Problems with steam trains in suburban area

 
  MrBiggles Station Master

I been told by insiders that on Saturday morning 23rd July that 3 different Metro drivers from 3 different trains have lodged "near miss" reports.
On all three occasions it was a near miss with trespassers carrying cameras. On all three occasions it was around the time that the Steamrail snow special was due.
These "near miss" reports don't just go to Metro. They get forwarded on to PTV & Worksafe. Any driver that is involved in a near miss is entitled to sick leave if required. Sick leave taken as a result of a near miss may be covered by Worksafe under certain circumstances.
If people want to keep seeing steam and other special trains running in the future, then I suggest this minority of idiots get there act together and keep off the tracks.
Being on the platforms of closed stations also counts as trespassing.

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  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The problem is not just the suburbs. And it is not only the bad railfan, most seem to be clueless members of the public.

Why stop and ban steam locos, I'd say ban ALL trains, pour tarmac and  paint a white line down the middle (joking)

To me the problem is not the steamtrain, but the tresspassers. Deal with the actual problem !

Regards,
David Head
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The problem is not just the suburbs. And it is not only the bad railfan, most seem to be clueless members of the public.

Why stop and ban steam locos, I'd say ban ALL trains, pour tarmac and  paint a white line down the middle (joking)

To me the problem is not the steamtrain, but the tresspassers. Deal with the actual problem !

Regards,
David Head
dthead
Sadly, that is not how the nanny state works. They will try no end of idiotic alternatives (including banning steam ?) rather than address the real problem. It will only require one fatality and that will be it............!!

Take the graffiti and carjacking problems at the moment. If the courts handed out the maximum penalties that the law allows many of these offences (and certainly those committed by repeat offenders) would cease overnight.

An adaption of Churchill's famous words in relation to the Americans in one of the WWs applies:

'One can always rely on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.'
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
The same nanny state supporters who banned the red rattler specials no doubt.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
The problem is not just the suburbs. And it is not only the bad railfan, most seem to be clueless members of the public.

Why stop and ban steam locos, I'd say ban ALL trains, pour tarmac and  paint a white line down the middle (joking)

To me the problem is not the steamtrain, but the tresspassers. Deal with the actual problem !

Regards,
David Head
Sadly, that is not how the nanny state works. They will try no end of idiotic alternatives (including banning steam ?) rather than address the real problem. It will only require one fatality and that will be it............!!

Take the graffiti and carjacking problems at the moment. If the courts handed out the maximum penalties that the law allows many of these offences (and certainly those committed by repeat offenders) would cease overnight.

An adaption of Churchill's famous words in relation to the Americans in one of the WWs applies:

'One can always rely on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.'
YM-Mundrabilla
The NT tried this approach for its juvenile offenders, though it seems to be on the way out now.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The NT tried this approach for its juvenile offenders, though it seems to be on the way out now.
"mikesyd"
YM-Mundrabilla said, "the maximum penalties that the law allows" (my emphasis). The law does not allow the torture we have seen in NT.
  Loco Administrator Railpage 2 Developer

Location: Melbourne
I'd like to think railfans with cameras are fairly smart at what they do these days. Steamrail actively promote to the community of the need to ensure railway corridors are kept clear - the bottom part of the Facebook post from Saturday, which also sits on the front page of the website -

*** IMPORTANT - If you are seeing the train lineside, please ensure you DO NOT enter the railway corridor at any time, ensuring you are in a public place when doing so. If viewing from a station platform, please ensure you stand well clear of the edge of the platform and remain behind the yellow line. Your cooperation, particularly ensuring you are not in the railway corridor assists us in allowing The Snow Train to operate safely. Thank you. ***
Steamrail Victoria

The problem we are finding, it isn't the railfans. It is general public with their kids and their Smart Phones and Tablets wanting to get a shot of the steam train passing their town.

We can only be proactive in getting these messages out there. My advice to railfans, if you see someone whether it be another railfan or member of the general public where they shouldn't be, tell them! A joint effort by everyone may assist!

Regards,
Lionel.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Of course, the Nanny State will deny any responsibility for people on the tracks, but it would be interesting to ask who it was that allowed railway lines without fencing. In my younger days, lines were all fenced, and we knew that if you went over or through that fence you were gone a million if you were caught. The fence made it very clear where you could and could not go.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Fireman

The NT tried this approach for its juvenile offenders, though it seems to be on the way out now.
YM-Mundrabilla said, "the maximum penalties that the law allows" (my emphasis). The law does not allow the torture we have seen in NT.
Valvegear
Torture?  I saw CRIMINAL OFFENDERS (my emphasis) being treated as such.  A spit hood and restraints are only applied to a low life who is spitting and threatening people who are obliged to detain them.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
The kids that were being abused by prison guards up the in NT aren't saints by anyone's standards. But that's no justification for extreme (and illegal) solitary confinement, mechanical restraint and using tear gas as collective punishment. Just because you break the law doesn't mean it suddenly becomes open slather and you can be waterboarded. That's not justice, that's bullying.
  hot-axle-box Junior Train Controller

The kids that were being abused by prison guards up the in NT aren't saints by anyone's standards. But that's no justification for extreme (and illegal) solitary confinement, mechanical restraint and using tear gas as collective punishment. Just because you break the law doesn't mean it suddenly becomes open slather and you can be waterboarded. That's not justice, that's bullying.
LancedDendrite
Bull crap Lance if you are going to go around in life and do to others what shouldn't be done and just be general twat (even in jail) you need to be pulled into line. Jail used to be a form of punishment for criminals you know ! If you get jailed it should just be jail for the term of your conviction, and if you behave in there, then the thought of rehabilitation should be mused upon. Abuse the rights of others then you deserve what you have dished out in return.

This reply was instigated  by the person who lit the off topic fuse.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
We have posters here who apparently believe that anything goes with convicts.

The sentence they have received is deprivation of liberty.
In prison, you will go where you're told, do what you're told, and do it when you're told. And, you will stay there for a time over which you have no control.

Brutality has no place in a civilized society.
People who say that the treatment dished out in the NT recently is justified show themselves to be just as bad as the criminals. How can you possibly say, "You bashed and injured people which is bad, so we will do the same to you."?

The kids that were being abused by prison guards up the in NT aren't saints by anyone's standards. But that's no justification for extreme (and illegal) solitary confinement, mechanical restraint and using tear gas as collective punishment. Just because you break the law doesn't mean it suddenly becomes open slather and you can be waterboarded. That's not justice, that's bullying.
LancedDendrite
Well said; you are spot on. I have been inside Port Philip Prison ( to inspect a location in the prison laundry where a pump was needed), and I asked an Officer about the Library, the gym and so on. Many people think there should be nothing like this in there. The reason they are there  is simple. The purpose is to keep the inmates busy and occupied. If there is nothing to do, all that will happen is that they will fight and/or plan escapes. The aim is to send them to bed tired.
It is an awful sight, to turn to any point of the compass, and there is that bloody great wall. That, gentlemen, is the limit of your environment until someone other than you decides you can come out.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
I dont know how well this latest action will be received by everyone but it appears the NT Government is going to sue the inmates for damages they did to Prison property.
As most of the inmates barely have more than the clothes on their backs in or out of Jail, I cant see the Government getting much recompense out of it.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I dont know how well this latest action will be received by everyone but it appears the NT Government is going to sue the inmates for damages they did to Prison property.
"gordon_s1942'
That is the ultimate warped sense of humour.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I dont know how well this latest action will be received by everyone but it appears the NT Government is going to sue the inmates for damages they did to Prison property.
That is the ultimate warped sense of humour.
Valvegear
The very same government will, no doubt, pay for their legal aid to defend the case !!!
Only a lawyer could dream that one up................Rolling Eyes
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
The very same government will, no doubt, pay for their legal aid to defend the case !!!
Only a lawyer could dream that one up................Rolling Eyes
YM-Mundrabilla
Lawyers know how to look after their mates. Remember the old joke about how one lawyer moved into a town and was going broke until another lawyer moved there...
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Like St Peter and The Devil arguing about where the boundary fence between Heaven and Hell should be. St Peter finally lost it and threatened to sue whereupon The Devil simply asked, "Where are you going to find a lawyer?"
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Back on topic.   Most other rail networks around the country especially in Metro areas have fenced corridors.   For purely financial reasons Victoria decades ago elected to not provide or maintain fencing along its busy rail corridors.   Yes you can say the public at large should be using commonsense and not trespassing but there is no doubt in my mind that systems like Perth and Sydney that have extensively fenced rail networks have as a consequence far less problems related to unauthorized access, vandalism and graffiti etc.   Ye if someone really wants to get onto a rail reserve and wreak havoc they will regardless, but a fence that clearly signifies the area beyond it is a no go area will generally deter the the type of behaviour of people who act unthinkingly.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Before I helped us go off topic Embarassed I made the same point as Trainplanner. The fence says stop here.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Thanks valvegear.  I'm with you.  Just expanding your point further.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
There is a strange balance with railway related fencing in Victoria.

  1. On the one hand there are miles of unfenced rail tracks.
  2. On the other hand we replace perfectly good chainwire fences on platforms with ~ 2 metre high tubular steel fencing. There is also 2 metre tubular fencing in the middle of passenger platforms to protect MYKI machines. Talk about waste and overkill!


We can argue forever the need for fencing the rail corridor in the best traditions of the nanny state but, in practice, all this does is add enormous cost and transfer a level of liability from the individual to a government authority of some sort. A lawyer or coroner will always come up with a defect or require a so called improvement if Barry the Bogan injures himself illegally climbing the fence. Look at the razor wire on overhead stanchions which have unprotected ladders attached to them. Why rip yourself climbing a stanchion when a ladder is provided? We seem to have gone even further than the razor wire where some stanchions now have cardboard looking sleeves around them as well.

If Barry climbs the fence and gets run over, the argument will be that there should have been a fence and if there is a fence it should have been higher, a different colour or had razor wire on the top. If all of the foregoing have been provided and Barry rips his behind (haha) climbing over it, it will be deemed that there should have been warning signs at one metre intervals, a crocodile filled moat, guard dogs, an electric fence or a PSO (Protective Service Officer).

How long before there is an argument for a fence between every footpath and the road or between the sand and the water at the beach?

People must be taught to accept some responsibility for their own well-being.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
I for one say, Bring on the crocodile filled moats! There should be more of them!

(I'm in a rather feudal mood today.)
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I for one say, Bring on the crocodile filled moats! There should be more of them!

(I'm in a rather feudal mood today.)
Bogong
Sorry, no crocodiles available - they are Australian citizens and they get too high wages. I can, however, get a job lot of Alligators on 457 visas for you.
  Divine3801 Station Staff

Steam trains are nostalgic, majestic and unique in their heritage and rich with wonder for many of us.

However with these trespassing incidents that continue to occur, it is a deteriorating state of general social standards, many of these individuals haven't witnessed consequences/punishments that deter them from these behaviors.

Look at the rampant chaotic vandalism of rollingstock, assets and property related to our railway operations. When these individuals are caught, the punishment, rehabilitation applied to the culprits are inadequate and do not deter. In many cases these individuals are so repressed in their own individual existences they have no capacity to respect themselves, therefore are unable to develop an understanding of societal development and devoid of and cannot be trusted to model their lives independently.

This perspective would be unlikely related to those who follow heritage steam tours and arrogantly disregard boundaries. However, it demonstrates that these degenerative traits of individuals are not corrected or treated and therefore is allowing the manifestation of these criminals and persistent pests to continue to generate their distorted and twisted habits, leaving the civilized to absorb this mutation into our society.

As a result of our trespassing hobbyists of heritage steamrail tours, these individuals are even less likely to receive punishment. Reckless conduct to capture a unique view of photographic angle, they may be detected by lawmen and receive punishment, though relatively minor as a fine, fortunately they are more likely than the disease brought with paint spray cans to respect boundaries in the future.

Those however, who have no interest in respecting the boundaries determining the safety lines drawn for a clear reason are the most difficult to rehabilitate. They cannot, and in many other cases will not discern the consequences of their actions and hazardous risks.

For those without the capacity to reform from vandalism, as long as we do not have adequate punishments for a caught number of culprits we cannot eliminate this problem. There is no example to broadcast for eradicating this degenerative disorder. Even when they are caught, deterrence maybe achieved, but rehabilitation is essential to restore dignity and reform their existence, because they will only return to society and continue with their sickened habits and fall back onto their warped views.

Maturity is often lacking in those who breach boundaries for these heritage train tours, even the children are led to follow their parents into these breaches, this creates a cycle that persists in each generation.


Reading dthead's response above, to which I interpret is a sarcastic response to demonstrate the invalidity of prohibiting heritage tours:

Propose that such a case were to occur, it won't stop individuals from trespassing across tracks to vandalise, it won't cease the problems we have with those disregarding active crossings sounding alarms, bells and closing gates, and, if all trains are removed from existence, it won't solve the problems in society.

Because, they will not have received any reform, any form of uncivilized nature presents itself from them in many different forms. Examples are through robberies and assaults, those offenses generally considered petty and insignificant can occur resulting in activities such as the recent phone application, 'Pokemon Go!' It has created many examples of delirious behaviour often resulting in a disregard to the reality of boundaries.

Therefore, sacrificing the precious heritage to which ultimately is the real means of providing nostalgic experience and it's purpose to educate individuals with the true meaning and will to live for humanity. It is an affront to prohibit heritage tours based on this very issue and a destruction to fostering civilized society. Lacking adequate measures to correct these distorted individuals and allowing this pattern to continue in their uncivilized nature with their belief that it is inconsequential is a denigration to the civilized and a failure from those we entrust to administer our society.
  MrBiggles Station Master

We have just had a perfect example on Facebook as to why gunzels are getting a bad name with powers that be.
A person uploaded some photos from a closed station on the Bendigo line. He stated that photos were totally legal because he got permission from the residents. Someone quickly pointed out that one of the photos was taken whilst standing on the (160kph) main line. The photographer replied by saying that he was allowed to do it because he was told no trains due and he also knew what he was doing because he used to work for "Vic-Rail". The resulting argument lasted 31 comments until someone locked it. He just kept repetitively denying that has was doing anything wrong. On the Facebook group in question, some of it's members are senior safeworking staff. For the sake of all of us, please just don't trespass.

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