Train guards in firing line from NSW's $2.3 billion intercity fleet renewal

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 27 Sep 2016 11:34
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

A couple of points Tazzer
- Monitoring CCTV via a central location and calling on PA can and is done
- The DAA person could have contacted the station on arrival and asked for assistance on P4.
- DAA assistance on driver only trains is normally via the front door to save the driver from walking
- The modern rolling stock to be supplied has platform sensor's so it will know not to open the doors if the platform edge is not there. I'm also suprised QR goes to the effort to lock the doors? NSW doesn't
- Guards have become obsolete not because the unions won't let them, but because they choose to not change with the times. Technology is catching up and the many of the functions of the guard are fast being removed.

However in regard to Qld, Brisbane does have an exceptional issue with platform gaps and height differences and unless you have used a fair bit of the network outside the new stations built from mid 80's onwards you won't understand.

Overall I suspect that to make all stations DAA compliant is an excessive cost and that some lessor used stations simply don't justify the cost and there are alternatives. For example

- The driver can aid the DAA on a un manned station, but of the person is getting off at a manned station the driver could call ahead to request platform assistance.

- Stations could be deemed non DAA compliant and the few DAA's who want to use can call a taxi to travel from that station to the nearest DAA compliant one in the direction of travel for the cost of their train tickets with the govt(taxpayer) picking up the tab. The taxi can be filled with additional passengers all paying their usual fare towards the cost. Installing card readers in the cabs is not hard nor expensive and the cab driver will only accept the train fare ride if at least one person has a DAA (what ever its called) card.

- Waiting on the platforms near the drivers door is exposed to the weather and can prove very uncomfortable and needs to also be managed.

- For interurban services, the guards need to roam the trains for revenue protection and they can clear the train from any door. This happens in other countries, why not Australia?
RTT_Rules
All very good, but how do you get a disabled cab at Linden on a weekend? As far as it being OK at staffed stations, do you have any idea, for instance, what stations on any of the interurban lines are staffed after 10am in Sydney? Just a little hint-not many, and that is during the week, on a weekend you could probably count them without taking off both shoes. Maybe in other states, but in NSW drivers do not have the ability to ring stations for any reason. As for guards roaming trains for revenue protection, one of our previous governments removed the ability for anyone other than transits/police and the current revenue protection staff to check tickets or collect unpaid fares, that is why staff at station barriers had no interest in you showing them a ticket.

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  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

I'll be honest, i really have no idea how qld hasn't got the tech not to automatically open the doors at short platforms.  Eudlo is the only station where its a problem though.  Rosewood they only use half a train and traveston the guard does nothing, its just the driver or 2nd driver (don't ask me why this is even a thing, its because we are backwards) who checks the front door.  

I suppose they have to lock the doors because an idiot will inevitably fall out, and at eudlo, that may mean a drop of 4-5m due to a bridge.

Sydney does have a few stations with decent curves, mainly on the northern line but nothing compared to queensland (think of a station on the north melbourne flyover for you melburnians).   Park rd platform 4 went unused for over a decade because that was considered too sharp to be used safely.  

I can just imagine the costs required to bring every station up to a DAA standard with relatively safe waiting areas at the end of the platform would be far more than simply employing a guard.  I would also something cost a little bit more money and give someone a job.   Can't stand places that make people obsolete for relatively little savings.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
All very good, but how do you get a disabled cab at Linden on a weekend? As far as it being OK at staffed stations, do you have any idea, for instance, what stations on any of the interurban lines are staffed after 10am in Sydney? Just a little hint-not many, and that is during the week, on a weekend you could probably count them without taking off both shoes. Maybe in other states, but in NSW drivers do not have the ability to ring stations for any reason. As for guards roaming trains for revenue protection, one of our previous governments removed the ability for anyone other than transits/police and the current revenue protection staff to check tickets or collect unpaid fares, that is why staff at station barriers had no interest in you showing them a ticket.
Throughwestmail
I typed that post up twice this morning but neither went through and there was a few bits left out in the third version.

I don't believe its going to be practical for removing the guards from the IU's because the high number of small and low use stations probably means the guard is better left in place and they can add value with revenue protection as they do in Italy.

The question is however is a guard needed from Central to Penrith/Hornsby if the trains have the suitable technology in place as mentioned before. Trains are only stopping a few places which are typically manned major stations, easily monitored by wireless technology etc?

Just because the govt made those decisions in the past, doesn't mean it cannot be reversed. If I can watch a 50+ year old woman walk a 8-10 car DD train in Italy, checking and selling tickets as she goes, helping disabled passengers by checking out the door at every station and clearing the train with a bell at that station, then they can do it in Australia. You don't need to be a cop or TP to check for tickets, if the passenger gives cheek, just call it through and let the cops deal with it. They will have video evidence.

Maybe in other states, but in NSW drivers do not have the ability to ring stations for any reason. Not sure what this means, but I suspect you mean clear a train. It obviously happens in Mel, Adelaide and Perth so it can be done. Again, lets look at technology of today and tomorrow, not hang ups from the past. Aside from that, there are numerous and potentially very costly hurdles to over come in Sydney and I don't think some lines in Brisbane will see the loss of guards for a long long time. GC line to airport should be fairly straight forward as most stations are new. There is where line segregation comes in handy as its possible to make changes one line at a time. Carlingford shorely could be converted now very easily.

The critical part in all this if you don't buy the DOO capable rolling stock, things will always be hard/costly to change.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Overall I suspect that to make all stations DAA compliant is an excessive cost and that some lessor used stations simply don't justify the cost and there are alternatives. For example
RTT_Rules

And ... will probably be impossible if we add yet another loading gauge to the fleet with these "narrow" OSCARs Smile.

BTW, just come back from the Blue Mountains with my kids and even I was surprised at the gap between the XPT and V Set doors at Katoomba station.  It seemed like a good metre, my 10yo was struggling to step across the gap, 8you couldn't have done it without assistance or jumping.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
In the cold dark reality of considering the 'Bottom Line Dollar', Guards today are an unneeded luxury that can and WILL be eventually removed just as Brakevans were from Freight trains.
I was told by my 2 IC of the District one day as we argued about closing sidings and other storage facilities and he said 'You dont spend for Failures that may never happen'.
And nothing has happened either so you cant argue with that kind of logic.
One of the previous posts was quite scathing of the treatment of any Passenger needing assistance but their not wanted as they are not a big enough market to cater for.
Today the Railways, Bus's and Trams management are there to run a transport system the way they want it to run, not as you want it.
Like most problems, many can be solved by spending MONEY to remove it but that is something most Operators shy away from.

I lived to eat my words eventually after I was asked if I had any suggestions to improve some working in my own location by perhaps cutting staff or grades, multiskilling etc and I suggested they go for broke and spend M.O.N.E.Y to modenise the system and then they could get rid of everybody which is exactly what did happen a few years later !!!

I gather they used to have Drivers (Guards too?) on standby on Central Station during Peak hour to handle any short notice problems but I dont believe that is done today.
  Nar-Nar Station Staff

I'll be honest, i really have no idea how qld hasn't got the tech not to automatically open the doors at short platforms.  Eudlo is the only station where its a problem though.  Rosewood they only use half a train and traveston the guard does nothing, its just the driver or 2nd driver (don't ask me why this is even a thing, its because we are backwards) who checks the front door.  
tazzer96
It was never specified in IMU160 [which is pushing on 15 year old design spec now] and I don't think it was specified in NGR. If thou does not ask, thou does no receive.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I'll be honest, i really have no idea how qld hasn't got the tech not to automatically open the doors at short platforms.  Eudlo is the only station where its a problem though.  Rosewood they only use half a train and Traveston the guard does nothing, its just the driver or 2nd driver (don't ask me why this is even a thing, its because we are backwards) who checks the front door.  
It was never specified in IMU160 [which is pushing on 15 year old design spec now] and I don't think it was specified in NGR. If thou does not ask, thou does no receive.
Nar-Nar

Really no need for this technology considering the limited number of stations and sets that see these stations.

The Rosewood line, watch these stations be extended to 6 car within 10 years. As for the NCL short stations, I'm sure they are a head ache in the ivory towers safety department with conflicting standards applied to the rest of the commuter network but public pressure keeps them from being closed and the numbers are so small that its easier to look the other way and focus on real issues. As soon as there is an incident, what the knee jerk reaction.

Sydney has multiple lines with multiple short and often busy stations serviced on hourly frequency or better.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

rosewood has platform 2 if needed.  But thomas street has only just been extended to 4 cars.   Wulkuraka i believe they destroyed part of the platform so it can't be easily RE-extended to 6 cars,
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

In the cold dark reality of considering the 'Bottom Line Dollar', Guards today are an unneeded luxury that can and WILL be eventually removed just as Brakevans were from Freight trains.
I was told by my 2 IC of the District one day as we argued about closing sidings and other storage facilities and he said 'You dont spend for Failures that may never happen'.
And nothing has happened either so you cant argue with that kind of logic.
One of the previous posts was quite scathing of the treatment of any Passenger needing assistance but their not wanted as they are not a big enough market to cater for.
Today the Railways, Bus's and Trams management are there to run a transport system the way they want it to run, not as you want it.
Like most problems, many can be solved by spending MONEY to remove it but that is something most Operators shy away from.

I lived to eat my words eventually after I was asked if I had any suggestions to improve some working in my own location by perhaps cutting staff or grades, multiskilling etc and I suggested they go for broke and spend M.O.N.E.Y to modenise the system and then they could get rid of everybody which is exactly what did happen a few years later !!!

I gather they used to have Drivers (Guards too?) on standby on Central Station during Peak hour to handle any short notice problems but I dont believe that is done today.
gordon_s1942

Disabled people are not a market. They are passengers and the law says that they have to be treated equally and have the same access to public transport as abled bodies people. In Sydney at least there are quite a lot of disabled people who use buses and trains. In my family there are 3 people who are disabled and use public transport.

The new metro being built will not need guards because it is being designed from the start to not need them or a driver. But on a 160 year old legacy train system that has significant access and safety issues due to large gaps across a fair portion of the 178 suburban and 100+ outersuburban/interurban network then guards are important. The Sydney network would be in chaos without a driver/guard system.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
rosewood has platform 2 if needed.  But thomas street has only just been extended to 4 cars.   Wulkuraka i believe they destroyed part of the platform so it can't be easily RE-extended to 6 cars,
tazzer96
Not sure why Thomas Street would be extended to 4 cars when Brisbane operates only 3 and 6 car trains apart from ICE sets which only service the Sunshine Coast.

Wulkurka, The satellite picture doesn't seem to show any limitations to extension East or West, but the resolution is limited and not that clear. I'd be surprised any work was allowed to be undertaken that would prevent future extension to 6 cars, unless the plan was to relocate the station at that time. However as there appears to be lift access now at the station, relocation is assumed to be unlikely.

EDIT: I checked QR's online DAA station access details and its dated Sept 2013 and says crossing is at track level. The satellite photo which includes a complete new maintenance facility for the new trains doesn't seem to indicate this. As there is some sort of structure across the station and tracks and no signs of anything at grade across the tracks, only where it may have been which according to dated Streetview photos was the western side of the station. If QR's public access information is out of date on such a critical issue, then they need a kick up the bum.

Potentially the platform works reported for the station may have been for the lifts that provide access to both platforms and street side of the new rail access into the depo. No way the safety team in the project would have allowed a greenfield pedestrian at grade crossing on the new line into the depo, so while they are the new lifts services both platforms.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

rosewood has platform 2 if needed.  But thomas street has only just been extended to 4 cars.   Wulkuraka i believe they destroyed part of the platform so it can't be easily RE-extended to 6 cars,
Not sure why Thomas Street would be extended to 4 cars when Brisbane operates only 3 and 6 car trains apart from ICE sets which only service the Sunshine Coast.

Wulkurka, The satellite picture doesn't seem to show any limitations to extension East or West, but the resolution is limited and not that clear. I'd be surprised any work was allowed to be undertaken that would prevent future extension to 6 cars, unless the plan was to relocate the station at that time. However as there appears to be lift access now at the station, relocation is assumed to be unlikely.

EDIT: I checked QR's online DAA station access details and its dated Sept 2013 and says crossing is at track level. The satellite photo which includes a complete new maintenance facility for the new trains doesn't seem to indicate this. As there is some sort of structure across the station and tracks and no signs of anything at grade across the tracks, only where it may have been which according to dated Streetview photos was the western side of the station. If QR's public access information is out of date on such a critical issue, then they need a kick up the bum.

Potentially the platform works reported for the station may have been for the lifts that provide access to both platforms and street side of the new rail access into the depo. No way the safety team in the project would have allowed a greenfield pedestrian at grade crossing on the new line into the depo, so while they are the new lifts services both platforms.
RTT_Rules
Wulkuraka had platforms which were over 6 cars long, but the platform was fenced off at the middle so only 3 cars could use it, and only that part was maintained.  
Before the bombardier facility was built and in conjunction the upgrade to walkuraka station, it did have a pedestrian LX. Now its a proper overpass with lifts.

No one really knows why thomas st was lengthened by only 1 car.  It wasn't done in conjunction with any other major works to track or station either.  Maybe we might see trains terminating at thomas st, then heading straight into the depot.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thanks but how does making it a 4 car station make it viable to terminate at and why do to both platforms.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Most, if not all, Melbourne stations have a small shelter at the up-end of the up platform and the down-end of the down platform, ie the front of the train, unless the main shelter is located there. Passengers that require a ramp to board are encouraged to use the front of the train and give the driver a note with their destination on it (bear in mind they may not speak clearly). Cyclists are not permitted to board at the front door of the train. It's best to travel at the back anyway, as you can use the wheelchair area, provided it's not required, which it seldom is because of the above. Overall I haven't noticed any significant delays caused by the driver deploying the ramp. At most it occurs at two or three stations on a trip.

At some stations, eg Flinders Street, it can be confusing as to which end is the front of a particular train. The other day we were boarding the back of the train at Flinders Street. A woman in a wheelchair thought it was the front. The train was going via the City Loop rather than direct Richmond. She had to travel all the way to the other end of the train, although fortunately there was plenty of time and I think an off-duty driver alerted our driver to the situation. We thought about offering to lift her on but we would not have been at the other end to lift her off. Probably not a good idea anyway.

The Public Transport  Victoria (PTV) site has information about Accessible transport on Victoria's trains, trams and buses. For example, it lists the routes that are fully low-floor tram and those that have some. The TramTracker app, for one, gives details of the next low-floor tram on the latter routes.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Thanks but how does making it a 4 car station make it viable to terminate at and why do to both platforms.
"RTT Rules"
Probably because you can now step off the platform from the trailing cab of the leading 3 car set, into the leading cab of the trailing set with your gear, without having to climb down. The same way you see those dinky little galvanised 10m platforms at terminating locations like Beenleigh halfway down the siding.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thanks but how does making it a 4 car station make it viable to terminate at and why do to both platforms.
Probably because you can now step off the platform from the trailing cab of the leading 3 car set, into the leading cab of the trailing set with your gear, without having to climb down. The same way you see those dinky little galvanised 10m platforms at terminating locations like Beenleigh halfway down the siding.
KRviator
If they can do it with a 10m platform, why the need to extend a 80m platform? Why does a train need to terminate here anyway, Ipswich was just 2min to the east?
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Thanks but how does making it a 4 car station make it viable to terminate at and why do to both platforms.
Probably because you can now step off the platform from the trailing cab of the leading 3 car set, into the leading cab of the trailing set with your gear, without having to climb down. The same way you see those dinky little galvanised 10m platforms at terminating locations like Beenleigh halfway down the siding.
If they can do it with a 10m platform, why the need to extend a 80m platform? Why does a train need to terminate here anyway, Ipswich was just 2min to the east?
RTT_Rules
I was thinking terminating for revenue passenger services. so they can still do it with 2x3 car train.    
I would say there might be some starting/terminating trains here because there is likely to be some trains stabled at wulkuraka.

Having more trains on the west of ipswich is needed.   Thomas St and east ipswich stations in a similar area, but since east ipswich has a heap more trains, it is vastly more popular.  It also opens up some better operational efficiencies so you can return more trains instead of sending most of them into the stabling yard at ipswich.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The issue I have with this being a intentional change to terminate a revenue service is how does extending the platform by one car get past the risk revenues during the project? Adding another 2 cars worth in that terrain and on straight track is very cheap. We have seen at Wukuranka that they spent millions building a tri lift Arial crossing because a new yard line was to cross a pedestrian at grade crossing. They had 6 car platforms and cut to 3 cars. The new yard could have (and should have) been built such that it was accessed after the Wukuranka station (or station moved) and such that it would have provided an easy increased level of service to here and could have been done cheaply.

Thomas Street 4 car just doesn't make sense.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Thanks but how does making it a 4 car station make it viable to terminate at and why do to both platforms.
Probably because you can now step off the platform from the trailing cab of the leading 3 car set, into the leading cab of the trailing set with your gear, without having to climb down. The same way you see those dinky little galvanised 10m platforms at terminating locations like Beenleigh halfway down the siding.
If they can do it with a 10m platform, why the need to extend a 80m platform? Why does a train need to terminate here anyway, Ipswich was just 2min to the east?
RTT_Rules
At a guess...To give a little more leeway because you're approaching this platform at line speed, rather than the 25km/hr you get in a typical yard environment.

As to why terminate there? Why terminate trains at Macarthur when Campbelltown is 2 minutes east? Because they can. To free up paths for other terminating trains.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
At a guess...To give a little more leeway because you're approaching this platform at line speed, rather than the 25km/hr you get in a typical yard environment.

As to why terminate there? Why terminate trains at Macarthur when Campbelltown is 2 minutes east? Because they can. To free up paths for other terminating trains.
KRviator
No, I don't think so. Ipswich has four platforms to terminate trains and allow through running and all the facilities of a major station. Thomas Street, basically a very low key outer suburban station with minimal facilities for pax or staff and no cross overs is only one stop further along and its patronage will always limited as its basically in the corner up against a valley on two sides with no bridges. On the other side side of the river/valley is Wukuranka station.

The drivers can pretty much nail the stop boards on the Gold Coast line coming in from 140km/hr and the tolerance is also limited to +/- a few metres.

Also at 4 cars in length it is not intended to be used to terminate revenue trains that are 6 car long with no platform detection on the doors, the guard could not open the doors on the 3 car set hanging off the platform anyway and on the NG trains, they are fixed 6 car sets, cannot open any doors.

The mystery I'm sure will reveal itself.

The far western line will be extended to 6 car length platforms by 2035- 2040 as the existing 3 car sets progressively get phased out.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

No, I don't think so. Ipswich has four platforms to terminate trains and allow through running and all the facilities of a major station. Thomas Street, basically a very low key outer suburban station with minimal facilities for pax or staff and no cross overs is only one stop further along and its patronage will always limited as its basically in the corner up against a valley on two sides with no bridges. On the other side side of the river/valley is Wukuranka station.

The drivers can pretty much nail the stop boards on the Gold Coast line coming in from 140km/hr and the tolerance is also limited to +/- a few metres.

Also at 4 cars in length it is not intended to be used to terminate revenue trains that are 6 car long with no platform detection on the doors, the guard could not open the doors on the 3 car set hanging off the platform anyway and on the NG trains, they are fixed 6 car sets, cannot open any doors.

The mystery I'm sure will reveal itself.

The far western line will be extended to 6 car length platforms by 2035- 2040 as the existing 3 car sets progressively get phased out.
RTT_Rules
Probably in a similar fashion as to eudlo operates.  While timetables and all say detrain first 3 cars only, in reality its the first 4.  NGR's might have the tech to control which doors open, so that will be good.  Older sets guard just walks along train, anyone not in first/last 4 carriages tells them to move down.  

While Ipswich does have 4 platforms, its kind of a weird one to terminate at.   Because its the middle two platforms that are the through roads.  But platform 2 crosses over halfway along platform 3 (very long platform) as well. Platform 1 is essentially a dead end which is the main terminating rd for trains to and from brisbane.  platform 2 is the platform that rosewood shuttles use.  In short it doesn't have the capacity to terminate and return 10 tph.  Many end up going to the yard and the occasional through rosewood train.  Hence why rosewood is best serviced between 3:30am and 5am (yes, morning).
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

We are getting a bit off topic.  I don't know why they are trying to get rid of guards off the intercity fleet.   Currently the intercity network has less safety systems in place, and you have most stations unattended and with short platforms.

Only the express newcastle services would benefit from driver only.   Simply because every stop (please correct me if there is one or two without staff) is staffed everyday and at the moment, most are full length platforms.  

There are better places in sydney trains and NSW trainlink to try and get rid of guards.   Eg carlingford, Olympic park, ESR.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
More on this in the Blue Mountains media this week:
http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/4278282/come-clean-on-train-cost/?cs=1432

Member for Blue Mountains Trish Doyle has called on NSW transport minister Andrew Constance to “come clean on the true cost” of the new intercity train fleet due in 2019.

The government confirmed last month that modifications will be needed on the Blue Mountains line to fit the South Korean-built trains. But it has declined to elaborate on the cost or scope of this work.

Responding to Gazette questions about the estimated cost of the work, a Transport for NSW spokesman stated: “Modification work is subject to a tender process, and the budget will not be released to ensure taxpayers receive the best value for money.” However, the spokesman said an allowance for the work had been made in the project budget.

In NSW Parliament on Tuesday, Trish Doyle called on the Parliament to direct the transport minister to outline precisely how much the rectification works will cost.

“I have been raising the South Korean trains’ incompatibility with the Blue Mountains line for over seven months now, and it’s clear that minister Constance doesn’t have a clue what is going on,” Ms Doyle said.

“There has been some considerable spin put on this so far by Transport NSW. They are promising to make the trains fit by shaving back platform edges, but the costly and time-consuming work they don’t want to talk about is in the widening of bridges, tunnels, cuttings and tight curves. That’s where the real money is going to need to be spent.”

Cost fears surround the rail tunnels between Bell and Lithgow. Known as the Ten Tunnels Deviation, they were built in 1905 to a pre-Federation standard that is too narrow for wide body trains such as the Waratah and Oscar trains on which the V-Set replacement train is to be based. Mr Doyle said the minister is “afraid” to admit the problem.

“These trains don’t fit. Full stop. The government has bought trains that do not fit the tracks. I want to say it’s funny, but it’s a pretty sick joke at the expense of taxpayers, actually.

“Not only will they refuse to say how much it is going to cost, they cannot tell us how long it will take and how long the Blue Mountains line will be out of action while they do the work.”

In response to Ms Doyle’s attack, transport minister Andrew Constance raised an earlier call by public transport lobby group, EcoTransit Sydney, that the new trains might not operate beyond Mount Victoria – an issue not raised by Ms Doyle in her latest comments. Mr Constance said these claims were “a bald-faced lie”. “The new intercity fleet will be able to operate along the entire Blue Mountains line to Lithgow.”
BMG:
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

We are getting a bit off topic.  I don't know why they are trying to get rid of guards off the intercity fleet.   Currently the intercity network has less safety systems in place, and you have most stations unattended and with short platforms.

Only the express newcastle services would benefit from driver only.   Simply because every stop (please correct me if there is one or two without staff) is staffed everyday and at the moment, most are full length platforms.  

There are better places in sydney trains and NSW trainlink to try and get rid of guards.   Eg carlingford, Olympic park, ESR.
tazzer96

Olympic park is a yes because it isn't an intense or time sensitive service. There is only the sprint platform and olympic park stops. In this situation the driver could easily also be a guard. ESR is definitely not viable for the driver to do guard duties because it is high frequency and time sensitive service and is connected to the illawarra line. Carlingford is a line that will eventually be converted to light rail and so isn't really worth worrying about.

I'm not buying the whole removing guards will make the service more profitable because the guards allow a high frequency service in the peak hour. With the driver focused solely on driving it makes them less prone to mistakes and while some on here will point to waterfall. There are many many more incidents that aren't incidents that some of you are not aware of that without a guard a situation could have been a lot worse or even tragic.

Obviously the new metro is different but that is purely because it is designed as a modern train system that doesn't require a driver or a guard. With platform screen doors and level boarding like a lift it also removes several safety and access issues that are prevalent on the current Sydney network. This government is also getting rid of station staff at many stations and so the guard has to fill roles that station staff used to do as well.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Quite easy to find this about Melbourne's guard less system on google. Not so on Sydney's system. Mind you that is probably also due to the small doors on a train system that has gaps as well.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Does V/line make use of guards?   I know they have them for the long distance services. (maybe not a guard, but someone who performs guard like duties, similar to NSW trainlink).   Do the velocity's use guards?  

The melbourne suburban system gets away with it because its so flat, stations are dead straight and at carriage level.  
But Metro also are the worst rail providers in the nation.   While most of v/lines issues are because they don't have enough rollingstock.

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