XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner


Where is the tunnel between Casino and Lismore? I know there are many bridges but I can't see a tunnel on Google Earth.Naughton gap.  Near naughtons gap rd.  its 9km by rail from casino.


Car being king is one reason why its down, not the only one. but why is the car king.  Its because we stuff so much money into making the car the king.  

Pretty sure if you tried to make every single road in the nation a toll road and charged people for its use, there would be a  uprising.  People wouldn't be using a car if their drive to work cost them $20 in tolls everyday.
If you were interested in making rail king then you wouldn't be using these alignments would you?
simstrain
no way.    But the car has become so good because we have made roads like Hume and Pacific highways so good.  
Just remember that it wasn't even that long ago that the principle route between brisbane and sydney was via the new england highway.  

Point is, if you charged people for how much a road costs, they wouldn't use it.   NCL and main south would have been rebuilt to 200+ km/h standard 20 years ago.

I'm not against roads at all.  I love driving, its one of my favourite things to do.   But I also realise that the money spent on roads could be spent on many other and IMO, better things.   Its not that the money should be instead spent on rail, but having better parks, hospitals etc are important to me.

A qld example.   1.1 billion on 12 km MBRL is a waste of money and public outcry.  Meanwhile 700 million spent on upgrading a 2 km road that will save people 30 seconds, despite having lower traffic than 10 years = vital public infrastructure.

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  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I doubt freight has any real potential on that line aside from perhaps some port shuttles to the area just north of the GC.  The current NCL could handle the rest if it eventuates (which you are doubtful of in other threads anyway).  You could still run port shuttles on NG anyway, the Qld NCL is NG and the rolling stock could do the job (assuming loading gauge and timetables - and more importantly economics allow).
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Only few months ago the subsidy per passenger for each Qld service was published.

I previously thought I saw that average CL subsidy in % terms is less than City rail of old.

At one point CL biggest cost or one of them was running the booking system. Ie revenue collection. Comments such as using an honesty box may have delivered more income at lower cost were suggested.

2+3 seating on CL rolling stock is ridiculous, verging on stupid. The only way it would work practically is for CL to offer a 3rd class seating only offered for trips of less than 2hr. Even then due to the relatively short trains on most services the benefit is not worth the computer programming time.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

I previously thought I saw that average CL subsidy in % terms is less than City rail of old.
RTT_Rules
Probably is less now.   Over the last decade they have cut a lot of staff from stations.   Due to the internet less people are required for customer service and booking services.
The speeds and efficiencies on the routes have improved.   e.g no more electric staff nonsense on the ncl, passing lanes on the NE and main south.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
OTOH the sleeping carriages on the XPT are able to be used on the return leg which is in daylight, potentially carrying 6 people per compartment.
a6et

Err....no Exclamation

A standard 1st class corridor car compartment seats six.

A standard XPT sleeping berth for day use sits three pax.

Mike.
  a6et Minister for Railways

OTOH the sleeping carriages on the XPT are able to be used on the return leg which is in daylight, potentially carrying 6 people per compartment.

Err....no Exclamation

A standard 1st class corridor car compartment seats six.

A standard XPT sleeping berth for day use sits three pax.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Ok! still better than sitting around in a siding or not having any passengers.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I doubt freight has any real potential on that line aside from perhaps some port shuttles to the area just north of the GC.  The current NCL could handle the rest if it eventuates (which you are doubtful of in other threads anyway).  You could still run port shuttles on NG anyway, the Qld NCL is NG and the rolling stock could do the job (assuming loading gauge and timetables - and more importantly economics allow).
james.au

You are correct on my thoughts in other threads about freight. My point was that for the murwillumbah line to be viable that it would need to have some freight as well and NG is never going to be allowed for any longer then the small distance at the GC airport.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
IDK - if there are a few pax services per day (which may not be out of the question), then the amount spent on the track etc might be worth it (in an economic sense anyway).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

IDK - if there are a few pax services per day (which may not be out of the question), then the amount spent on the track etc might be worth it (in an economic sense anyway).
james.au

How will it make money is the question. This byron bay rail will be funded by a $3 a way fare and it links the byron bay cbd with a housing estate and resort. Lets see if this makes money before you can this statement.
  a6et Minister for Railways

IDK - if there are a few pax services per day (which may not be out of the question), then the amount spent on the track etc might be worth it (in an economic sense anyway).
james.au
When the old motorail used to run, the service was ultra popular for locals to head to Byron Bay for a day trip at the beach, so much so that there was rarely an empty seat after Lismore. A lot would get on at Casino as well. very very popular in the school holidays.

Many other country trains were popular for sporting events, many would travel on the old Wallangarra service which ran on Saturdays from there to Sydney on the Sunday morning, it became a sell out when various sporting events were being played especially afternoon RL matches and more so the Grand Final. They would book to head back on the Sunday night Glenn Innes train, often a full load owing to extra carriages being put on.

The 620 class that is looked at to provide local BB shuttles could be very easily used to run to Casino or even Lismore to provide a similar service to BB for a day at the beach.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

IDK - if there are a few pax services per day (which may not be out of the question), then the amount spent on the track etc might be worth it (in an economic sense anyway).
When the old motorail used to run, the service was ultra popular for locals to head to Byron Bay for a day trip at the beach, so much so that there was rarely an empty seat after Lismore. A lot would get on at Casino as well. very very popular in the school holidays.

Many other country trains were popular for sporting events, many would travel on the old Wallangarra service which ran on Saturdays from there to Sydney on the Sunday morning, it became a sell out when various sporting events were being played especially afternoon RL matches and more so the Grand Final. They would book to head back on the Sunday night Glenn Innes train, often a full load owing to extra carriages being put on.

The 620 class that is looked at to provide local BB shuttles could be very easily used to run to Casino or even Lismore to provide a similar service to BB for a day at the beach.
a6et

For this you should refer to Newcastle. If Newcastle can't sustain a rail line then how will the murwillumbah line work.

The car is so much more easier because it doesn't need a timetable and the 620 on the BB shuttle will be under powered and they eventually want to run it on solar power. That means no mountain climbing and therefore no service to casino. At most that service will extend to ocean shores to the north if it is successful.
  georges Train Controller

When the old motorail used to run, the service was ultra popular for locals to head to Byron Bay for a day trip at the beach, so much so that there was rarely an empty seat after Lismore. A lot would get on at Casino as well. very very popular in the school holidays.

Many other country trains were popular for sporting events, many would travel on the old Wallangarra service which ran on Saturdays from there to Sydney on the Sunday morning, it became a sell out when various sporting events were being played especially afternoon RL matches and more so the Grand Final. They would book to head back on the Sunday night Glenn Innes train, often a full load owing to extra carriages being put on.

The 620 class that is looked at to provide local BB shuttles could be very easily used to run to Casino or even Lismore to provide a similar service to BB for a day at the beach.
a6et
When travelling on the Canberra XPL I have occasionally spoken to, or noticed, other passengers travelling Bungendore/Canberra and vice versa.
  a6et Minister for Railways

IDK - if there are a few pax services per day (which may not be out of the question), then the amount spent on the track etc might be worth it (in an economic sense anyway).
When the old motorail used to run, the service was ultra popular for locals to head to Byron Bay for a day trip at the beach, so much so that there was rarely an empty seat after Lismore. A lot would get on at Casino as well. very very popular in the school holidays.

Many other country trains were popular for sporting events, many would travel on the old Wallangarra service which ran on Saturdays from there to Sydney on the Sunday morning, it became a sell out when various sporting events were being played especially afternoon RL matches and more so the Grand Final. They would book to head back on the Sunday night Glenn Innes train, often a full load owing to extra carriages being put on.

The 620 class that is looked at to provide local BB shuttles could be very easily used to run to Casino or even Lismore to provide a similar service to BB for a day at the beach.

For this you should refer to Newcastle. If Newcastle can't sustain a rail line then how will the murwillumbah line work.

The car is so much more easier because it doesn't need a timetable and the 620 on the BB shuttle will be under powered and they eventually want to run it on solar power. That means no mountain climbing and therefore no service to casino. At most that service will extend to ocean shores to the north if it is successful.
simstrain
And there you have shot yourself in the foot with Newcastle.  The service to Newcastle was more popular and used than the official government publicity put out. When the government has an agenda they make sure the agenda gets up.

You are very negative in relation to rail services in the bush, especially your preferences for bustitutions taking over.  The simple aspect that I was highlighting with the MR service was how empty seats were filled and consistently so.

Having worked as a driver and on more than enough committees that were railway and government funded ones, I've seen a lot more from the inside as to what went on, and I have no reason to believe that its no different today.
  a6et Minister for Railways

When the old motorail used to run, the service was ultra popular for locals to head to Byron Bay for a day trip at the beach, so much so that there was rarely an empty seat after Lismore. A lot would get on at Casino as well. very very popular in the school holidays.

Many other country trains were popular for sporting events, many would travel on the old Wallangarra service which ran on Saturdays from there to Sydney on the Sunday morning, it became a sell out when various sporting events were being played especially afternoon RL matches and more so the Grand Final. They would book to head back on the Sunday night Glenn Innes train, often a full load owing to extra carriages being put on.

The 620 class that is looked at to provide local BB shuttles could be very easily used to run to Casino or even Lismore to provide a similar service to BB for a day at the beach.
When travelling on the Canberra XPL I have occasionally spoken to, or noticed, other passengers travelling Bungendore/Canberra and vice versa.
georges
Georges, that the very thing that I tried to point out, much of this and similar threads seem to place the emphasis on a service that runs from A-B with passengers travelling the whole distance from and too those points.  For the record most of the XPT NCL services that I have travelled on both from MBWH and Casino, have an announcement from the on board crew telling the passengers that the train is fully booked through the journey and to remain in their allocated seats.  At some locations a passenger when getting off is immediately replaced by another one getting on. So the trains are popular for many purposses when seats are available.

NSW lost a lot of passengers when they went to fully booked seats only even on the mail trains. As the powers to be allocated a set number of seats to each station on the line. Once a station filled their quota they had to turn people away, they could not get seats from another station down the line if they had spares either. A time went by when their was a dumb advertising program telling passengers who had decided to not travel and not advised the railways and booking clerks of their decsions meant many complaints about trains having emprty seats while passengers complained about them being told no empty seats.  That campaign was basically short lived as often the so called passenger could never be found for follow up. It did not change anything though.

On some shorter travels many would board the trains and finding no seats left stood for the journey, they rarelly complained either and beat walking or driving all night.  Point is they were denied the chance to travel not just sitting but standing.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

XPT Country train "replacement" has been "accelerated"

Translated: Um ur premier, I have a b-b-buy-election (yes buy, not by) in the seat of Orange in a few weeks, and their is a high change th-th-that I-I-I could loose my-my-my seat. Can you think of something that may help.

Um okay then, get on ya knees deputy premier, and how about taking this to the people . . ."

Oh thank you "boss", that should do

Seriously, the only XPT & Xplorer replacements are likely to see are rubber-tyred carriages, known more as buses, coaches &/or taxis.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner


For this you should refer to Newcastle. If Newcastle can't sustain a rail line then how will the murwillumbah line work.

The car is so much more easier because it doesn't need a timetable and the 620 on the BB shuttle will be under powered and they eventually want to run it on solar power. That means no mountain climbing and therefore no service to casino. At most that service will extend to ocean shores to the north if it is successful.
simstrain
What do you mean newcastle can't sustain  a rail service.   There is a train every 30 minutes between telerah and hamilton on weekdays.
  a6et Minister for Railways


For this you should refer to Newcastle. If Newcastle can't sustain a rail line then how will the murwillumbah line work.

The car is so much more easier because it doesn't need a timetable and the 620 on the BB shuttle will be under powered and they eventually want to run it on solar power. That means no mountain climbing and therefore no service to casino. At most that service will extend to ocean shores to the north if it is successful.What do you mean newcastle can't sustain  a rail service.   There is a train every 30 minutes between telerah and hamilton on weekdays.
tazzer96
I would say he's referring to the closure between Hamilton and NCLE, which was political and for money to the government, Lets not forget not just from Telerah there is in off peak an hourly service to and from Sydney, they could still be running trains to and from Toronto and likely Cessnock with effort.  The figures about patronage used by the government were cooked for their benefit.  Don't forget the Dungog, Singleton, Muswellbrook and Scone service either.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

I would say he's referring to the closure between Hamilton and NCLE, which was political and for money to the government, Lets not forget not just from Telerah there is in off peak an hourly service to and from Sydney, they could still be running trains to and from Toronto and likely Cessnock with effort.  The figures about patronage used by the government were cooked for their benefit.  Don't forget the Dungog, Singleton, Muswellbrook and Scone service either.
a6et
I know thats what he was referring to, but want to make a point of newcastle having a rail line through a good portion of the city, and even an interurban connnection.  
Toronto should still be running.  Seeing the platform at fassifern is a sad sight.   I hope they reopen cessnock, toronoto and run 2 car electrics.   Along with electrifying telerah-hamilton and running 2 car electrics there.   Leave the DMU's for the scone/dungog services.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Seriously, the only XPT & Xplorer replacements are likely to see are rubber-tyred carriages, known more as buses, coaches &/or taxis.
Newcastle Express
Fear not.  Lord Mayor of Brisbane graham Quirk has you covered if you need rubber tyred carriages.  Just convert all the mainlines into long distance rubber tyred metro's.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Over the last 50 or more years many wonderful and grandiose plans have been 'floated' on what the future holds regarding both freight and passenger traffic will be.
The BIGGY was with the completion of the Standard Gauge across Australia that container ships could berth in either Sydney or Perth and instead of sailing on either East or West, the containers could be railed across Australia instead.
The non existent Alice Springs to Darwin section was just a gold plated dream back then.
The 'Devil in the Detail' of course was the time factor taken to load/unload the containers TWICE, more than equaled the time and cost taken for the ship to sail on as the were doing now.
I saw a Doco recently that the Panama Canal has just about completed a monumental upgrade to allow much larger vessels to use it to travel between Asia and East Coast of the USA and Europe which is one of the busiest trade routes.
The next of course was the 2000 Olympics when the Hype was that the World would be beating at the Door for Tourism as a result and for awhile it probably did just that until the tyranny of TIME and Distance which adds to the costs of a holiday, soon slowed the Public's interest in visiting.
It would be fantastic to have a 4 Lane Highway encircling Australia with a High Speed Train service between all Capitol Cities along with commuter flights every hour to regional centres but with under 26 Million in Population and the distances between most places, many dreams are going to stay exactly that, DREAMS.

The current plan to replace the existing XPT fleet is riding on the back of funding obtained from selling or leasing off some State assets that took many years to create and I dont see many more being available to continue on with this line of Funding for future developments.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

IDK - if there are a few pax services per day (which may not be out of the question), then the amount spent on the track etc might be worth it (in an economic sense anyway).
When the old motorail used to run, the service was ultra popular for locals to head to Byron Bay for a day trip at the beach, so much so that there was rarely an empty seat after Lismore. A lot would get on at Casino as well. very very popular in the school holidays.

Many other country trains were popular for sporting events, many would travel on the old Wallangarra service which ran on Saturdays from there to Sydney on the Sunday morning, it became a sell out when various sporting events were being played especially afternoon RL matches and more so the Grand Final. They would book to head back on the Sunday night Glenn Innes train, often a full load owing to extra carriages being put on.

The 620 class that is looked at to provide local BB shuttles could be very easily used to run to Casino or even Lismore to provide a similar service to BB for a day at the beach.

For this you should refer to Newcastle. If Newcastle can't sustain a rail line then how will the murwillumbah line work.

The car is so much more easier because it doesn't need a timetable and the 620 on the BB shuttle will be under powered and they eventually want to run it on solar power. That means no mountain climbing and therefore no service to casino. At most that service will extend to ocean shores to the north if it is successful.
And there you have shot yourself in the foot with Newcastle.  The service to Newcastle was more popular and used than the official government publicity put out. When the government has an agenda they make sure the agenda gets up.

You are very negative in relation to rail services in the bush, especially your preferences for bustitutions taking over.  The simple aspect that I was highlighting with the MR service was how empty seats were filled and consistently so.

Having worked as a driver and on more than enough committees that were railway and government funded ones, I've seen a lot more from the inside as to what went on, and I have no reason to believe that its no different today.
a6et

The numbers in Newcastle were not good and if people were using the train without paying then how is that the governments fault. I'm not for truncation and I think there are better options for that which I have put forward in other threads, but if enough people were using Newcastle station on a regular basis it would have been much more difficult to call for the truncation. Almost empty 8 car DD's were not hard to find and point out and use to push an agenda forward.

In regards to the Murwillumbah line, you are talking about a time which no longer exists. The motor rail was successful and could fill seats because at that time the roads were horrible and so were the cars and the travel time. The train was faster and more comfortable and people could put their car on the motorail to get to Sydney instead of driving all the way. These days the drive is much faster then the train and it is only getting faster and safer with new parts of the pacific highway being upgraded.

Please remember that this is 2016 and not 1966.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


For this you should refer to Newcastle. If Newcastle can't sustain a rail line then how will the murwillumbah line work.

The car is so much more easier because it doesn't need a timetable and the 620 on the BB shuttle will be under powered and they eventually want to run it on solar power. That means no mountain climbing and therefore no service to casino. At most that service will extend to ocean shores to the north if it is successful.What do you mean newcastle can't sustain  a rail service.   There is a train every 30 minutes between telerah and hamilton on weekdays.
tazzer96
How do you get in to Newcastle from Hamilton?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Where is the tunnel between Casino and Lismore? I know there are many bridges but I can't see a tunnel on Google Earth.Naughton gap.  Near naughtons gap rd.  its 9km by rail from casino.


Car being king is one reason why its down, not the only one. but why is the car king.  Its because we stuff so much money into making the car the king.  

Pretty sure if you tried to make every single road in the nation a toll road and charged people for its use, there would be a  uprising.  People wouldn't be using a car if their drive to work cost them $20 in tolls everyday.
If you were interested in making rail king then you wouldn't be using these alignments would you?
simstrain
no way.    But the car has become so good because we have made roads like Hume and Pacific highways so good.  
Just remember that it wasn't even that long ago that the principle route between brisbane and sydney was via the new england highway.  

Point is, if you charged people for how much a road costs, they wouldn't use it.   NCL and main south would have been rebuilt to 200+ km/h standard 20 years ago.

I'm not against roads at all.  I love driving, its one of my favourite things to do.   But I also realise that the money spent on roads could be spent on many other and IMO, better things.   Its not that the money should be instead spent on rail, but having better parks, hospitals etc are important to me.

A qld example.   1.1 billion on 12 km MBRL is a waste of money and public outcry.  Meanwhile 700 million spent on upgrading a 2 km road that will save people 30 seconds, despite having lower traffic than 10 years = vital public infrastructure.
"tazzer96"



Toll the Pacific Hwy, like France, you'd have a 4-6 lane proper expressway, it would not be abandoned in droves to PT. Much of today's regional traffic simply not convertible to rail.

There have not been a whole scale outcry of the construction of the MBRL, just the two major screw ups, one by the project contractor and another by QR.

At the end of the day, most the traffic will always be car, look at the EU including Germany where there are no toll roads and 2E a litre fuel cost, the major cities still have major roads and 4-6 lane roads interconnect all the cities.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The current plan to replace the existing XPT fleet is riding on the back of funding obtained from selling or leasing off some State assets that took many years to create and I dont see many more being available to continue on with this line of Funding for future developments.The current position of the NSW govt means it does not have to sell assets to fund new XPT's which would then last another 40 years.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I would say he's referring to the closure between Hamilton and NCLE, which was political and for money to the government, Lets not forget not just from Telerah there is in off peak an hourly service to and from Sydney, they could still be running trains to and from Toronto and likely Cessnock with effort.  The figures about patronage used by the government were cooked for their benefit.  Don't forget the Dungog, Singleton, Muswellbrook and Scone service either.
I know thats what he was referring to, but want to make a point of newcastle having a rail line through a good portion of the city, and even an interurban connnection.  
Toronto should still be running.  Seeing the platform at fassifern is a sad sight.   I hope they reopen cessnock, toronoto and run 2 car electrics.   Along with electrifying telerah-hamilton and running 2 car electrics there.   Leave the DMU's for the scone/dungog services.
tazzer96
Much as I would like to see Toronto return, I doubt the traffic volume have improved to justify it. It was killed off for  reason. There are also many issues to return this line including a series of LX. If anything it could form a LR corridor, maybe.

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