V/Line: Victoria rail’s red gum woes

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 01 Jan 2017 15:15
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Really does highlight the long term damage labor has done to the freight network. Under kosky do doubt. This state is in a long term excellent financial position. Why not spend the money and do the job proprly. 

Just criminal.

V/Line: Victoria rail’s red gum woes

Sponsored advertisement

  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Really does highlight the long term damage labor has done to the freight network. Under kosky do doubt. This state is in a long term excellent financial position. Why not spend the money and do the job proprly.

Just criminal.

V/Line: Victoria rail’s red gum woes
bevans
I wouldn't be pointing this solely at the Labor party as I think both sides have failed in this regard. One side chose to use timber sleepers and yet the other side could have fixed this problem and chose not to. We have a newbie in the grain thread complaining about political talk and the first thing you bring up in this thread about a significant issue is political garbage.

This issue really comes down to the rail company not doing it's job properly and telling whatever political party was in charge at the time that timber is not an option. In the end the problem is not political but institutional within the rail company. This is my exact same complaint about the ARTC and the NE line and the re-sleepering project.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

I had some involvement with the Mildura upgrade years ago. There are a certain number of sleepers per km.possibly 1550 and the KPI was a certain number could be substandard/ failed. As they went along resleepering, they would only resleeper enough to meet the minimum standard to cut costs. Doing a full resleeper with gauge convertible concrete on upgraded formation was not considered. It is this minimum standard driving speed restrictions. Properly laid track is quite capable of carrying trains at any speed, the temperature range in Victoria is not high by world standards.
This cutting back also occurred on Alice Darwin, sleeper spacing is for 21t axles and the sleepers are restricted to 127mm foot so rails cannot be upgraded without full resleepering. It saved a couple of dollars a sleeper, a lot of money when you buy them by the million.
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
Rail infrastructure crippled once again by short sighted shlt for brains politicians and/or those who advise them on such matters.  
Absolutely typical that this ineptitude happened in Victoria too (not exclusively I'm sure, but more often than not). Surely we could've borrowed the money to do it properly then, and paid it off for less than the amount we're scheduled to spend on the Murray Basin standardization project? BUT, this also assumes that had it been done properly then, that it would've been with dual gauge sleepers - which I doubt???  (Don't even get me started on adding lanes to the Monash Fwy every 8yrs or so, vs the cost of doing it fully back when we stated that road).

Surely this latest example rates high up on a list of Victorian rail stuff ups, so perhaps someone more with a good memory and the multiple examples we'd surely have can create a thread listing them all??


Regards
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Timber is not an option and has not been a sensible option for many years.

So what does Victoria do? Both persists with timber and reinvents the concrete sleeper with a dodgy design instead that will come to bite it one day.

Some major questions that need to be asked are:

  • What was the standard of all the rail infrastructure when it was 'handed to privatisation'?
  • What was the comparative standard when the Government bought the network back?
  • What is the comparative standard under Vline/Victrack/PTV (whoever) control now?
  • Was there, has there been, is there still a level of asset stripping?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Standing by comments and admiring others.

Let's not forget the RFR cutbacks under bachelor.

The RRL debarcle being the flyover, the non bi directional signalling, no electrification and the lack of wires from Werribee.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Timber is not an option and has not been a sensible option for many years.

So what does Victoria do? Both persists with timber and reinvents the concrete sleeper with a dodgy design instead that will come to bite it one day.

Some major questions that need to be asked are:

  • What was the standard of all the rail infrastructure when it was 'handed to privatisation'?
YM-Mundrabilla
Timber sleepers were being bought from NSW as Victoria had stopped timber sleeper production!
I remember walking the tracks in the 1980's and being appalled at top. line and formation. Jumping on one sleeper and seeing a sleeper a couple of metres away bouncing in a bog hole.
More recently, i caught the bus to Broadmeadows and the train to Craigieburn and being horrified at the main line track which was below the standard for a little used siding, any District Engineer in my day would have been sacked for presenting such track. The sleeper design for the Metro is a shallow sleeper, similar depth to a timber to reduce imact on the formation (ask ARTC about that).
In public or private hands, in my observation, Victoria has always been sub-standard. Even with RRL, putting in bidi so you only needed to upgrade one track!! What the....?
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Timber sleepers were being bought from NSW as Victoria had stopped timber sleeper production!
I remember walking the tracks in the 1980's and being appalled at top. line and formation. Jumping on one sleeper and seeing a sleeper a couple of metres away bouncing in a bog hole.
More recently, i caught the bus to Broadmeadows and the train to Craigieburn and being horrified at the main line track which was below the standard for a little used siding, any District Engineer in my day would have been sacked for presenting such track. The sleeper design for the Metro is a shallow sleeper, similar depth to a timber to reduce imact on the formation (ask ARTC about that).
In public or private hands, in my observation, Victoria has always been sub-standard. Even with RRL, putting in bidi so you only needed to upgrade one track!! What the....?
62440
It's not as if the timber is good quality; we used to get 20-30 years out of timbers sleepers, not anymore.
62440, you mentioned in your earlier post that the Mildura line is laid at 1550 sleepers/km. What size rail? Short rail, long rail, CWR?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
This should be rectified though with he use of the TRS sleepers in the Murray Basin project no?
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
It's not just concrete, a supplier has given a tourist railway* some plastic sleepers to experiment with.

* I think it's Walhalla, but it might be Daylesford.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This should be rectified though with he use of the TRS sleepers in the Murray Basin project no?
james.au
No.
To start with for those that don't know TRS = timber replacement sleeper which are the smaller profile (lightweight) concrete sleepers used to mingle with timber sleepers thereby ensuring that tracks will NEVER be upgraded to full specification concrete sleepers. A typical Victorian solution.Sad
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Timber sleepers were being bought from NSW as Victoria had stopped timber sleeper production!
I remember walking the tracks in the 1980's and being appalled at top. line and formation. Jumping on one sleeper and seeing a sleeper a couple of metres away bouncing in a bog hole.
More recently, i caught the bus to Broadmeadows and the train to Craigieburn and being horrified at the main line track which was below the standard for a little used siding, any District Engineer in my day would have been sacked for presenting such track. The sleeper design for the Metro is a shallow sleeper, similar depth to a timber to reduce imact on the formation (ask ARTC about that).
In public or private hands, in my observation, Victoria has always been sub-standard. Even with RRL, putting in bidi so you only needed to upgrade one track!! What the....?
It's not as if the timber is good quality; we used to get 20-30 years out of timbers sleepers, not anymore.
62440, you mentioned in your earlier post that the Mildura line is laid at 1550 sleepers/km. What size rail? Short rail, long rail, CWR?
Lockspike
It is about that, they would have been laid at regular centres eg 2'5", these days they use sleepers per km. I was not aware of any rerailing, only resleepering up to the minimum allowable. I would guess 80# rail or thereabouts. Incidentally, I drove along the Meringur line years ago and just happened on track removal including a high proportion of steel sleepers from France. The projects were reopening passenger services to Ararat, Bairnsdale, Leongatha and Mildura so 2 of 4 made it. One issue was the self resetting points in loops on the Mildura line so passenger trains couldn't reach the platform on the run back.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ok.

Throwing something else in the mix, how do steel sleepers (used in NSW extensively in the grain line network) rate?  Not as good as full concrete, but im assuming better than Timber and TRS?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I was trying to post something but image posting is just so broken that I give up.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
It's not just concrete, a supplier has given a tourist railway* some plastic sleepers to experiment with.

* I think it's Walhalla, but it might be Daylesford.
Bogong
I think it was a VicTrack- and/or V/Line-run trial, and there is/was testing done at Daylesford (DSCR), VGR and Walhalla (WGR). Happened a few years ago, I haven't heard anything about the results though.

Throwing something else in the mix, how do steel sleepers (used in NSW extensively in the grain line network) rate? Not as good as full concrete, but I'm assuming better than Timber and TRS?
james.au
Steel sleepers are good at one thing - holding gauge. To be properly effective, they have to be tamped along the whole width of the sleeper (which not all production tampers are capable of doing). This is often neglected.
On lightly-laid branch lines, steel sleepers are used in a mix with timber sleepers so that the line holds gauge for a minimum number of sleepers per kilometre.

TRS and 'full-depth' concrete sleepers require much more formation and ballast rehabilitation than timber, composite (plastic) and steel sleepers. The end result with concrete sleepers is superior, but it needs much more effort put into it than the sort of 'patch-up' jobs that V/Line often does.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Steel sleepers are good at one thing - holding gauge. To be properly effective, they have to be tamped along the whole width of the sleeper (which not all production tampers are capable of doing). This is often neglected.
On lightly-laid branch lines, steel sleepers are used in a mix with timber sleepers so that the line holds gauge for a minimum number of sleepers per kilometre.
LancedDendrite
I've noticed the Dock Platform at Kyneton and the Siding at Gisborne both have steel sleepers. This explains why I guess, to keep them in shape while they are not in use for several months.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I was trying to post something but image posting is just so broken that I give up.
simstrain

Try posting it and perhaps someone can work out the code and edit it after you put it up.  Ill look at it, as ive had some problems but solved them with images.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Steel sleepers are good at one thing - holding gauge. To be properly effective, they have to be tamped along the whole width of the sleeper (which not all production tampers are capable of doing). This is often neglected.
On lightly-laid branch lines, steel sleepers are used in a mix with timber sleepers so that the line holds gauge for a minimum number of sleepers per kilometre.

TRS and 'full-depth' concrete sleepers require much more formation and ballast rehabilitation than timber, composite (plastic) and steel sleepers. The end result with concrete sleepers is superior, but it needs much more effort put into it than the sort of 'patch-up' jobs that V/Line often does.
LancedDendrite

I did notice a lot of time was spent tamping the sleepers when they did the branch lines down from West Wyalong to Temora and then out to Griffith.  There was also a bit of surveyor work done at the time too.

Thanks for this.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Steel sleepers are good at one thing - holding gauge. To be properly effective, they have to be tamped along the whole width of the sleeper (which not all production tampers are capable of doing). This is often neglected.
On lightly-laid branch lines, steel sleepers are used in a mix with timber sleepers so that the line holds gauge for a minimum number of sleepers per kilometre.

TRS and 'full-depth' concrete sleepers require much more formation and ballast rehabilitation than timber, composite (plastic) and steel sleepers. The end result with concrete sleepers is superior, but it needs much more effort put into it than the sort of 'patch-up' jobs that V/Line often does.

I did notice a lot of time was spent tamping the sleepers when they did the branch lines down from West Wyalong to Temora and then out to Griffith.  There was also a bit of surveyor work done at the time too.

Thanks for this.
james.au
Steel sleepers need initial extra tamping to push the ballast into the sleeper pod, after that, normal tamping, lateral support is the same for all sleepers, a decent shoulder, but the dipped end of steel sleepers offers lateral stability. Different systems have different preferences, WA goes 1 in 4 steel on the first pass, then 1 in 2, then all steel, as do QR, Vic I think does 1 in 3 steel. Gauge holding is key, firm clips perform better than dog sppikes in daggy timbers.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

It is about that, they would have been laid at regular centres eg 2'5", these days they use sleepers per km. I was not aware of any rerailing, only resleepering up to the minimum allowable. I would guess 80# rail or thereabouts.
62440
Thanks 62440, it's worse than I thought!
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Steel sleepers are good at one thing - holding gauge. To be properly effective, they have to be tamped along the whole width of the sleeper (which not all production tampers are capable of doing). This is often neglected.
On lightly-laid branch lines, steel sleepers are used in a mix with timber sleepers so that the line holds gauge for a minimum number of sleepers per kilometre.

TRS and 'full-depth' concrete sleepers require much more formation and ballast rehabilitation than timber, composite (plastic) and steel sleepers. The end result with concrete sleepers is superior, but it needs much more effort put into it than the sort of 'patch-up' jobs that V/Line often does.

I did notice a lot of time was spent tamping the sleepers when they did the branch lines down from West Wyalong to Temora and then out to Griffith.  There was also a bit of surveyor work done at the time too.

Thanks for this.
Steel sleepers need initial extra tamping to push the ballast into the sleeper pod, after that, normal tamping, lateral support is the same for all sleepers, a decent shoulder, but the dipped end of steel sleepers offers lateral stability. Different systems have different preferences, WA goes 1 in 4 steel on the first pass, then 1 in 2, then all steel, as do QR, Vic I think does 1 in 3 steel. Gauge holding is key, firm clips perform better than dog sppikes in daggy timbers.
62440
Yes, the drawback with steel sleepers is a lot of extra ballast is required to fill the pods, and tamping is critical. However once that is done, an all steel sleepered track on clean ballast with say 50kg rail CWR makes for an excellent easy to maintain medium capacity track.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I was trying to post something but image posting is just so broken that I give up.

Try posting it and perhaps someone can work out the code and edit it after you put it up.  Ill look at it, as ive had some problems but solved them with images.
james.au

The problem is that the http disappears and link ends up being the text instead. Youtube link works fine but whenever I post an image link it just disappears.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Are you using the link creator in the reply box toolkit (i.e. the blue screen with green plus on it)?  If you are, make sure you delete the pre populated https:// .
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
It's not just concrete, a supplier has given a tourist railway* some plastic sleepers to experiment with.

* I think it's Walhalla, but it might be Daylesford.
I think it was a VicTrack- and/or V/Line-run trial, and there is/was testing done at Daylesford (DSCR), VGR and Walhalla (WGR). Happened a few years ago, I haven't heard anything about the results though.

Throwing something else in the mix, how do steel sleepers (used in NSW extensively in the grain line network) rate? Not as good as full concrete, but I'm assuming better than Timber and TRS?
LancedDendrite
Yes, we are trialling at least one Plastic sleeper at Maldon on the turntable road in the hardest wearing position we could think of; near the pit underneath where they light up the locos. The oil burner dishes out some real punishment to it there!

I believe they are certified for use on some US lines. From an environmental point of view I would think they would be a great solution if you can make them from recycled materials and then they would in themselves be recyclable at end of life providing they resisted oil ingress.

BG
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The plastic sleepers I have seen at Maldon on the VGR seem to be TRS specs and look just like a conventional timber sleeper but these are far more interesting. And of course they are European being recycled and extolling the virtues of their low carbon footprint. Being tested by French railways with a 1km test track according to the webpage.

http://www.lankhorstrail.com/en/rail-sleepers

BG

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.