RTR and plonkers

 
  Allan ogden Station Staff

Location: Melbourne
Oh dear! doesnt anyone model any more???

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  Streamliner Junior Train Controller

Location: NSW South Coast
Hmm only scenery these days?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
They do, but not everyone has a 3D printer in the home just yet. Everything else comes from China (except Kadees, which is a good thing).
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
They do, but not everyone has a 3D printer in the home just yet. Everything else comes from China (except Kadees, which is a good thing).
Heihachi_73
I think we are a long way from getting a file off a server and printing a loco ready to use. One can 3D Print a shell, then produce detail items to a degree. But it doesn't paint it, add a chassie or decoder, lights. So that new part of the hobby still needs the skill of a modeller. It is making things eaiser though.

The advent of the 3D and CAD also means, to a degree some people may explore new gauge and scale combinations.

Regards,
David Head
  UpperQuad Locomotive Fireman

Location: 184.8 miles to Sydney
Oh dear! doesnt anyone model any more???
Allan ogden
Railway modelling is dead.
It's all about toy collecting, these days.
  Albert Chief Commissioner

Without RTR and plonkers, there would be no hobby to the masses or model rail industry at all. And the one that do model are grilled because it isn't perfect.


Pity everything gets broken down to an 'us versus them' attitude.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Without RTR and plonkers, there would be no hobby to the masses or model rail industry at all. And the one that do model are grilled because it isn't perfect.


Pity everything gets broken down to an 'us versus them' attitude.
Albert
Yes I agree. Both RTR and Building are forever interlocked. It does not have to be Us Vs them.


We have a big range of interests. Some like locos only, some rollingstock only. Some  obsess with control & wiring. Still more love building scenery. Then you have the  people who just love to watch trains run through this scenery. Other  have no scenery but the trian operation is kinkl, operations and control is their thing.

So unless you can buy a RTR model railway, the art of making something will forever around. amny a collector of RTR will progress to a modeller if they want to run their  aquisitions on a  layout that can showcase their models.

When you see something Scratchbuilt, a well made kit or a kitbashed item you admire it all the more. When it comes down to it, there are people who model because the just like to. Not because they have to to get a model.

Regards,
David Head
  yogibarnes Locomotive Fireman

One sure way to get someone to market a RTR or a plonker is to build yourself one from scratch or kitbash.  The proprietary item always seems to appear on the market soon after.
So, you guys, keep building!!
  Bills_Billboards Chief Commissioner

also adding DCC to locos making wirering a layout simpler another form of the hobby slowly being lost so its not just confined to RTR items and plonking
  allan Chief Commissioner

Oh dear! doesnt anyone model any more???
Allan ogden
I guess that it depends on the degree of accuracy that you feel is necessary. I have yet to remove a model from its packaging and find that it needs no work - though the time and place that I model means that very few "RTR" models are available in the first place.

The bigger issue for beginners in my area - pre-1964 SAR - is the absence of true entry level kits. Most competent SAR modellers that I know have come either from a background of aircraft or road vehicle modelling, or were active when BGB produced a full range of SAR kits. Now, I know that the BGB kits were often imperfect, but, they were what we learned from.
  steve_w_1990 Junior Train Controller

Location: Trying to fix something on the PTA Network
Personally I just like seeing trains run.

I've got that many kits sitting in boxes, some of them for nearly a decade with the intention of building, but it just hasn't happened.

My modelling skill is not even close compared to what you can get ready to run, and with that much stuff that has been released for the RTR market for the era that I model (1960's - 1980's NSW) building kits for me is almost a waste of time.

Not only that, but building kits, whilst it does require expertise, it also requires the modeller to purchase expensive tools to bring the model to an acceptable standard. Having a wagon where the sides don't line up squarely, there's glue marks hanging out from the joints, the sides are warped and a hand applied paint job just looks awful compared to a RTR Auscision 46 Class.

I simply don't have the funds or the time to be able to spend $150 on an airbrush, $200 on a decent air compressor, $5000 on a shed, as well as all the other tools that are required to make a decent kit based model. I have a huge appreciation for the talent and skill that some modellers have to be able to produce the masterpieces that they do, however I just don't have the means to even come close to that.

To give an example I tried my hand a white metal soldering. I was able to get OK results after following an AMRM article on building a WS wheat wagon, however I had an "oops" when I tried to build a Bergs X200 class and melted quite a large hole in the cab, completely ruining the piece. That model has now sat in its box ever since. I tried contacting bergs once about getting a replacement part, however it was to no avail. I've also got an ezi kits 25 class and a DJH 50 class kit that I've been sitting on for a long time, and, after what happened with the X200, do you think I'm even going to risk damaging a $400 kit?

Not only that, but people seem to get a bit carried away with this "plonkers" philosophy.

I may like to buy and run my models straight away, but is any consideration given to the fact that the model has to run on something?

I spent many hours on and under my layout trying to iron out kinks in track work, run wires and get tracks circuit for both power and point motors as well as switch wires and LED's working correctly, not to mention the time that went into building the baseboards, which, even as a "throw together with what I've got job" still took a while. I've had many a sore smeg, back and hands from the time I spent sitting on a concrete floor running wires as well as burning my hands on the soldering iron once or twice, and for someone to come along and say "well because you don't build kits you're not a real modeller, you're just a plonker" can be taken as being a little bit of an insult.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
They do, but not everyone has a 3D printer in the home just yet. Everything else comes from China (except Kadees, which is a good thing).
I think we are a long way from getting a file off a server and printing a loco ready to use. One can 3D Print a shell, then produce detail items to a degree. But it doesn't paint it, add a chassie or decoder, lights. So that new part of the hobby still needs the skill of a modeller. It is making things eaiser though.

The advent of the 3D and CAD also means, to a degree some people may explore new gauge and scale combinations.

Regards,
David Head
dthead
.........What??!!??

Don't we have enough gauge/scale combinations already?  Sheeeeesh. (LOL)

Anyone for Tb7, or Zn3.5?

Happy scaling,

John
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Personally I just like seeing trains run.

Not only that, but people seem to get a bit carried away with this "plonkers" philosophy.

I may like to buy and run my models straight away, but is any consideration given to the fact that the model has to run on something?

I spent many hours on and under my layout trying to iron out kinks in track work, run wires and get tracks circuit for both power and point motors as well as switch wires and LED's working correctly, not to mention the time that went into building the baseboards, which, even as a "throw together with what I've got job" still took a while. I've had many a sore smeg, back and hands from the time I spent sitting on a concrete floor running wires as well as burning my hands on the soldering iron once or twice, and for someone to come along and say "well because you don't build kits you're not a real modeller, you're just a plonker" can be taken as being a little bit of an insult.
steve_w_1990
I am much the same, though I don't have a layout. I just want a display case with one of each loco class I've driven. At the time, the 82 Class was only available as a Lloyds kit and then OTM came out with theirs, even releasing 8232 which was a bit sentimental to me as that's the one I put in the dirt at Port Waratah. Why would I consider trying to build a kit when the quality from OTM, or any of the manufacturers these days, is far superior to anything I could achieve myself? The amount of money I would essentially waste trying to achieve that standard of quality would raise many questions with the KRviatrix.

It isn't just model railways either...I recently completed and flew a 2-seat kitplane. The standard of the newer kits, including mine, is light years ahead of what was previously available, which provides huge benefits to builders these days. But many 'traditional' builders view it as not so much "building" as "assembling" these days, and to a certain extent they are right. But there is still a substantial amount of blood (really), sweat and tears that go into it. But it still causes friction at fly-ins with some pilots, usually the ones who prefer to build, rather than fly. Personally, I would rather fly than build, even though I did enjoy the build process.
  carpocarpo5 Locomotive Fireman

'Oh dear! doesnt anyone model any more??? '

Yes - they do.

Mine is a mixture of plonked, kit built and scratchbuilt. Most of the structures are scratched.

http://s44.photobucket.com/user/Carpo5/library/Model%20Railway?sort=3&page=1

http://s44.photobucket.com/user/Carpo5/library/?sort=3&page=0

At the end of the day, we are all just playing with expensive toys - there is no kudos to be gained from how you build your layout.

If you want kudos, join a charity, volunteer for something or just live a productive life.

Regards,
Carpo
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'd wager there are the same amount of modellers as there were. We are seeing more people in the hobby because they can buy the loco/wagon instead ofg HAVEING to model it in order to have it. So then we see more of this RTR models around. Then effect then is the modellers creations are seen less, and kits are either discontinued or no longer made. That can frustrate someone who wants to make, not buy.

But we are not seeing a increase of layouts to match I think. Meanwhile the advent of 3D printers, CAD etc is seeing alot of kitss being made in many scale/gaiuge combinations never really seen before. Head tot he shapeway sites and you can take days looking at what one can buy. But to buy a 3D you have to make it, detail it, paint it, letter it, make it work, and weather it.

Again there is nor us vs them. a modeller and Plonker can change roles at any time. Sometimes one just wants to have a go atmaking something when it is not a priority or required.  Then the modeller might just sucumb to  aRTR item as a on off.

But I think what is not in question is the talent and skill we all admire form the modeller.

Regards,
David Head
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Which leads to the discussion on whether building kits is really modelling or just putting it together and painting it etc.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Which leads to the discussion on whether building kits is really modelling or just putting it together and painting it etc.
Donald
Some kits are assembly by the owner rather than at the factory. But a lot need skill and time. Some kits are just a set of material s and a plan !

And even  is a scratchbuilder harvests the wood to make the strips, or buying the  whitemetal to ppur the casts, or extruding the chemical to make the plastic...  There are limits. And mind you some people do reall make things from what we call nothing.  It's a hugely diverse hobby and there is a lot of variety out there.

At the other end if you buy a RTR loco, normally "plonking" means yuo place that RTR loco straight on the track and use it as is. So if someone gets a RTR loco, details it, weathers it, renumbers it, touched up some paint here or there - is it still plonking or has  the modeller in the owner come out a bit to make what was a mass produced item more appealing , slightly unique, or better ?

Regards
David Head
  ditchlights Beginner

Which leads to the discussion on whether building kits is really modelling or just putting it together and painting it etc.
Some kits are assembly by the owner rather than at the factory. But a lot need skill and time. Some kits are just a set of material s and a plan !

And even  is a scratchbuilder harvests the wood to make the strips, or buying the  whitemetal to ppur the casts, or extruding the chemical to make the plastic...  There are limits. And mind you some people do reall make things from what we call nothing.  It's a hugely diverse hobby and there is a lot of variety out there.

At the other end if you buy a RTR loco, normally "plonking" means yuo place that RTR loco straight on the track and use it as is. So if someone gets a RTR loco, details it, weathers it, renumbers it, touched up some paint here or there - is it still plonking or has  the modeller in the owner come out a bit to make what was a mass produced item more appealing , slightly unique, or better ?

Regards
David Head
dthead
Indeed David!

Would those of us who have made and assembled their own loco power-train, electric motor etc. please raise there hand!!
... & dare I mention hand-laid trackwork?
Best
Ditch
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Would those of us who have made and assembled their own loco power-train, electric motor etc. please raise there hand!!
... & dare I mention hand-laid trackwork?
Best
Ditch
ditchlights
Me sir, me sir, me sir!!! Done all that. Made locos from raw brass, too. Just haven't made driving wheels.

But I wouldn't bother doing any of it again. Except pointwork, where an enormous saving can be made, as well as making formations that just aren't available in commercial track.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Which leads to the discussion on whether building kits is really modelling or just putting it together and painting it etc.
Some kits are assembly by the owner rather than at the factory. But a lot need skill and time. Some kits are just a set of material s and a plan !

And even  is a scratchbuilder harvests the wood to make the strips, or buying the  whitemetal to ppur the casts, or extruding the chemical to make the plastic...  There are limits. And mind you some people do reall make things from what we call nothing.  It's a hugely diverse hobby and there is a lot of variety out there.

At the other end if you buy a RTR loco, normally "plonking" means yuo place that RTR loco straight on the track and use it as is. So if someone gets a RTR loco, details it, weathers it, renumbers it, touched up some paint here or there - is it still plonking or has  the modeller in the owner come out a bit to make what was a mass produced item more appealing , slightly unique, or better ?

Regards
David Head
Indeed David!

Would those of us who have made and assembled their own loco power-train, electric motor etc. please raise there hand!!
... & dare I mention hand-laid trackwork?
Best
Ditch
ditchlights
Ditch
It has been done. I guess in 1940, someone wrote about plonkers buying ready made "pitman" 6 pole motors instead of building their own, which building of, did actually happen. If you see any 1937 Model Railroaders, you will be surprised to see what was done, way back then. I particularly remember a  circle of track decorated with buildings and a train with carriages that operated in a cigar box. and two months after, a Jeweler presented his version, which was similar, was clockwork and operated in a cigarette tin.
Cheers
Rod
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
I think modellers can be categorised even further, in my opinion there are 3 facets (note I say facets, not groups), there is RTR/plonking, there is kit building/kit bashing and there is scratchbuilding. I participate in all 3, I do appreciate some of the new RTR models that I can easily plonk on the railway and run. I have modified some of these RTR to suit a particular model. I have built kits and I have modified kits to obtain that otherwise unavailable model. And being a 60's SAR modeller I have had to do my fair share of scratchbuilding, and being a narrow gauge modeller means I have had to scratchbuild virtually everything.
But, an observation I have made is that the hobby is regressing for scratchbuilders/kit bashers as a consequence of all this superb RTR stuff coming out, as Alan points out, we have cut our teeth on BGB kits here in SA, but shunters steps for example and the myriad of other small details had to be fabricated from wire and brass shim/styrene sheet. Model Etch came on the market and us scratchbuilders and kit bashers had our prayers answered with superb brass etchings for all those detail parts, and the amount of product than Tony put out was amazing, scratchbuilding and kit bashing became a whole lot easier. Whether by coincidence or from market forces, I suspect the latter, Model Etch weren't able to continue as his market basically dried up, the same has applied to other manufacturers of detail parts. Steam Era are struggling against RTR VR models and have stopped producing small wheels which is pretty devastating for SAR narrow gauge modellers, and I suspect QR modellers as well.
I don't bemoan the arrival of RTR models or blame them for changing market trends, it had to happen for the good of the hobby, as said, I have happily bought RTR but I fear scratchbuilding may become an RIP for future generations, and that will be a shame.
Albert, I am sorry you have to say this "and the one that do model are grilled because it isn't perfect", I presume you are speaking from experience, as an old fella with a love for the hobby I feel that we elders have to nurture young modellers for the hobby to continue to grow, I don't want to be the one the pisses a young modeller of and see him go back to his playstation. We have a lot of talented young modellers coming into the hobby in SA, one particular group of lads have formed their own operating group (along the lines of our local ABLO operating groups) and they are turning out some good work. I for one will never say a model isn't perfect but I will offer advice if needed.

Wayne
  Old Northern Locomotive Driver

Personally I just like seeing trains run.
steve_w_1990

I spent over 20 years scale modelling, initially LMS and then NSWGR.  After a break of 15 years or more, my interest has been rekindled but, for some reason or other, I am now running Hornby Dublo 3 rail.  So I have gone from scale modelling to basically just watching trains run - and I'm enjoying vintage 3 rail more than I ever enjoyed scale modelling.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Oh dear! doesnt anyone model any more???
Allan ogden
I wonder how many people have been put off getting into model trains over the years by the constant bleatings of the elitist 'modellers' and the rivet counters.

I take it when you were referring to 'plonkers' that was an act of self-depreciation Razz
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I am a plonker, kit builder, scratchbuilder type of modeller. I enjoy unwrapping my latest RTR purchase, I enjoy putting a kit together no matter what it is, and I also enjoy scratchbuilding things that probably would never get made RTR ever unless they get really desperate or something. I model mainly what is seen in South Australia but I do have a huge collection of interstate and overseas models as well.

I just buy what I like really, be it RTR or a kit.

But as has been said some art's like scratchbuilding models is fast disappearing as the RTR mobs make more and more models, but somethings you have to scratchbuild though especially if you model SA like station buildings and NG rollingstock and stuff like W Hoskins does. You cannot walk into your local hobby shop and ask for a ready built SAR type station building. You can get kits of some SAR buildings though, but if you want a peculiar sort of SAR station building and there were a few one off types of buildings then you have to scratchbuild it or go without. It all depends on what era you model and what station building you actually need.

So in my life there is a place for plonking, kits, and scratchbuilding. The combination of all of them keeps up your skills in all facet's of each of them. Oh and I should add that even plonker type models get things changed on them by me some are only couplers but others are detail parts as needed!
  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana
Yes they do,
I model both WA SG HO and WA NG HOn3.5, so you pretty much have to scratch build most things (with the exception of a few SG wagons and a L class in RTR).
All my HOn3.5 models are either kit bashed, scratch built as there is nothing available. I do have a 3D printed body for a DA class but the rest is all bashed or scratch built (DB, DFZ, S class are a couple of them) MA is a modified 73 class white metal kit using a DH class 12mm mech.

Happy building

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