UK looks set to leave the EU

 
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...
What amazes me is the spite and venom being shown by the losing side of the referendum.

Democracy is ok as long as you agree with the result it seems.

Craig W
CraigW
Hardly venomous and certainly not as spiteful as those capable of gunning down an MP. That sort of conviction the world can do without.

Clearly the 1930s Fascist-Nationalist playbook remains effective. There wasn’t any substance in the pro-exit argument. It played on emotion, xenophobia and bigotry. Watch democracy without responsibility Rolling Eyes

England will still need immigrants as I don’t see those ‘disaffected’ locals knocking down doors to work in hospitals, aged care facilities and Seven 11s. In reality it probably won’t make any difference to them except they get to wallow in their ignorance.

On a historic note during WW2 the Scots treated their Czech and Polish allies with far more civility than experienced elsewhere. Good luck to them.

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  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
England will still need immigrants as I don’t see those ‘disaffected’ locals knocking down doors to work in hospitals, aged care facilities and Seven 11s. In reality it probably won’t make any difference to them except they get to wallow in their ignorance.
Groundrelay
Wages for the bottom half here (and in the UK) have been stagnant since the early 90's - this is the primary reason why poor areas of the UK voted so strongly against remaining in the EU: Discussed further here in this interesting Washington Post article.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
England will still need immigrants as I don’t see those ‘disaffected’ locals knocking down doors to work in hospitals, aged care facilities and Seven 11s. In reality it probably won’t make any difference to them except they get to wallow in their ignorance.
Wages for the bottom half here (and in the UK) have been stagnant since the early 90's - this is the primary reason why poor areas of the UK voted so strongly against remaining in the EU: Discussed further here in this interesting Washington Post article.
don_dunstan
Don it is not just about rich and poor. It is also to do with misguided English Nationalism, because Scotland and Northern Ireland which has many poor industrial areas voted to Remain even Newcastle and Manchester voted to remain. Whilst Areas such as Hart, Vale of Oxfordshire, Epping Forest, Epsom & Ewell, Maldon, Spelthorne, Broxbourne and many other areas in the East and South East England which are amongst the richest in Europe voted to leave.

Wages for the bottom half here (and in the UK) have been stagnant since the early 90's.

And that is Eastern European Migrants fault, not Tory and Labour Goverrnments?

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
...
What amazes me is the spite and venom being shown by the losing side of the referendum.

Democracy is ok as long as you agree with the result it seems.

Craig W
Hardly venomous and certainly not as spiteful as those capable of gunning down an MP. That sort of conviction the world can do without.

Clearly the 1930s Fascist-Nationalist playbook remains effective. There wasn’t any substance in the pro-exit argument. It played on emotion, xenophobia and bigotry. Watch democracy without responsibility Rolling Eyes

England will still need immigrants as I don’t see those ‘disaffected’ locals knocking down doors to work in hospitals, aged care facilities and Seven 11s. In reality it probably won’t make any difference to them except they get to wallow in their ignorance.

On a historic note during WW2 the Scots treated their Czech and Polish allies with far more civility than experienced elsewhere. Good luck to them.
Groundrelay
I could not have put it better my self. Thanks Groundrelay. I have mentioned earlier about why it is not just about Democracy at stake, but people are facing abuse. I have West Indian parents and my family has been through what Eastern Europeans and Asylum Seekers are going through now, but that is lost on the likes of Craig who uphold the rights of people like Farage to say what the hell they want without being challenged and think its a good thing. Its OK until they are on the receiving end of it.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
"Sarah Hanson-Young of the Greens has conviction, but my money is that you would not praise her."


Of course she does.  "Tragedies happen, Accidents happen'

What amazes me is the spite and venom being shown by the losing side of the referendum.

Democracy is ok as long as you agree with the result it seems.

Craig W
CraigW
Oh so calling Farage a Turd is spite and Venom but him spreading bile about Eastern European migrants and Asylum Seekers is AOK. I would tell you about my families experience whilst growing up in the UK, but it would be wasted on you, you just would not understand. The fact that you state "Tragedies Happen, Accidents Happen" in response to an MP being killed by a Right Wing F..Knuckle says it all really. UK and England in particular is heading to a dark place.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Democracy is ok as long as you agree with the result it seems.

Craig W
Democracy is fine - it means that if you win it gives you the right to run around the streets abusing anyone with a funny sounding surname or slightly swarthy skin.
bingley hall
In this instance!
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

"Sarah Hanson-Young of the Greens has conviction, but my money is that you would not praise her."


Of course she does.  "Tragedies happen, Accidents happen'

What amazes me is the spite and venom being shown by the losing side of the referendum.

Democracy is ok as long as you agree with the result it seems.

Craig W
Oh so calling Farage a Turd is spite and Venom but him spreading bile about Eastern European migrants and Asylum Seekers is AOK. I would tell you about my families experience whilst growing up in the UK, but it would be wasted on you, you just would not understand. The fact that you state "Tragedies Happen, Accidents Happen" in response to an MP being killed by a Right Wing F..Knuckle says it all really. UK and England in particular is heading to a dark place.

Michael
mejhammers1
There is no proof at all that the MP was killed by anybody other than a mentally ill person. It is amazing that when there is an a terrorist attack anywhere else in the world people like you and the ubiquitous Ground relay are quick to point the blame anywhere else but in this case you offer an instant sheeting home of the blame.

People vote how they do for a myriad of different reasons and you would do well to remember that before you start - yet again- on your patronising, ill informed tirade.

I put "tragedies happen, accidents happen" to the fact that SHY was mentioned as having conviction. You might do well to remember exactly why she said that too.

Craigw
  woodford Chief Commissioner

some thoughts from an a bystander................

A woodford opinion, you have been warned!

1: Referendums in the UK are not legally binding, the UK goverenment does not have to do anything about it.

2: The vote was close if it was 60/40 percent the situation would be quite different, at the current state of affairs the UK government would be wise not to make any moves without doing a good deal of research.

3. From what I have read so far, there is a lot of unknowns, people as usual are panicing from  a position of really poor information, before anyone starts throwing anything around.we need to wait and see what pans out.

4 Racism is a common problem everywhere, the UK still suffers from a "class system, this in the end is another form of racism. such problems in the end cannot be ignored. Leaving the EU will NOT solve this kind of issue, if its such a serious problem the only way to improve the situation is a public education campaign.

woodford
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
England will still need immigrants as I don’t see those ‘disaffected’ locals knocking down doors to work in hospitals, aged care facilities and Seven 11s. In reality it probably won’t make any difference to them except they get to wallow in their ignorance.
Groundrelay
In the case of 7/11 here in Australia, one of the things that was discovered was that the average franchise will not employ local residents because they can't be underpaid and exploited in the same way that people illegally working on student visas can.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I still think that the main reason why people wanted out was because they are living in diabolical poverty; racism against people from eastern Europe might have been a factor too but by and large the poverty of the voters (and their lack of access to things like education) was the best predictor of them voting to 'leave'.

Communities still devastated by Thatcherism voted to leave...

And people with less money and less education overwhelmingly voted to leave.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
There is no proof at all that the MP was killed by anybody other than a mentally ill person. It is amazing that when there is an a terrorist attack anywhere else in the world people like you and the ubiquitous Ground relay are quick to point the blame anywhere else but in this case you offer an instant sheeting home of the blame.

.......

Craigw
CraigW
If everyone is prepared to agree that there is no proof that the Lindt Cafe siege was carried out by anybody other than a mentally ill person then I might be inclined to agree with you.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...There is no proof at all that the MP was killed by anybody other than a mentally ill person. It is amazing that when there is an a terrorist attack anywhere else in the world people like you and the ubiquitous Ground relay are quick to point the blame anywhere else but in this case you offer an instant sheeting home of the blame. ...Craigw
CraigW
To kill someone in cold blood you must have lost you faculties or are so tied up in your convictions and hatred you might as well have. If an MP (or anyone) was gunned down by someone associated with one particular religion would you be so circumspect? Surprised

The vote wasn’t a landslide. Jingoistic nationalist rhetoric finds easy targets but it appears more than a few voters didn’t appreciate the ramifications.

Long after the euphoria, when the UK or whatever is left of it eventually leaves the EU, it won’t change the fortunes of those on the bottom quartile.

Who to blame then?

P.S. You still can’t seem to post without personal slurs Razz
  M636C Minister for Railways

There is no proof at all that the MP was killed by anybody other than a mentally ill person. It is amazing that when there is an a terrorist attack anywhere else in the world people like you and the ubiquitous Ground relay are quick to point the blame anywhere else but in this case you offer an instant sheeting home of the blame.

.......

Craigw
If everyone is prepared to agree that there is no proof that the Lindt Cafe siege was carried out by anybody other than a mentally ill person then I might be inclined to agree with you.
bingley hall
The Lindt Café siege was carried out by a loser wannabe who had decided that pretending to be a terrorist was a good idea. He apparently was upset by Channel 7 but when he got there to occupy the studio found there were too many security guards for him to get away with it. So he occupied a café opposite the studio.

He wasn't accepted by the local Moslem community (nor was he back in Iran).

While he said he was with ISIS, he had to ask the police for an ISIS flag, not having one with him...

While he may not have been diagnosed as mentally ill he may have been a psychopath.

But it is fairly clear that he was not following orders from any central terrorist organisation.

Just like the UK political assassin, he may have been influenced by publicity from a cause he favoured...

But in neither case was the perpetrator actually "radicalised", the cause was just a convenient hook for existing resentment and feelings of marginalisation.

M636C
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The Lindt Cafe was an act designed to terrorise the hostages and the public - he might not have had links to ISIS, but he sure as hell tried to convince people through request and action that he did.

The guy that shot a politician in Britain was nothing more than murderer.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
"Sarah Hanson-Young of the Greens has conviction, but my money is that you would not praise her."


Of course she does.  "Tragedies happen, Accidents happen'

What amazes me is the spite and venom being shown by the losing side of the referendum.

Democracy is ok as long as you agree with the result it seems.

Craig W
Oh so calling Farage a Turd is spite and Venom but him spreading bile about Eastern European migrants and Asylum Seekers is AOK. I would tell you about my families experience whilst growing up in the UK, but it would be wasted on you, you just would not understand. The fact that you state "Tragedies Happen, Accidents Happen" in response to an MP being killed by a Right Wing F..Knuckle says it all really. UK and England in particular is heading to a dark place.

Michael
There is no proof at all that the MP was killed by anybody other than a mentally ill person. It is amazing that when there is an a terrorist attack anywhere else in the world people like you and the ubiquitous Ground relay are quick to point the blame anywhere else but in this case you offer an instant sheeting home of the blame.

People vote how they do for a myriad of different reasons and you would do well to remember that before you start - yet again- on your patronising, ill informed tirade.

I put "tragedies happen, accidents happen" to the fact that SHY was mentioned as having conviction. You might do well to remember exactly why she said that too.

Craigw
CraigW
There is no proof at all that the MP was killed by anybody other than a mentally ill person.

Yes who had ties with Pro Apartheid, Neo Nazi and British Nationalist Groups. He was shouting Britain First and this happened just 12 days before the referendum, you join the dots.

It is amazing that when there is an a terrorist attack anywhere else in the world people like you and the ubiquitous Ground relay are quick to point the blame anywhere else but in this case you offer an instant sheeting home of the blame.

Craig take a bex and have a good lie down. Nowhere in this blog has Groundrelay or myself have absolved blame on those murderous ISIS a..holes, I am making the point that not all Moslems are murderous terrorists.  I have live in the area of Waltham Forest in East London for 16 years from 1975 to 1991. Waltham Forest has the 3rd highest Moslem Population in the UK and lets me tell you all sections of the community has lived in harmony. Farage and his ilk are stirring the pot and you know it, and people are on the receiving end of vile abuse.

People vote how they do for a myriad of different reasons and you would do well to remember that before you start - yet again- on your patronising, ill informed tirade.

And your rant is informed? This was a referendum on leaving or staying within the EU. The majority of the leave votes reasoning was because of Immigration. That was overwhelmingly the main reason why people voted that way. And fanning the flames of anti-migrant sentiment is your mate Farage. If you think that I am patronising then that's your call, but really its of no consequence to me. There is the greater problem of minorites being targetted as as result of this election by far-right groups of which my sisters are of one. You see I am English Born with West Indian parents and my fear is for my family in the UK who are black. So forgive me if I curse Mr Farage, and is derisive of your comments about my being a terrorist sympathiser, because you know my family have been on the receiving on of this BS before, thanks to f..knuckles like Mr Farage.

Michael
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Democracy is what democracy is, why people vote one way or another is largely irrelevant, democracy only cares about the direction of the vote, who gives or takes directions is not part of it.

The losing side always claims the winning side was misdirected, that's just the way minority thought works.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting BBC video on the topic: The immigrants who voted to leave.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Billybaxter and Michael you need to reread the post I made about Farange again. You are both well wide of the point.

Michael you in particular misunderstand, equating Farange to Hitler? Really? I mean really, really? Hitler would LOVE the EU, his Reich would only have to take over one government, one that's not even elected at that, one that doesn't even have its own army ... yet...

My post mentioned conviction, but it wasn't about the conviction, it was about what that conviction meant. How is Farange different from nearly every politician you could name? He entered the EU parliament on a platform to leave. If he failed to leave his backers would not reelect him - out of a job, if he succeeded (and it looks as though he has) he is out of a job.

Near every other politician you could name sticking to their conviction would not normally see them out. Billy, Sarah Hanson-Young standing by her environmental convictions could presumably see her gain more following, more votes and GAURANTEE her position, not cause her to lose it... Rolling Eyes As it happens, I don't support her, I think she's a nutcase, I can say that, I have at least had first hand experience of being around her before she entered parliament and after.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Billybaxter and Michael you need to reread the post I made about Farange again. You are both well wide of the point.

Michael you in particular misunderstand, equating Farange to Hitler? Really? I mean really, really? Hitler would LOVE the EU, his Reich would only have to take over one government, one that's not even elected at that, one that doesn't even have its own army ... yet...

My post mentioned conviction, but it wasn't about the conviction, it was about what that conviction meant. How is Farange different from nearly every politician you could name? He entered the EU parliament on a platform to leave. If he failed to leave his backers would not reelect him - out of a job, if he succeeded (and it looks as though he has) he is out of a job.

Near every other politician you could name sticking to their conviction would not normally see them out. Billy, Sarah Hanson-Young standing by her environmental convictions could presumably see her gain more following, more votes and GAURANTEE her position, not cause her to lose it... Rolling Eyes As it happens, I don't support her, I think she's a nutcase, I can say that, I have at least had first hand experience of being around her before she entered parliament and after.
Aaron
Michael you in particular misunderstand, equating Farange to Hitler? Really? I mean really, really? Hitler would LOVE the EU, his Reich would only have to take over one government, one that's not even elected at that, one that doesn't even have its own army ... yet...

What are you talking about? The EU Parliament is elected, every 4 years, what the hell are you talking about. That is yet another lie. Mr Farage himself is a member of the EU Parlliament, but I digress. I did not compare Farage to Hitler, I was merely pointing out that Conviction it not always a good thing or a good outcome comes from it. I could have easily said Robert Mugabe, or Pol Pot etc, etc. You going on about Hitler would like the EU is exactly the kind of non arguments that Farage was trotting out to discredited the EU. I do not need a historical lecture about Europe in the 1940's thank you very much.

My post mentioned conviction, but it wasn't about the conviction, it was about what that conviction meant. How is Farange different from nearly every politician you could name? He entered the EU parliament on a platform to leave. If he failed to leave his backers would not reelect him - out of a job, if he succeeded (and it looks as though he has) he is out of a job.

And you like that conviction, demonising East European Migrants and asylum seekers to achieve his goals. You like that and I don't. I think that he is a d..khead and the far right groups in the UK are emboldened by his stance.

Michael
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
The Lindt Cafe was an act designed to terrorise the hostages and the public - he might not have had links to ISIS, but he sure as hell tried to convince people through request and action that he did.

The guy that shot a politician in Britain was nothing more than murderer.
Aaron
A contrived distinction Rolling Eyes

Both nobodies, by most accounts mentally unbalanced, who wrapped themselves in the cloak of a cause and committed cold blooded public murder evoking the name of their cause. Both sought to terrorise.

Michael you in particular misunderstand, equating Farange to Hitler? Really? I mean really, really? Hitler would LOVE the EU, ...
Aaron
In this context I'd say any Farange / Hitler comparison is based on the similar tactics - overt nationalism, perceived threats to racial/social purity and xenophobia leading to violence and innocent victims.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
I think she's a nutcase, I can say that, I have at least had first hand experience of being around her before she entered parliament and after.
Aaron
I'm sure Jamie Briggs is saying the same kind of thing about the woman that just ousted him Razz
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Rebekha is okay, she'll go alright, probably hold the seat if she's smart. Damian Carey was the nutcase.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Rebekha is okay, she'll go alright, probably hold the seat if she's smart. Damian Carey was the nutcase.
Aaron
I think the scare campaign about some NXT candidates was unwarranted... they're allowed to have a few nutty beliefs about acupuncture or whatever.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
No Don, public policy makers should only be allowed to deal in evidence based medicine.

Australia cannot be allowed to have in parliament a person that believes acupuncture of genitals cures infertility and results in fewer unhealthy babies.

We need to keep our science (especially medicine) soundly evidence based. I was lucky enough to have a long, private, conversation with Dr Matthew Wright, the Xenophon candidate who (somewhat unfortunately) couldn't unseat Christopher Pyne.

Damian Carey was one of my local candidates. He would have gone last, and only because I had to number him, but none of the other candidates (a red, a green, a blue and a religious) were up to scratch so my paper for the first time was returned blank.

Thankfully, Matthew Wright was on board with me in my thoughts that non evidence based medicine (which incidentally also includes some 'western' medicine) ought not be picked up on the Medicare tab. Had I been registered in Sturt, near on that point alone he would have had my vote.

* Mod, maybe move Don and I's musings to the election thread, it's now OT here
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Aaron - while I might not agree with someone's opinion about a particular topic I don't have a problem with them being in a position of authority as long as they're not actually the ones making the policies, that is, that a properly scientifically based consensus is reached. So I wouldn't have had a problem with Damian Carey as long as he wasn't trying to get a bill through to subsidise acupuncture or some other kind of alternative therapies at the taxpayer expense. And I heartily agree with you about Dr Wright, I do sincerely hope he runs against Pyne again because I think a genuine community member with intelligence and conviction like that will eventually win out over a selfish party hack - it was unfortunate that preference flows appeared to work against him on this occasion but he did put in an incredibly strong race that hopefully put the fear of God into The Poodle.

I think you also have to look at the bigger picture with NXT. I have gone on record here before as saying that I don't particularly like many of Nick's ideas - the ridiculous brain fart that he had a while back about young people being allowed to access their super to leverage into residential property was a particularly bad one which I think he's since dropped. I was also less than impressed when he was in state politics in SA and teamed up the Ann Bressington, someone whose fringe views frankly made people like Damian Carey look very mild by comparison.

But what NXT successfully managed to do was to show the major parties (and the Greens) that people here in SA are extremely unhappy with the state of affairs and they're crying out for change - change that can't or won't be provided by continuing to vote for the two mainstream parties. We are lucky enough to actually have a reasonably free and democratic society so we can actually express our anger with the leadership by telling them they both stink at the ballot box and personally I think what happened on Saturday was a wonderful thing.

Also, I don't hold it against anyone for putting in a blank form - friends of mine who reside in the very marginal seat of Corrangamite (VIC) did the same thing because they couldn't stand to vote for ANY of the House of Representative candidates who were standing... fair enough!

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