3801 Boiler

 
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Based on the content, in the link I've posted above, at least in short term, 3830, is destined to become a big, green pigeon nest.
michaelgm
That is the 38 class ultimate destiny. 3813 has spent more time as a pile of junk than a working loco. And 3820 has certainly collected a lot of pigeon stuff over its lifetime.

Sponsored advertisement

  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Based on the content, in the link I've posted above, at least in short term, 3830, is destined to become a big, green pigeon nest.
michaelgm
That is a bit of drastic conjecture.  The advice only says that the overhaul has been suspended due to more extensive problems being encountered.  A change of priorities is involved.  3830 may yet return to steam at a later date, even next year.  After all there are still at least three other 38 boilers available.  Who knows what may eventuate?

Happy boilering,

John
  ivahri Train Controller

I'm sorry but when I read the word "suspended" I think of the standard NSW rail usage of the word as in "Service Suspended"... meaning short of an unexpected miracle it isn't going to happen...  and that is now when I believe 3830 will be returned to service. The whole management of 3801 and 3830 in recent years has been nothing short of a shambles. My sympathy goes to those tasked with keeping 3642 operational because this poor loco is doing most of the heavy lifting due to the lack of fleet planning within THNSW. I wonder if they can project as far out as 2017 or 2018 for what mainline steam locomotives will be operational?



Richard
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

I'm sorry but when I read the word "suspended" I think of the standard NSW rail usage of the word as in "Service Suspended"... meaning short of an unexpected miracle it isn't going to happen...  and that is now when I believe 3830 will be returned to service. The whole management of 3801 and 3830 in recent years has been nothing short of a shambles. My sympathy goes to those tasked with keeping 3642 operational because this poor loco is doing most of the heavy lifting due to the lack of fleet planning within THNSW. I wonder if they can project as far out as 2017 or 2018 for what mainline steam locomotives will be operational?



Richard
ivahri
Shambles? Why exactly is that the case. In an idea world the German boiler would have been fitted and life gone on. But the world is not ideal and people are dealing with reality.

There was an enormous shake up in THNSW a few months back, give the people now in charge a chance to get on top of things.

What fleet would you plan and how would you fund it?

Craig W
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
The new CEO of Transport Heritage NSW is Andrew Moritz, formally Director of The Ipswich Workshops Rail Museum (IWRM) in QLD. The more informed here know which QLD rail heritage workshops successfully built several locomotive boilers for heritage steam locomotives in very recent years. I notice the big wig at that same QLD workshop is now a very big wig in NSW rail heritage so Andrew has some detailed personal experience in the **management procedures** for new boilers that actually work. I am not suggesting he will get Ipswich to fix the 38 class boilers but I am suggesting he would be aware of what is involved in the various options to move the situation forward.

http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/#!Transport-Heritage-NSW-announces-Andrew-Moritz-as-new-CEO/c1ofn/5698856f0cf263fc5a8ce04b
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
The new CEO of Transport Heritage NSW is Andrew Moritz, formally Director of The Ipswich Workshops Rail Museum (IWRM) in QLD. The more informed here know which QLD rail heritage workshops successfully built several locomotive boilers for heritage steam locomotives in very recent years. I notice the big wig at that same QLD workshop is now a very big wig in NSW rail heritage so Andrew has some detailed personal experience in the **management procedures** for new boilers that actually work. I am not suggesting he will get Ipswich to fix the 38 class boilers but I am suggesting he would be aware of what is involved in the various options to move the situation forward.

http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/#!Transport-Heritage-NSW-announces-Andrew-Moritz-as-new-CEO/c1ofn/5698856f0cf263fc5a8ce04b
petan
With Andrew now heading up Transport Heritage NSW perhaps he might take the path of having the Ipswich QR Heritage workshops take an active role in resolving the boiler problems, they have the facilities and the expertise, in hindsight the new boiler could have been built at Ipswich but the bean counting bureaucrats deemed otherwise and now it falls to more experienced management to sort out what was an avoidable foul up.  Best of luck Andrew.
  ivahri Train Controller

I'm sorry but when I read the word "suspended" I think of the standard NSW rail usage of the word as in "Service Suspended"... meaning short of an unexpected miracle it isn't going to happen...  and that is now when I believe 3830 will be returned to service. The whole management of 3801 and 3830 in recent years has been nothing short of a shambles. My sympathy goes to those tasked with keeping 3642 operational because this poor loco is doing most of the heavy lifting due to the lack of fleet planning within THNSW. I wonder if they can project as far out as 2017 or 2018 for what mainline steam locomotives will be operational?



Richard
Shambles? Why exactly is that the case. In an idea world the German boiler would have been fitted and life gone on. But the world is not ideal and people are dealing with reality.

There was an enormous shake up in THNSW a few months back, give the people now in charge a chance to get on top of things.

What fleet would you plan and how would you fund it?

Craig W
CraigW
Craig,

How else would you describe it but a shambles? An enormous amount of money has been spent on getting 3801 back in operation. Let's not even touch on the sensitivity surrounding 3830s premature demise. I hope you don't you expect them worthy of excellence in project management awards.

The operational steam fleet is a finite resource. They need to be carefully managed. Allowing the situation to reach this point is not good, the fact that no longer term fleet management plan has ever been produced should be an even greater concern. All their eggs are in one basket. 3642.

How would I fund it? Beyond the budget they already have spent??? The NSW taxpayer is paying people to be accountable. It isn't for me to devise a solution. That is what they are paid to do. They clearly are not doing it very well.



Richard
  a6et Minister for Railways

The new CEO of Transport Heritage NSW is Andrew Moritz, formally Director of The Ipswich Workshops Rail Museum (IWRM) in QLD. The more informed here know which QLD rail heritage workshops successfully built several locomotive boilers for heritage steam locomotives in very recent years. I notice the big wig at that same QLD workshop is now a very big wig in NSW rail heritage so Andrew has some detailed personal experience in the **management procedures** for new boilers that actually work. I am not suggesting he will get Ipswich to fix the 38 class boilers but I am suggesting he would be aware of what is involved in the various options to move the situation forward.

http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/#!Transport-Heritage-NSW-announces-Andrew-Moritz-as-new-CEO/c1ofn/5698856f0cf263fc5a8ce04b
petan
Hopefully that appointment does turn out to be a positive, time will tell.

Somewhere in one these threads there was a run down of the various 38cl boilers except I think the 13's at Dorrigo the others of course was the one from 01, 20 & 30. plus the new German one.  20 is a permanent static exhibit of black 38's & parts used off it to keep the other boilers in use.  It would be nice & I can't think of a better word, to have all the boilers reassessed to see the overall cost of getting them all back in service.

Likewise dare I suggest a good look at the various 36cl boilers that may also be worthy of inspection along with possible overhauls of them. 3642 along with 3526 has shouldered the primary workload now for some time, yet it was pretty typical of pigs in NSW that the often filled in on 38cl rosters, often taking the same load, which could have been reduced had the train crews demanded of it, but usually it would have meant a reduction in carriage & passengers standing for long hours.

The other question also relates to the condition of the 3 36cl frames as that would also affect any potential use of them or bringing back into service.  Especially 16, owing to the coal & water effiecies of her.

Thing that the NSW heritage should look into is what steam locomotives would best serve operations, for various uses. While having the 32classes running, & can operate almost anywhere, there is more a limitation on them regarding loads & speed, & more ideally suited for medium distance runs if used out of Sydney, same with the 59's limited speed for them as well, that basically leaves the 35, 36, & 38cl.  Canberra's Garratt has the cost impediment associated with it but hope it will stay going for some time & costs do not become too prohibitive.

Having the maximum amount of the other 3 classes available for operations at least provides engines that can run at higher speeds, each of them should still be able to run at 70MPH/115Km/h with the pigs & 38cl able to alternate with runs.

While it may seem fanciful, & costs need to be looked at, there's little chance of other classes of steam being capable of a lasting operation in the heritage fleet.  The Thirlmere 27cl has an ideal run along the loop line so provides a reasonable alternative to the larger types.  The 30T's can operate in much the same as the 32cl & be interchangeable with them.

I wont live to see these things come to fruition though.
  TheFish Chief Train Controller

Location: Pyongyang
Thing that the NSW heritage should look into is what steam locomotives would best serve operations, for various uses. While having the 32classes running, & can operate almost anywhere, there is more a limitation on them regarding loads & speed, & more ideally suited for medium distance runs if used out of Sydney, same with the 59's limited speed for them as well, that basically leaves the 35, 36, & 38cl.  Canberra's Garratt has the cost impediment associated with it but hope it will stay going for some time & costs do not become too prohibitive.

Having the maximum amount of the other 3 classes available for operations at least provides engines that can run at higher speeds, each of them should still be able to run at 70MPH/115Km/h with the pigs & 38cl able to alternate with runs.
a6et
32's and 59's slow?

32's and 59's both have 5ft driving wheels, and power is all that limits a 32 a little more than the other classes you've mentioned.  They can both clock 100kmph which is as fast or faster than most preserved steam is allowed to do.  From memory, the different classes have different limits imposed on them these days and I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that 3237 at least is rated to 100kmph.  

Overhauling 5910 would be as good as having a 36 if it comes to it.  A little less speed but certainly more powerful.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thing that the NSW heritage should look into is what steam locomotives would best serve operations, for various uses. While having the 32classes running, & can operate almost anywhere, there is more a limitation on them regarding loads & speed, & more ideally suited for medium distance runs if used out of Sydney, same with the 59's limited speed for them as well, that basically leaves the 35, 36, & 38cl.  Canberra's Garratt has the cost impediment associated with it but hope it will stay going for some time & costs do not become too prohibitive.

Having the maximum amount of the other 3 classes available for operations at least provides engines that can run at higher speeds, each of them should still be able to run at 70MPH/115Km/h with the pigs & 38cl able to alternate with runs.
32's and 59's slow?

32's and 59's both have 5ft driving wheels, and power is all that limits a 32 a little more than the other classes you've mentioned.  They can both clock 100kmph which is as fast or faster than most preserved steam is allowed to do.  From memory, the different classes have different limits imposed on them these days and I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that 3237 at least is rated to 100kmph.  

Overhauling 5910 would be as good as having a 36 if it comes to it.  A little less speed but certainly more powerful.
TheFish
32cl certainly are 100kmh but the slowness aspect of them is more related to the load & gradient that they work over.  Even with light loads seen on heritage operations they would still be affected in one way or another.

59cl were restricted to 50mph/80Km/h & doubt if they would have an increase to that these days.

Yes the 59cl is a bit more powerful than a 36cl, but not that much. on a 1:40 grade they could take around 45tonnes more than a pig, but the pig had faster running times. A pig is capable of 115Km/h so has a better prospect in this day & age to operate trains with a much reduced timetable.

Its one thing regarding what they may be capable of but another in what they can do, especially these days when they have speedo's in the cabs & tape recordings in them.  Any over speed running that is consistently over is viewed seriously, short overspeed may be acceptable if seen for gaining momentum. NOTE MAY.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
ARHS (NSW) members will note from the May members' newsletter their Luncheon club has a tour of 3801's restoration http://www.arhsnsw.com.au/tours.htm
  doridori Chief Commissioner

It is sad to see that in the several years I've been absent from here, nothing of substance has been accomplished.

Goes to show the selfish short sightedness and egotism of a few, really did cause lasting damage for the greater community and preservation efforts.
Congratulations guys, hope your hollow 'victory' negates the empty feeling of a greatly diminished heritage fleet due to your actions!

To those that keep fighting the good fight, particularly those volunteering, I tip my hat your way Smile
  georges Train Controller

A report of real progress on 3801 boiler.

"The repair work will involve some manufacturing processes that have not been attempted in NSW railway preservation. Two of the large flanged plates in the firebox require replacement. These are the outer casing backplate and the inner firebox throat plate. There are a number of ways in which these plates can be manufactured, but after considering various options, the original method of flanging a hot plate between cast iron dies has a number of advantages and is the most efficient method of forming the plates. The investment in dies is extensive, however this enables THNSW to produce additional plates at low cost, making repairs to other 38 class boilers more affordable. Negotiations are currently underway to develop the design of the dies and to engage the services of an Australian company which has a plate heating furnace and hydraulic press of sufficient capacity."


http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/#!Project-3801-update/c1ofn/57c3b249c750097c3e5c304a
  TheFish Chief Train Controller

Location: Pyongyang
Seems like some good long term thinking.  If only the planning that went into the German boiler had been about value for money rather than cost.  They are obviously anticipating needing the patterns if and when the money is found to rebuild 3830's boiler.  

Hopefully from now on restorations and overhauls will be done in a more meticulous way than before.  It would be good to see a long-term strategy come out of the problems these two engines have faced for how we can better carry out boiler builds and repairs, within the heritage sector and with help from local firms.  That way skills can be maintained, built up and called on continuously.  

I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Slightly off topic but intended to give Railpagers some insights into how the restoration of steam locomotives is undertaken and issues around how to rehabilitate boilers in particular, have a look at a number of Youtube clips related to the return to service of Union Pacific 844 under the superb stewardship of the Manager of their Steam Program Ed Dickens.    UP 844 was withdrawn from service for some off schedule repairs that subsequently turned itself into a major general overhaul of the locomotive as various detailed inspections etc were undertaken.  A range of earlier "quick fix" repairs undertaken years earlier actually caused more deterioration over time and certain areas of the boiler and firebox required rebuilding and delicate repairs.   All very good examples to prove that restoration and operation of steam locomotives in the 21st Century is an extremely challenging, difficult and complex task.

Several of the clips make reference to how the learnings from the UP844 overhaul will be applied to the UP 4014 Big Boy including reference to manufacturing additional parts for the UP 844 that will be used to address the same problems in the UP 4014, which is not dissimilar in some ways to the latest update on 3801.

Great insights.  Some clips last over an hour which is extremely interesting.   I get a sense that where the 3801 Project is now heading and the team now managing it is very similar to the Union Pacific experience.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Seems like some good long term thinking.  If only the planning that went into the German boiler had been about value for money rather than cost.  They are obviously anticipating needing the patterns if and when the money is found to rebuild 3830's boiler.  

Hopefully from now on restorations and overhauls will be done in a more meticulous way than before.  It would be good to see a long-term strategy come out of the problems these two engines have faced for how we can better carry out boiler builds and repairs, within the heritage sector and with help from local firms.  That way skills can be maintained, built up and called on continuously.  

I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.
TheFish
This is where the LES should play a larger role in the repair & overhauls of steam loco's.  The Overhead heavy lift travelling cranes are vital for that work, it should be examined to allow it to be used.  Lets not forget the ability of the LES's former abilities in the construction of the 38 & 58cl loco's assembly of the garratts & perform heavy overhauls of them during their careers.
Transport heritage also needs to be training apprentices & other skilled workers to carry the fleet into the future.  The LES could also go on show like a mini York for public tours as well.

What also needs to be looked at is what happened to all the machinery & toolings that were removed from the precinct under Carrs tenure as Premier, as they would be state significant items.
  Clarke Hudswell Junior Train Controller


I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.
TheFish

Boiler overhauls should be done on a needs basis. They are inspected professionally every year and if the boiler inspector says the boiler is ok for another year, then it is safe to operate. Mandating 10 year overhauls would simply kill off the steam heritage sector in Australia, for no good reason. Has anyone here been even slightly injured because of a lack of boiler maintenance? So why add an unnecessary burden? In the UK, in general, their locomotives are used much more frequently than here. We do not have the financial or volunteer backing that the UK enjoys. And why a fixed time period, surely it depends on how frequently a boiler is steamed, some locos here are only steamed maybe 3 or 4 times in a year (like R 711) whereas others are steamed frequently (like Puffing Billy)?
  a6et Minister for Railways


I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.

Boiler overhauls should be done on a needs basis. They are inspected professionally every year and if the boiler inspector says the boiler is ok for another year, then it is safe to operate. Mandating 10 year overhauls would simply kill off the steam heritage sector in Australia, for no good reason. Has anyone here been even slightly injured because of a lack of boiler maintenance? So why add an unnecessary burden? In the UK, in general, their locomotives are used much more frequently than here. We do not have the financial or volunteer backing that the UK enjoys. And why a fixed time period, surely it depends on how frequently a boiler is steamed, some locos here are only steamed maybe 3 or 4 times in a year (like R 711) whereas others are steamed frequently (like Puffing Billy)?
Clarke Hudswell
If that is case on a needs basis only, how in heck was it discovered with the  "Two of the large flanged plates in the firebox require replacement.""  You would be surprised at what is found when a boiler is removed from the frame & why it was part of the regular overhauls with the NSWGR. Light or Tone up O/hauls were general inspections without boiler lifts & carried out in the many major depots around the state. With Medium & Heavy O/hauls in the main 3 worshops, although Enfield could & did do the Medium overhauls if needed.

Certainly in Englad things are different, but we have so few locomotives that are used in the heritage fleet, what work they do do, is covered by a very small number of them.  What is needed is more trained staff, to do the work, which this later news has actually pointed out in one area something that may very well be needed more of in the future.  Therefore a very central location is needed in order for people to be trained, & it needs to be close to transport & for the workers to get to, Thirlmere is too far out, Chullora is not ideal owing to its isolation away from rail services, with the LES in the best position as all lines go past there one way or another.
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich

I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.

Boiler overhauls should be done on a needs basis. They are inspected professionally every year and if the boiler inspector says the boiler is ok for another year, then it is safe to operate. Mandating 10 year overhauls would simply kill off the steam heritage sector in Australia, for no good reason. Has anyone here been even slightly injured because of a lack of boiler maintenance? So why add an unnecessary burden? In the UK, in general, their locomotives are used much more frequently than here. We do not have the financial or volunteer backing that the UK enjoys. And why a fixed time period, surely it depends on how frequently a boiler is steamed, some locos here are only steamed maybe 3 or 4 times in a year (like R 711) whereas others are steamed frequently (like Puffing Billy)?
If that is case on a needs basis only, how in heck was it discovered with the  "Two of the large flanged plates in the firebox require replacement.""  You would be surprised at what is found when a boiler is removed from the frame & why it was part of the regular overhauls with the NSWGR. Light or Tone up O/hauls were general inspections without boiler lifts & carried out in the many major depots around the state. With Medium & Heavy O/hauls in the main 3 worshops, although Enfield could & did do the Medium overhauls if needed.

Certainly in Englad things are different, but we have so few locomotives that are used in the heritage fleet, what work they do do, is covered by a very small number of them.  What is needed is more trained staff, to do the work, which this later news has actually pointed out in one area something that may very well be needed more of in the future.  Therefore a very central location is needed in order for people to be trained, & it needs to be close to transport & for the workers to get to, Thirlmere is too far out, Chullora is not ideal owing to its isolation away from rail services, with the LES in the best position as all lines go past there one way or another.
a6et
At some stage some thought, effort and money needs to be directed towards retaining the skills to maintain and where necessary build major components such as boilers for heritage locos.
This needs to be an Australia wide thing not confined to one state, at the present time the Ipswich workshops is engaged in some major boiler overhauls and there is a base of skilled labour there, if there were a sufficient flow of work then that would ensure the needed skills would be maintained and apprentice tradesmen indentured and trained for the future.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik

I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.

Boiler overhauls should be done on a needs basis. They are inspected professionally every year and if the boiler inspector says the boiler is ok for another year, then it is safe to operate. Mandating 10 year overhauls would simply kill off the steam heritage sector in Australia, for no good reason. Has anyone here been even slightly injured because of a lack of boiler maintenance? So why add an unnecessary burden? In the UK, in general, their locomotives are used much more frequently than here. We do not have the financial or volunteer backing that the UK enjoys. And why a fixed time period, surely it depends on how frequently a boiler is steamed, some locos here are only steamed maybe 3 or 4 times in a year (like R 711) whereas others are steamed frequently (like Puffing Billy)?
If that is case on a needs basis only, how in heck was it discovered with the  "Two of the large flanged plates in the firebox require replacement.""  You would be surprised at what is found when a boiler is removed from the frame & why it was part of the regular overhauls with the NSWGR. Light or Tone up O/hauls were general inspections without boiler lifts & carried out in the many major depots around the state. With Medium & Heavy O/hauls in the main 3 worshops, although Enfield could & did do the Medium overhauls if needed.

Certainly in Englad things are different, but we have so few locomotives that are used in the heritage fleet, what work they do do, is covered by a very small number of them.  What is needed is more trained staff, to do the work, which this later news has actually pointed out in one area something that may very well be needed more of in the future.  Therefore a very central location is needed in order for people to be trained, & it needs to be close to transport & for the workers to get to, Thirlmere is too far out, Chullora is not ideal owing to its isolation away from rail services, with the LES in the best position as all lines go past there one way or another.
a6et
If, as Clarke Hudswell says, boilers are inspected professionally every 12 months there should be no surprises for him or anyone else by lifting the boiler from the frames. Would the sad situation with the various 38 class boilers have been any different had they been lifted or is it due to them not being properly inspected in the frames, maintained or operated or are other fields found wanting? The situation with the German boiler would certainly imply a shortcoming in the 'other fields' category.

Unfortunately, in some areas of rail there is a mentality to set maintenance limits on a time basis rather than on a usage and condition basis. This sometimes led to components being changed today, the vehicle then pushed down the yard and pulled back 12 months later to change the same component even though it had not turned a wheel in the meantime.
  a6et Minister for Railways


I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.

Boiler overhauls should be done on a needs basis. They are inspected professionally every year and if the boiler inspector says the boiler is ok for another year, then it is safe to operate. Mandating 10 year overhauls would simply kill off the steam heritage sector in Australia, for no good reason. Has anyone here been even slightly injured because of a lack of boiler maintenance? So why add an unnecessary burden? In the UK, in general, their locomotives are used much more frequently than here. We do not have the financial or volunteer backing that the UK enjoys. And why a fixed time period, surely it depends on how frequently a boiler is steamed, some locos here are only steamed maybe 3 or 4 times in a year (like R 711) whereas others are steamed frequently (like Puffing Billy)?
If that is case on a needs basis only, how in heck was it discovered with the  "Two of the large flanged plates in the firebox require replacement.""  You would be surprised at what is found when a boiler is removed from the frame & why it was part of the regular overhauls with the NSWGR. Light or Tone up O/hauls were general inspections without boiler lifts & carried out in the many major depots around the state. With Medium & Heavy O/hauls in the main 3 worshops, although Enfield could & did do the Medium overhauls if needed.

Certainly in Englad things are different, but we have so few locomotives that are used in the heritage fleet, what work they do do, is covered by a very small number of them.  What is needed is more trained staff, to do the work, which this later news has actually pointed out in one area something that may very well be needed more of in the future.  Therefore a very central location is needed in order for people to be trained, & it needs to be close to transport & for the workers to get to, Thirlmere is too far out, Chullora is not ideal owing to its isolation away from rail services, with the LES in the best position as all lines go past there one way or another.
If, as Clarke Hudswell says, boilers are inspected professionally every 12 months there should be no surprises for him or anyone else by lifting the boiler from the frames. Would the sad situation with the various 38 class boilers have been any different had they been lifted or is it due to them not being properly inspected in the frames, maintained or operated or are other fields found wanting? The situation with the German boiler would certainly imply a shortcoming in the 'other fields' category.

Unfortunately, in some areas of rail there is a mentality to set maintenance limits on a time basis rather than on a usage and condition basis. This sometimes led to components being changed today, the vehicle then pushed down the yard and pulled back 12 months later to change the same component even though it had not turned a wheel in the meantime.Th
YM-Mundrabilla
The theory is good, however how many professionals are there left these days that really have those skills?  I am in no way putting down the work that those associated with the maintaining of the fleet (for want of such a description) but we are very much in a different age with a huge number of skilled workers in those areas no longer with us.

Looking at the restoration of 3265 one of the primary men involved was Albert Taylor an old hand from Westinghouse brake expert, think old type brakes in particular which are not too high tech but they need careful work done on them, people like Albert are not getting any younger & they are invaluable to pass the skills on,

While Ipswich has the capacity & abilities in many areas, & could be great sources for the major areas, such as building of larger boilers such as the 38cl ones, which they actually tendered for, is centralising such a great idea in the broad arena? Surelly the more locally skilled & qualified tradespeople would provide heritage NSW with a better option for a wider range of repairs for the local fleet, or for those within the NSW Heritage directory?  The same perhaps would also apply in other states as well.
We live in an era of more & more multi skilled workers & the older specific trades are likely non existent or too confined for a wider need, rather than locomotive of R/S specific skills being able to work in both areas are much more valuable as well as being more gainfully employed as far as the areas of needs.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
Seems like some good long term thinking.  If only the planning that went into the German boiler had been about value for money rather than cost.  They are obviously anticipating needing the patterns if and when the money is found to rebuild 3830's boiler.  

Hopefully from now on restorations and overhauls will be done in a more meticulous way than before.  It would be good to see a long-term strategy come out of the problems these two engines have faced for how we can better carry out boiler builds and repairs, within the heritage sector and with help from local firms.  That way skills can be maintained, built up and called on continuously.  

I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.
TheFish
With Correct Feed Water Treatment Large Scale boiler repairs in the 21st century should be a thing of the past, I've posted this video before but here it is again for those who may not have seen it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRs72Qqd-Dc

There are now Boilers in this country that are now in their 21st year of daily operation with their original tubes, Stays and no plate replacement at all.
Another locomotive I am aware of is now suffering from tube failures as a result of No Feed Water Treatment, less than 3 years after being installed and probably only having steam a couple of dozen times in that time period.

This link http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/ldp/rfirt/santafes.htm on the work of L.D. Porta on the Ramal Ferro Industrial de Rio Turbio in Argentina is worth a read, towards the bottom there is a list of figure relating to maintenance of the fleet.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Seems like some good long term thinking.  If only the planning that went into the German boiler had been about value for money rather than cost.  They are obviously anticipating needing the patterns if and when the money is found to rebuild 3830's boiler.  

Hopefully from now on restorations and overhauls will be done in a more meticulous way than before.  It would be good to see a long-term strategy come out of the problems these two engines have faced for how we can better carry out boiler builds and repairs, within the heritage sector and with help from local firms.  That way skills can be maintained, built up and called on continuously.  

I have to admit I wasn't impressed when 3830 didn't have a boiler lift when it was undergoing its overhaul.  It should be mandatory that they are lifted every ten years, as is done in the UK and elsewhere.  As far as I'm aware it hasn't been out of 3830's frames in quite some time.  I know its a big task but its the only proper way to correctly manage it and I wasn't surprised when they discovered more problems with it this year.  Again, its cost vs value for money.
With Correct Feed Water Treatment Large Scale boiler repairs in the 21st century should be a thing of the past, I've posted this video before but here it is again for those who may not have seen it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRs72Qqd-Dc

There are now Boilers in this country that are now in their 21st year of daily operation with their original tubes, Stays and no plate replacement at all.
Another locomotive I am aware of is now suffering from tube failures as a result of No Feed Water Treatment, less than 3 years after being installed and probably only having steam a couple of dozen times in that time period.

This link http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/ldp/rfirt/santafes.htm on the work of L.D. Porta on the Ramal Ferro Industrial de Rio Turbio in Argentina is worth a read, towards the bottom there is a list of figure relating to maintenance of the fleet.

NSWGR 3827
Water is a huge problem but in this day & age with different treatments it has helped a lot, thing is though not all waters are the same & when you venture into the rural areas you still get crook water even when its treated & considered ok to drink, there are still a lot of locations where the water is no better than heavy bore water. So bad is the supplies that some locations that once had all rain water tanks outlawed have permitted the reinstallaion of them for drinking water, & not just for the dunny, & washing water either.

In Sydney the water is pretty good, & an example I guess regarding this is the removal of the continual blow down from 3642, not sure if they have been removed from the 38cl or not.  There are several places in NSW, that rarely see steam that would need to have some form of softening to the water for steam use. It looks good & often tastes ok but a good test is to see the colour of tea with the water, if you want real dark black tea, & only add a spoon of tea to a billy or teapot you will get a strong brew, same amount in rain water & its a very weak brew.

Urns often corrode around areas such as where a minor leak or drip around the tap. I would doubt that many locations in England or Europe would have water such as many places in Rural Australia.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
There's an old saying with boiler Water which I don't know where I heard, "It's not what your putting in that matters, it's what's in the Boiler that matters."

So if you are using a Tannin based Water Treatment which seems to be the most commonly used for loco Boilers There are 4 important readings taken when testing Boiler Water, Ph, Alkalinity, Tannin & Totally Disolved Solids.  If you can keep these in the required range all your problems should disappear.
  a6et Minister for Railways

There's an old saying with boiler Water which I don't know where I heard, "It's not what your putting in that matters, it's what's in the Boiler that matters."

So if you are using a Tannin based Water Treatment which seems to be the most commonly used for loco Boilers There are 4 important readings taken when testing Boiler Water, Ph, Alkalinity, Tannin & Totally Disolved Solids.  If you can keep these in the required range all your problems should disappear.
NSWGR 3827
Tannin was the common treatment put into all steam loco's during NSWGR days, 36cl were also required to have brikets placed in tenders at set locations. A small box was fitted to the coal backhead that was filled by the boilermakers for the fireman to put in at the specified points when taking water.  Not all locations had people that were able to add the tannin treatment to the supply into the overhead tanks.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: