Sydney Airport Line - North Shore Line

 
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?

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  M636C Minister for Railways

There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
james.au
The reason is that the line branches off on the wrong side of Central Electric.

Also the tunnels emerge too close to the station.

You can't physically get a train from Platform 22 to Platform 16.

It would require a huge ladder of crossovers between Central and Liverpool Street conflicting with every other movement.

Had the tunnel emerged South of the flying junctions, trains could have been routed to the North Shore and the Northern line via Chatswood using connections already in place.

The unused platforms at Redfern could have been incorporated as well, giving better connections to the West.

M636C
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks @M636C
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
james.au

I don't think it is a technical issue. It is an operational one. It is more efficient to run the trains the way they are run. To do what you suggest means you block off a train running from the Inner west, Bankstown and Main south line.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
The reason is that the line branches off on the wrong side of Central Electric.

Also the tunnels emerge too close to the station.

You can't physically get a train from Platform 22 to Platform 16.

It would require a huge ladder of crossovers between Central and Liverpool Street conflicting with every other movement.

Had the tunnel emerged South of the flying junctions, trains could have been routed to the North Shore and the Northern line via Chatswood using connections already in place.

The unused platforms at Redfern could have been incorporated as well, giving better connections to the West.

M636C
M636C

It is possible due to crossovers on the northern side of Central station. But it would cause way to many conflicting moves to be viable.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I was pro this when the line was being built, but ignoring the cross overs operationally I think it would have been messy for City Rail and not helped the untangle bit.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Connecting it with the North Shore line may have been a better option. Maybe they could've used the unused 26/ 27 platforms. Or maybe a better option would have been to use the Botany Goods Line for part of the Airport Line.

Since they built the Airport Line the way the government of the time, they needed to have a connection from the South Coast main lines to the lower Wolli Creek platforms for a direct "interurban" service.

PS: Would you count these Oscars that do "interurban runs", as interurban runs, or Outer Suburban runs (OS), as they do have OS run numbers?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I used to think a direct connection would be good, but having travelled a bit now no. For those who will say I'd use if I didn't have to change trains, its just an excuse and I doubt it would make a difference and not all lines can have a direct connection (heard same in Brisbane too). It would also be more disruptive for the network.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
james.au
Crossover issues aside, there may also have been a capacity issue as well - could the North Shore Line have handled the extra trains without having to have other services redirected around the City Circle?

Most Airport lines that I have encountered require at least one change of train somewhere for most travellers. The Singapore Airport line only takes you 2 stops, then you have to change to another service that is usually packed to get into the CBD. Mind you, its much cheaper.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Crossover issues aside, there may also have been a capacity issue as well - could the North Shore Line have handled the extra trains without having to have other services redirected around the City Circle?

mikesyd
Then maybe, now no!
  darcyj Chief Train Controller

The glaring need for the Airport Line is not the inability to run trains to North Sydney (or anywhere else for that matter), but the low capacity generally, and particularly on the weekend.  Saturday and Sunday mornings are huge for arriving and departing international flyers, whilst the peak times for domestic business travellers also coincide with peak times for suburban commuters, making the already-crowded trains unattractive.  The logistics of movement of people and their luggage at Central is also a poorly-designed hazard.

There is a way to increase airport train capacity but without a corresponding investment in capital works at Central, I am loathe to suggest it.  There needs to be two additional elevators on P22/23, to spread the load.

Additional trains can be run between Central and Kingsgrove Turnback.  Utilise P22 as a turnback platform for two train in-between the Down Bankstown services.  Train on the Up uses 850 points to cross to the Down Airport, and 636 points to cross to Down Illawarra Local to terminate at P22.  A new crew is waiting for it so the dwell is 2 minutes only.

An extra 8tph in both directions, serving the airport stations without carrying a load of suburban commuters and schoolkids, can be added between 09:00 and 16:00 by this configuration.  I haven't yet analysed the timetable to see how many could be added in peak, but it would be >0 and anything is good.
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
I agree there is a real hassle with the lifts at Central. My arrival last year was at 6am from Dubai. The plane was an hour late throwing me right into the peak hour commute over the Bridge (my relatives live at Chatswood). I was embarrassed by the trouble my baggage caused. I will be on the same plane at the end of this month and think that if the plane is late again I will sit an hour at the airport although not pleasant after a 14 hour flight.
Even my flight in from Christchurch last month threw me into the end of the evening commute and a lady sharing the lifts at Central, also with baggage, commented it was difficult during rush hour. My reply - the airlines have no thought of that.
However another real problem is the double deck cars, forcing travellers with luggage into the end cars, and sometimes I have had to watch that on a C set I do not end up in the cars with no end compartment. Visitors would not be aware of that until after they have boarded.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The glaring need for the Airport Line is not the inability to run trains to North Sydney (or anywhere else for that matter), but the low capacity generally, and particularly on the weekend.  Saturday and Sunday mornings are huge for arriving and departing international flyers, whilst the peak times for domestic business travellers also coincide with peak times for suburban commuters, making the already-crowded trains unattractive.  The logistics of movement of people and their luggage at Central is also a poorly-designed hazard.

There is a way to increase airport train capacity but without a corresponding investment in capital works at Central, I am loathe to suggest it.  There needs to be two additional elevators on P22/23, to spread the load.

Additional trains can be run between Central and Kingsgrove Turnback.  Utilise P22 as a turnback platform for two train in-between the Down Bankstown services.  Train on the Up uses 850 points to cross to the Down Airport, and 636 points to cross to Down Illawarra Local to terminate at P22.  A new crew is waiting for it so the dwell is 2 minutes only.

An extra 8tph in both directions, serving the airport stations without carrying a load of suburban commuters and schoolkids, can be added between 09:00 and 16:00 by this configuration.  I haven't yet analysed the timetable to see how many could be added in peak, but it would be >0 and anything is good.
darcyj
Why not get some single decks with 3 doors and increase capacity from 20 DD's to 20 DD's + 8-10 SD's per hour. Run them from Ashfield all the way around to Kingsgrove via the airport line.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

A simple way of increasing the capacity of the airport line is to run more trains via sydneham.

After the bankstown is made a metro and extension of the east hills quadding to east hills itself (to cater for xpt and xplorer trains that use this route) , some good stopping patterns would be.
OFF PEAK
- 4tph city circle to macarthur via east hills and sydenham.  (express stopping pattern)
- 4tph city circle to campbeltown via airport (express stopping pattern)

- 4tph city circle to revesby via airport (all stops)
- 4TPH city circle to kingsgrove via airport (all stops, possibility of using 4 car trains)

that means 12 tph to and from the airport

Peak
- 6tph city circle to mcarthur via east hills and sydenham.  (express stopping pattern)
- 6tph city circle to campbeltown via airport (express stopping pattern)

- 6tph city circle to revesby via airport (all stops)
- 4TPH city circle to kingsgrove via airport (all stops, possibility of using 4 car trains)
that means 16 tph at the airport, which is enough.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

A simple way of increasing the capacity of the airport line is to run more trains via sydneham.

After the bankstown is made a metro and extension of the east hills quadding to east hills itself (to cater for xpt and xplorer trains that use this route) , some good stopping patterns would be.
OFF PEAK
- 4tph city circle to macarthur via east hills and sydenham.  (express stopping pattern)
- 4tph city circle to campbeltown via airport (express stopping pattern)

- 4tph city circle to revesby via airport (all stops)
- 4TPH city circle to kingsgrove via airport (all stops, possibility of using 4 car trains)

that means 12 tph to and from the airport

Peak
- 6tph city circle to mcarthur via east hills and sydenham.  (express stopping pattern)
- 6tph city circle to campbeltown via airport (express stopping pattern)

- 6tph city circle to revesby via airport (all stops)
- 4TPH city circle to kingsgrove via airport (all stops, possibility of using 4 car trains)
that means 16 tph at the airport, which is enough.
tazzer96

This already occurs on the current timetable. Post Bankstown conversion to metro it will just allow a lot more services to run express to Campbelltown via Sydenham.

As for quadding to east hills. For what reason would there be to do this. There is only about 10 diesel services a day that run via east hills.
  Ashjayeen13 Station Master

Location: Brisbane, Australia
The glaring need for the Airport Line is not the inability to run trains to North Sydney (or anywhere else for that matter), but the low capacity generally, and particularly on the weekend.  Saturday and Sunday mornings are huge for arriving and departing international flyers, whilst the peak times for domestic business travellers also coincide with peak times for suburban commuters, making the already-crowded trains unattractive.  The logistics of movement of people and their luggage at Central is also a poorly-designed hazard.

There is a way to increase airport train capacity but without a corresponding investment in capital works at Central, I am loathe to suggest it.  There needs to be two additional elevators on P22/23, to spread the load.

Additional trains can be run between Central and Kingsgrove Turnback.  Utilise P22 as a turnback platform for two train in-between the Down Bankstown services.  Train on the Up uses 850 points to cross to the Down Airport, and 636 points to cross to Down Illawarra Local to terminate at P22.  A new crew is waiting for it so the dwell is 2 minutes only.

An extra 8tph in both directions, serving the airport stations without carrying a load of suburban commuters and schoolkids, can be added between 09:00 and 16:00 by this configuration.  I haven't yet analysed the timetable to see how many could be added in peak, but it would be >0 and anything is good.
Why not get some single decks with 3 doors and increase capacity from 20 DD's to 20 DD's + 8-10 SD's per hour. Run them from Ashfield all the way around to Kingsgrove via the airport line.
simstrain
So you basically are saying that the Sydney network should get some of the new Brisbane trains.
  Ashjayeen13 Station Master

Location: Brisbane, Australia
There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
The reason is that the line branches off on the wrong side of Central Electric.

Also the tunnels emerge too close to the station.

You can't physically get a train from Platform 22 to Platform 16.

It would require a huge ladder of crossovers between Central and Liverpool Street conflicting with every other movement.

Had the tunnel emerged South of the flying junctions, trains could have been routed to the North Shore and the Northern line via Chatswood using connections already in place.

The unused platforms at Redfern could have been incorporated as well, giving better connections to the West.

M636C
Really, this is not a big deal. If you look at the satellite image on Google Maps, only two tracks need to have a crossing.

The Up New Southern (refer to the trackplan on the Wikipedia page for Central) needs a crossover right at the tunnel exit crossing over and joining the Up Illawarra track from Redfern platform 9. Then trains can cross to the left using the new crossing, then again, and again, and again onto platform 16.

Or, what could happen is the trains could cross over to platform 20, then move across a new crossover between the tracks on platform 19 and 20. But, I guess this would disrupt a lot of traffic on platforms 19, 18, 17 and 16. So I guess the first option is probably better, both because it is spaced away from the station, and also because it uses the track from Redfern platform 9 (which is not used much).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The glaring need for the Airport Line is not the inability to run trains to North Sydney (or anywhere else for that matter), but the low capacity generally, and particularly on the weekend.  Saturday and Sunday mornings are huge for arriving and departing international flyers, whilst the peak times for domestic business travellers also coincide with peak times for suburban commuters, making the already-crowded trains unattractive.  The logistics of movement of people and their luggage at Central is also a poorly-designed hazard.

There is a way to increase airport train capacity but without a corresponding investment in capital works at Central, I am loathe to suggest it.  There needs to be two additional elevators on P22/23, to spread the load.

Additional trains can be run between Central and Kingsgrove Turnback.  Utilise P22 as a turnback platform for two train in-between the Down Bankstown services.  Train on the Up uses 850 points to cross to the Down Airport, and 636 points to cross to Down Illawarra Local to terminate at P22.  A new crew is waiting for it so the dwell is 2 minutes only.

An extra 8tph in both directions, serving the airport stations without carrying a load of suburban commuters and schoolkids, can be added between 09:00 and 16:00 by this configuration.  I haven't yet analysed the timetable to see how many could be added in peak, but it would be >0 and anything is good.
Why not get some single decks with 3 doors and increase capacity from 20 DD's to 20 DD's + 8-10 SD's per hour. Run them from Ashfield all the way around to Kingsgrove via the airport line.
So you basically are saying that the Sydney network should get some of the new Brisbane trains.
Ashjayeen13
No I am saying something more like the original Bradfield car. Brisbanes, Perth's, Adelaides and Melbournes trains are all too long. 4 doors, 3.1 metres wide and 20 metres in length just like the original SD's in Sydney. This is also to supplement the DD's and not replace DD's. It's not like it hasn't happened before in Sydney.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
The reason is that the line branches off on the wrong side of Central Electric.

Also the tunnels emerge too close to the station.

You can't physically get a train from Platform 22 to Platform 16.

It would require a huge ladder of crossovers between Central and Liverpool Street conflicting with every other movement.

Had the tunnel emerged South of the flying junctions, trains could have been routed to the North Shore and the Northern line via Chatswood using connections already in place.

The unused platforms at Redfern could have been incorporated as well, giving better connections to the West.

M636C
Really, this is not a big deal. If you look at the satellite image on Google Maps, only two tracks need to have a crossing.

The Up New Southern (refer to the trackplan on the Wikipedia page for Central) needs a crossover right at the tunnel exit crossing over and joining the Up Illawarra track from Redfern platform 9. Then trains can cross to the left using the new crossing, then again, and again, and again onto platform 16.

Or, what could happen is the trains could cross over to platform 20, then move across a new crossover between the tracks on platform 19 and 20. But, I guess this would disrupt a lot of traffic on platforms 19, 18, 17 and 16. So I guess the first option is probably better, both because it is spaced away from the station, and also because it uses the track from Redfern platform 9 (which is not used much).
Ashjayeen13

If the train has gotten to Redfern then it has passed the tunnel entrances for the airport line.

To much interference to the network. Get the passenger to change at Central is much better for frequency and capacity.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
james.au
Airport is Sector 2.
North Shore is Sector 1.


It is best to keep the sectors separate.

Central now has lifts at the Northern end of the platforms.
Interchange between Sectors 1 and 2 would be improved if lifts were provided at the southern end of the platforms.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Why not get some single decks with 3 doors and increase capacity from 20 DD's to 20 DD's + 8-10 SD's per hour. Run them from Ashfield all the way around to Kingsgrove via the airport line.
So you basically are saying that the Sydney network should get some of the new Brisbane trains.
No I am saying something more like the original Bradfield car. Brisbanes, Perth's, Adelaides and Melbournes trains are all too long. 4 doors, 3.1 metres wide and 20 metres in length just like the original SD's in Sydney. This is also to supplement the DD's and not replace DD's. It's not like it hasn't happened before in Sydney.
simstrain
You cannot use SD trains in Sydney to a greater advantage than DD's because you cannot have middle doors due to the frequent large gaps at many stations. The Metro will have straight platforms on the new section and existing U/G stations, but the Bankstown line needs to have a number of platforms rebuilt or modified.

So no, it hasn't happened before in Sydney.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Why not get some single decks with 3 doors and increase capacity from 20 DD's to 20 DD's + 8-10 SD's per hour. Run them from Ashfield all the way around to Kingsgrove via the airport line.
So you basically are saying that the Sydney network should get some of the new Brisbane trains.
No I am saying something more like the original Bradfield car. Brisbanes, Perth's, Adelaides and Melbournes trains are all too long. 4 doors, 3.1 metres wide and 20 metres in length just like the original SD's in Sydney. This is also to supplement the DD's and not replace DD's. It's not like it hasn't happened before in Sydney.
You cannot use SD trains in Sydney to a greater advantage than DD's because you cannot have middle doors due to the frequent large gaps at many stations. The Metro will have straight platforms on the new section and existing U/G stations, but the Bankstown line needs to have a number of platforms rebuilt or modified.

So no, it hasn't happened before in Sydney.
RTT_Rules

Except you can and it has happened before. In fact the system has slowly been getting slower without them in the system.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
There may be a thread on this, or it may be buried in a thread somewhere, but can someone tell me what the technical reason is for the inability to run trains from the airport line to Town Hall, Wynyard and onto North Sydney etc?
Airport is Sector 2.
North Shore is Sector 1.


It is best to keep the sectors separate.

Central now has lifts at the Northern end of the platforms.
Interchange between Sectors 1 and 2 would be improved if lifts were provided at the southern end of the platforms.
awsgc24
I'm pretty sure that the North Shore Line is part of Sector 3 and that Sector 1 was the Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra Line; the Sector and T numbers don't align.

Also, assuming that we can run single-deck trains at a theoretical maximum of 30tph (vs 20tph for the current double-deck setup), then as long as the total capacity of the eight-car single-deck train is at least two-thirds of a Waratah's, it's all good.

If you guys want, I can go mock it up over the weekend (if I have sufficient surplus care credits).

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