50 level crossings to be removed

 
  RATLSNAKE Chief Train Controller

Correct, it's not a science, it's all people's best-guesses & opinions. But here empirical data is also not needed, simply common sense. Go out to your backyard, imagine a 10m high rail-line next to your property that wasn't there before...do you think that will add value to your property? I cannot think of anyone who could say yes with a straight face.

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  PaulM Station Staff

Correct, it's not a science, it's all people's best-guesses & opinions. But here empirical data is also not needed, simply common sense. Go out to your backyard, imagine a 10m high rail-line next to your property that wasn't there before...do you think that will add value to your property? I cannot think of anyone who could say yes with a straight face.
RATLSNAKE
Common sense also tells me that the world is flat and koalas are bears.

How about we wait for some evidence before bombastically pronouncing judgement?
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Correct, it's not a science, it's all people's best-guesses & opinions. But here empirical data is also not needed, simply common sense. Go out to your backyard, imagine a 10m high rail-line next to your property that wasn't there before...do you think that will add value to your property? I cannot think of anyone who could say yes with a straight face.
RATLSNAKE

You are both right, but the reality is that Ratlsnake is more right.

The properties near the grade separations will suffer a one off hit in price, and then track the rest of the suburb - increasing if the suburb increases. But there will still be a definite fall in value and they are not going to catch up. A real estate agent in Carnegie was reported as suggesting the price hit would be around 10% of the value.

I feel for the people affected. But the same happened when they built the Eastern Freeway. It will happen with the recently announced upgrades of the Monash. It happens when the next door property is sold to a developer who puts a 4 level block of apartments on it. The reverse happened to the people along the Dandenong railway line when the government changed the planning rules about three years ago to allow greater density - the value of their property increased because it was more attractive to developers. Life's a lottery.

Beyond this, there is a deeper reason why the adjacent owners are upset.

Almost everyone buys the best property they can afford in the area they want (or need) to live in. The people currently affected bought next to a railway line (and in the case of the Frankston line, a major arterial road). Their property was already devalued compared with similar properties a bit further back. In the case of the Dandenong line, a local real estate agent estimated that the affected properties were already 10% cheaper than the rest of the suburb. This means that even if they took up the government's offer to buy their property at the pre-project value, they would not get enough money to buy back into their area. They will either 1) have to put in perhaps 10% extra (which many won't be able to afford) to move in the area, 2) uproot and move to another area, or 3) sit and take a hit to the value of their property. I wouldn't be happy either.

A final comment. The people I feel sorriest for are the owners of subdivided blocks and flats adjacent to the grade separations, or those who purchased recently. Owners of established whole house blocks got a windfall gain a couple of years ago when the then Liberal government allowed greater density along the railway lines. So the gains will probably just about cover the losses for those owners. But properties that have already been sold, subdivided or blocks of flats wouldn't have increased in value.

A final final comment. People are very cynical about major projects - once announced the news rarely gets better, it usually gradually gets worse as costs blow out. The best example of that at the moment is the NBN - originally fibre to the home, then fibre to the node, then delivered over coaxial, now some ubeaut untried technology that's just around the corner. Each time the NBN vaguely promises fibre like speeds, but each change is because the new approach is cheaper, not because it delivers better value to the user. So, I think it is entirely reasonable for the locals to say "Yes, they promise that now, but what will actually be delivered?"
  mk4c Station Master


.... I feel for the people affected. But the same happened when they built the Eastern Freeway. .....
historian
When the Eastern Freeway was extended to Springvale Rd the opposite happened. Prior to completion a lot of people were worried about extra noise even though many of them were over half a kilometre from the freeway (my parents fitted this category). There was talk about selling up before the project was completed. Once it had been completed and people found out that the noise was nowhere near as bad as they feared they calmed down.  Then other people discovered how handy it was to have a freeway entrance quite close by and the values of all of the house not immediately adjacent to the freeway suddenly shot up. Similarly Nunawading is a nicer place to be now that the traffic on Springvale Rd isn't jammed solid during peak hour from Canterbury Rd waiting for the Springvale Rd crossing to open.  

Anyone selling before the crossing work is completed will probably suffer a loss because the outcome is uncertain. After completion anyone who isn't actually abutting the railway line should see an increase in value as the peak hour traffic eases a little. Anybody who is currently close to a level crossing will probably find that life is quieter without bells. The problem is simply that nobody can imagine what it will be like until it is built.
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
A big part of the problem is a lot of people fear change, even more so when they can't control it.  When I was living in Glen Waverley there were neighbours still complaining about them moving the Glen Waverley station from Springvale Road to Kingsway.  It has been like that all my life and I remember catching trains from Mount Waverley to the Glen Shopping Centre well before any renovations took place and it was about 1/4 the size it is now- there were even shops (not restaurants) in Kingsway (Glen Waverley) back then.

Then there are those that will only accept change if it is exactly the way they want it - no way will they compromise for anyone else even if their statements defy logic.  A good example is the 'skyrail' protester who complained that lifts were not disabled access as they break down and that was the only disabled access to Skyrail. Obviously this person hasn't used a suburban train to Southern Cross or any of the loop stations. Even public disabled access around Flinder Street is mainly lifts. If they put the tracks under the roads it would probably still be lift access for disabled - such as Nunawading is.

It doesn't just apply to railways. Look at the people who are still running Windows XP and won't update their computer as it will come with a later version of windows.

Also don't forget some people will see a way to make a couple of bucks out of it will try to.  If you own (or have a mortgage on) something you don't actually make a profit or loss until it sells.  Property is no different to the stock market it has ups and downs.  a person could buy the dump of  house next door and either demolish it and build a block of flats or do it up.  Either will impact your property's value  House prices don't just go up - they crashed in the early 1990's so that properties were selling at the prices they sold at 5 years ago or even earlier. There is nothing to stop that happening again but people want to blame something for it so demand compensation for Skyrail to put some of our money in their pockets
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr3hf5SvEbs
Probably a social benefit of level crossings that not many people think about.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
There was some mention In the media the other week that the 50 level crossings removal program will be expanded beyond 50 !

Is there any truth In this ?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
There was some mention In the media the other week that the 50 level crossings removal program will be expanded beyond 50 !

Is there any truth In this ?
Nightfire
Labor promised 50 over 8 years. If they win a second and third term, or the opposition decides its worthwhile continuing if they get in, then probably.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland


Labor promised 50 over 8 years. If they win a second and third term, or the opposition decides its worthwhile continuing if they get in, then probably.
TOQ-1
The 50 crossings were 2 terms of Government 2014-2018 and 2018-2022
  loopy Locomotive Driver

The amount of crossings that are being removed by LXRA is 51, not 50. You also need to take into account that the Charman Rd Cheltenham crossing removal incorporates Park Rd Cheltenham crossing removal as well
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

The amount of crossings that are being removed by LXRA is 51, not 50. You also need to take into account that the Charman Rd Cheltenham crossing removal incorporates Park Rd Cheltenham crossing removal as well
loopy

Actually, it's at least 52 - there is also the (officially unnamed, but usually gets called Mascot Ave, even though it's separate to the street of that name) crossing just north of Patterson River that will be closed as part of the Carrum station works.  It's going to become redundant as Station St will cross the river on another bridge parallel to the Nepean and railway bridges.

Probably even a few more that technically count.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The amount of crossings that are being removed by LXRA is 51, not 50. You also need to take into account that the Charman Rd Cheltenham crossing removal incorporates Park Rd Cheltenham crossing removal as well

Actually, it's at least 52 - there is also the (officially unnamed, but usually gets called Mascot Ave, even though it's separate to the street of that name) crossing just north of Patterson River that will be closed as part of the Carrum station works.  It's going to become redundant as Station St will cross the river on another bridge parallel to the Nepean and railway bridges.

Probably even a few more that technically count.
Adogs
It gets sticky when you call a crossing been closed as been removed !

Like Progress Street level crossing at Dandenong South should be closed and replaced by alternative road links.

The Government would probably like to claim the 5 level crossings along the Wallace - Bungaree loop line as crossings removed (when It's only really a railway line closure)
  doyle Junior Train Controller

I'm sure the government did claim that five level crossings would close in a press release
You're right though it is a line closure
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

The amount of crossings that are being removed by LXRA is 51, not 50. You also need to take into account that the Charman Rd Cheltenham crossing removal incorporates Park Rd Cheltenham crossing removal as well

Actually, it's at least 52 - there is also the (officially unnamed, but usually gets called Mascot Ave, even though it's separate to the street of that name) crossing just north of Patterson River that will be closed as part of the Carrum station works.  It's going to become redundant as Station St will cross the river on another bridge parallel to the Nepean and railway bridges.

Probably even a few more that technically count.
It gets sticky when you call a crossing been closed as been removed !

Like Progress Street level crossing at Dandenong South should be closed and replaced by alternative road links.

The Government would probably like to claim the 5 level crossings along the Wallace - Bungaree loop line as crossings removed (when It's only really a railway line closure)
Nightfire

Wallace-Bungaree is a different case (I haven't seen them included in the listed 50 removals anywhere), but I'd argue in the suburban ones a closure of a level crossing *can* legitimately still be chalked up as a removal.  Hence the name of the LXRA being "Level Crossing Removal Authority"...  Not "Grade Separation Authority" Wink

Closing the semi-nameless level crossing in Bonbeach (in conjunction with connecting Station St over the Patterson Cut) should noticeably improve the traffic flow by keeping Station St local traffic out of the bottleneck of the Nepean Hwy bridge.  So it's at least a minor win, not just a convenient cost-saving feature of the Carrum station elevation.
  loopy Locomotive Driver

At the start of the announcement of LXRA 50 crossing removals, I heard the Bear St crossing [down side Mordialloc station] was due to be separated [most likely with a road hump]. Why was it taken off the list? It even had one of those yellow LXRA signs representing that it was going to be removed, I don't get it...
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
It's not on the original list from December 2014 which is what the government is working off http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/level-crossing-removals-are-labors-priority/

Could you be getting confused with the RACV Wishlist? Or perhaps another list?

In either case, Bear St seems to be close to a few other crossings, as well as the Mordialloc Creek, so it will probably be packed in a group with those. It probably also depends on the future for the Mordialloc stabling.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

Closing the semi-nameless level crossing in Bonbeach (in conjunction with connecting Station St over the Patterson Cut) should noticeably improve the traffic flow by keeping Station St local traffic out of the bottleneck of the Nepean Hwy bridge.  So it's at least a minor win, not just a convenient cost-saving feature of the Carrum station elevation.
Adogs
The crossing your talking about Is called Mascot Avenue (copied and passed from the Vicsig website)
Mascot Avenue F0355 35.547 km 21.25.81 BB PBB

Though odd the LXRA still talk of the Frankston 8 when It should be the Frankston 10 !
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

At the start of the announcement of LXRA 50 crossing removals, I heard the Bear St crossing [down side Mordialloc station] was due to be separated [most likely with a road hump]. Why was it taken off the list? It even had one of those yellow LXRA signs representing that it was going to be removed, I don't get it...
loopy

I've never seen it on any LX removal list, unless maybe it was the RACV wishlist as mentioned above.  Further to that though - I drive past it on my way to work 5 days a week and I'm fairly certain it never had a yellow sign.  EDIT: now you mention it, I think I do remember a yellow sign at the pedestrian crossing between the station and the school, but that was a general "Crossings near here are being removed" sign, not about specifically anything adjacent to the station.

...Either way, I can't see how they could remove it with a road hump.  There isn't enough space for a ramp up in either direction.  The only way it could be removed would be part of a full rebuild of Mordy station AND the stabling, which would be a pretty massive job.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller


Closing the semi-nameless level crossing in Bonbeach (in conjunction with connecting Station St over the Patterson Cut) should noticeably improve the traffic flow by keeping Station St local traffic out of the bottleneck of the Nepean Hwy bridge.  So it's at least a minor win, not just a convenient cost-saving feature of the Carrum station elevation.
The crossing your talking about Is called Mascot Avenue (copied and passed from the Vicsig website)
Mascot Avenue F0355 35.547 km 21.25.81 BB PBB

Though odd the LXRA still talk of the Frankston 8 when It should be the Frankston 10 !
Nightfire

Vicsig and others do indeed call it Mascot Ave for convenience sake.  But to my knowledge it isn't gazetted as such (or at all) with the land council or anywhere else (it may not need a name as it only about 6 m of bitumen and isn't the continuation of any street).  The LXRA videos didn't refer to it by any name other than "the small crossing to the north of the Patterson River bridge".
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

I've never seen it on any LX removal list.

Further to that though - I drive past it on my way to work 5 days a week and I'm fairly certain it never had a yellow sign.

...And either way, there's no way they could remove it with a road hump.  There isn't enough space for a ramp up in either direction.  The only way it could be removed would be part of a full rebuild of Mordy station AND the stabling, which would be a pretty massive job.
Adogs
Never seen an mention of Bear Street been proposed for removal, there were suggestion a Month or two back that the railway would be elevated over the Mordialloc station precinct and a higher bridge over the Mordialloc Creek (you can just hear the NIMBY'S scream)

Checking out the CD9 Project today by train between Caulfield and Yarraman.

Pile foundation construction advancing well at Carnegie, Murrumbeena, Clayton and Noble Park.

A new temporary up line Is under construction each side of Centre Road Clayton to provide some room on the Northern side of the railway easement for pile construction (as there Is a building that has been built so very close to the level crossing, so much for the 2 chain wide railway easement through there)
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Never seen an mention of Bear Street been proposed for removal, there were suggestion a Month or two back that the railway would be elevated over the Mordialloc station precinct and a higher bridge over the Mordialloc Creek (you can just hear the NIMBY'S scream)

Checking out the CD9 Project today by train between Caulfield and Yarraman.

Pile foundation construction advancing well at Carnegie, Murrumbeena, Clayton and Noble Park.

A new temporary up line Is under construction each side of Centre Road Clayton to provide some room on the Northern side of the railway easement for pile construction (as there Is a building that has been built so very close to the level crossing, so much for the 2 chain wide railway easement through there)
Nightfire

Yep...  If Mordy ever gets grade separated, it will have to go elevated.  The station is (at a guess) barely two metres above sea level as is.

I haven't been to look at the CD9 project since it started...  but I'm interested to drive by there - I used to live on Main Rd in Clayton Sth, about 500m from the Centre Rd crossing.  That one was a complete pain in the backside for local traffic (although obviously Clayton Rd crossing itself was worse).
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

New Baysie Station (now known as the Starship Enterprise) opened this morning.  A temporary speed limit of less than 20 km/h noted on the approach.

Free coffee and cupcakes this morning, with a local community choir singing away at the entrance.  Not much of the station is open (just ramp and Myki readers at present).
  lkernan Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
New Baysie Station (now known as the Starship Enterprise)
Carnot

From what I've seen Battlestar Galactica would be more appropriate.
  sterps Train Controller

Location: Wyndham Green, Victoria
With the completion of the Ginifer and St Albans grade separations, I've noticed there doesn't appear to much additional space (if any at all) for a third/fourth rail.
I would have thought this was something that maybe needed in the not too distant future when a higher frequency of regional trains are needed.

Is it feasible to widen the trench?

I remember reading a suggestion on a post here not too long ago, that a they could do a regional rail link via the airport and connect back to the main line somewhere near Sunbury.
Do people think this could be a solution?
I'd think this is a situation that a future government will have to face.
  712M Chief Commissioner

Temporary Belgrave/Lilydale line timetable has been released for the upcoming Box Hill - Ringwood closure. Interesting to note that peak hour express trains will not be running between Box Hill and the City during the course of the works. Rather, all stations except East Richmond trains will run more frequently instead. Are they using the chance while patronage is low to undertake works on the third track whilst that two remaining tracks stay open, or a cost cutting measure to run less trains?

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