QUBE locomotive restrictions

 
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I have a question regarding QUBE's GML10:

Whilst GML10 is allowed to travel around VIC, and has been to SA, it is restricted from travelling past Albury. Why is this restriction in place?

Similarly, QUBE's 14 class are not allowed into VIC, Is this for the same reasons?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

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  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
I have a question regarding QUBE's GML10:

Whilst GML10 is allowed to travel around VIC, and has been to SA, it is restricted from travelling past Albury. Why is this restriction in place?

Similarly, QUBE's 14 class are not allowed into VIC, Is this for the same reasons?

Thanks in advance for any responses.
Gman_86
Presumably because they are not accredited in the states they are not permitted in.

And this is why road transport beats rail time and time again. Imagine if Toll or Linfox had to re-accredit (i.e. develop a complex new safety case for) their trucks for every state they travelled in? Once a truck is registered it can go anywhere.

Rail? The old state borders are as impenetrable as ever. Now instead of gauge differences, we have immovable bureaucracies that think the sky will fall in as soon as a loco class that safely works without issue in one state touches the slightest length of rail in another state without completing reams of paperwork, engineering reports, inspections, trials, etc. again - regardless of all that having previously been completed in their originating state.

The current Govt promised to reduce red tape. Yeah right.............
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Thing is that rail vehicles and infrastructure were not built to a national standard like roads were or have been . Check out your motor vehicle , built to comply with ADRs . National accreditation .
You want to compare heavy road vehicles and state legislation look at road trains and where they can and cannot operate .
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Thing is that rail vehicles and infrastructure were not built to a national standard like roads were or have been . Check out your motor vehicle , built to comply with ADRs . National accreditation .
You want to compare heavy road vehicles and state legislation look at road trains and where they can and cannot operate .
BDA
Roads (in Australia) built to a standard? Who knew? Some (few) roads are magnificent, many just passable, others are a disgrace. Many country roads are little more than a couple of wheel tracks.
  Wrigleys Chief Train Controller

I have a question regarding QUBE's GML10:

Whilst GML10 is allowed to travel around VIC, and has been to SA, it is restricted from travelling past Albury. Why is this restriction in place?

Similarly, QUBE's 14 class are not allowed into VIC, Is this for the same reasons?

Thanks in advance for any responses.
Gman_86
GML10 has been to Junee under her own power on several occasions and travelling under a ARTC ToC waiver,

NSW EPA has decreed that the loco is to noisy for the delicate hearing of some in NSW, till modifications are done to the loco it is not allowed to operate in NSW,

The 14 class were never intended to run over the border so accreditation to do so was never applied for.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
NSW EPA has decreed that the loco is to noisy for the delicate hearing of some in NSW, till modifications are done to the loco it is not allowed to operate in NSW,
Wrigleys
NSW EPA? What a clown show! So they are worried that the locos are too noisy? Are they as concerned about the continuous high pitched rail squeal in many areas of the state? Thumping of wheel flats? Roaring trucks with their exhaust brakes? Hooning cars? Harleys? Constant droning thrum from the motorways?

If unapproved locos are too noisy, will they accept responsibility for level crossing incidents when the driver or pedestrian claims (if he/she survives) "I just didn't hear the train"??

At least the EPA in the U.S. is concerned more about emissions (i.e. U.S. now imposing Tier 4) that have genuine respiratory health consequences rather than just pandering to NIMBYs who chose to live next to a railway then are offended by the occasional intermittent sound of a passing train!
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
GML10 has been to Junee under her own power on several occasions and travelling under a ARTC ToC waiver,

NSW EPA has decreed that the loco is to noisy for the delicate hearing of some in NSW, till modifications are done to the loco it is not allowed to operate in NSW,

The 14 class were never intended to run over the border so accreditation to do so was never applied for.
Wrigleys
Thanks that makes some sense. Are any other locos that run freely in Victoria and elsewhere banned from NSW on noise grounds?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
GML10 has been to Junee under her own power on several occasions and travelling under a ARTC ToC waiver,

NSW EPA has decreed that the loco is to noisy for the delicate hearing of some in NSW, till modifications are done to the loco it is not allowed to operate in NSW,

The 14 class were never intended to run over the border so accreditation to do so was never applied for.
Thanks that makes some sense. Are any other locos that run freely in Victoria and elsewhere banned from NSW on noise grounds?
Gman_86
The BK's took ages to get accredited, similarly SCT's CSR class (BK is a copy of the CSR) were only permitted west of Goobang Junction in NSW for quite some time, yet roamed freely in Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia.


Also remember GML10 spent it's early life in the Pilbara before being sold to Comalco at Weipa in Far North Queensland (far away from any EPA officers)
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
The N$W EPA are a joke
  K-Class Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
GML10 has been to Junee under her own power on several occasions and travelling under a ARTC ToC waiver,

NSW EPA has decreed that the loco is to noisy for the delicate hearing of some in NSW, till modifications are done to the loco it is not allowed to operate in NSW,

The 14 class were never intended to run over the border so accreditation to do so was never applied for.
Thanks that makes some sense. Are any other locos that run freely in Victoria and elsewhere banned from NSW on noise grounds?
Gman_86
The 3 QR National/Aurizon 2800 class locos that were converted from NG to SG were planned to be used in coal service but due to being to noisy were banned from use in NSW. This meant that QRN used older nosier locos on this service which were allowed due to the grandfather cause in the legislation. The 2800's were used for a couple of years as bankers between Adelaide and Melbourne in inter-modal service. Eventually these 3 locos had their exhaust systems modified to reduce the noise and are now classified as the 3200 class and used in NSW.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Where can I find the specific noise regulations that are being enforced here?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Where can I find the specific noise regulations that are being enforced here?
james.au
http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/noise/
  a6et Minister for Railways

GML10 has been to Junee under her own power on several occasions and travelling under a ARTC ToC waiver,

NSW EPA has decreed that the loco is to noisy for the delicate hearing of some in NSW, till modifications are done to the loco it is not allowed to operate in NSW,

The 14 class were never intended to run over the border so accreditation to do so was never applied for.
Thanks that makes some sense. Are any other locos that run freely in Victoria and elsewhere banned from NSW on noise grounds?
The 3 QR National/Aurizon 2800 class locos that were converted from NG to SG were planned to be used in coal service but due to being to noisy were banned from use in NSW. This meant that QRN used older nosier locos on this service which were allowed due to the grandfather cause in the legislation. The 2800's were used for a couple of years as bankers between Adelaide and Melbourne in inter-modal service. Eventually these 3 locos had their exhaust systems modified to reduce the noise and are now classified as the 3200 class and used in NSW.
K-Class
I wonder how many of you have sat inside the cab of any of the older GM's such as the 42cl and even the 421class before the latter was fitted with additional sound proofing in the cab? Even then the 421's had a high pitched whine that was very intense after being in the cab for extended times.  It was only late in the piece that the 42's had sound proofing in the main cab and were permitted to run as leading units again.

Like many enginemen who worked on steam and the first generation diesels I have severe industrial deafness requiring high order hearing aids as a result of working on them. Likewise when dynamic braking was removed from the 44cl the increase in the cab noise was quite an amount as the dynamic brake equipment sat behind the electrical cabinet and helped create a sound barrier from the PM when revved up.

That internal noise was very much duplicated on the outside for people to hear and put up with. In the U.S and many other rail systems around the world now, noise abatement is very big issue and modern diesels have to have both external noise limitations as well as in the cabs for very much obvious reasons.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The N$W EPA are a joke
greasyrhys
Why is that? I suggest the joke is on neanderthals like you who are still living in the dark ages. Oh, Sth Australia, you do live in the dark ages.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The locals used to get real upset with 81s doing slow coal drags up Como Bank in the day .
Actually I remember residents arcing up over the compressors starting up on 86s in Loftus Up refuge overnight .
It isn't a trivial issue and is the reason why more current units are fairly quiet eg GT46ACEs 93s NRs .
Cars and trucks are a lot quieter than they used to be , why not locomotives . Not everyone gets a solid drawbar over train noises .
  a6et Minister for Railways

The locals used to get real upset with 81s doing slow coal drags up Como Bank in the day .
Actually I remember residents arcing up over the compressors starting up on 86s in Loftus Up refuge overnight .
It isn't a trivial issue and is the reason why more current units are fairly quiet eg GT46ACEs 93s NRs .
Cars and trucks are a lot quieter than they used to be , why not locomotives . Not everyone gets a solid drawbar over train noises .
BDA
BDA, what many do not understand in all of the noise issue is that its not about hearing a luvly yum yum coming up the hill for some sort of loco sound ecstatic experience, rather about those people who live alongside the rail lines and end up with all kinds of new train types over the years, and the overall pitch of the PM's as well as other factors.

The 81's are a good example, for the crews a nice quiet cab only bettered by the 47cl, a bit cramped in seating though, but the big thing with them was the way they sounded and felt at ground level. When they first came to Werris Creek in numbers I was sitting in Pangela loop and went to get water at the signal box and felt a vibration in the ground thought the start of an earthquake or something, when I commented to the signalman he simply said an 81cl at the front of the down train. The closer it got the greater the vibration and it was felt before you heard it. It was very much a rumbling vibration and very much something you felt through the legs.

When the residents at Tighes Hill and around Waratah station complained about the rumbling and the PM pitches on stationary trains, the issue was found to be that many of the drivers failed to center the reverser and the high idle pitch shook windows of the old homes. Reasons why sound barriers were erected in many areas.  

Other areas of noise can be found not on the loco's but with many of the wagons these days that have a lot more harsh crashing with the couplers as the train is going, not always in the same spot either so hard to blame a track specific issue, it is very much heard up here on the CC with the loco's in full power.

One thing for sure is that I am glad I do not live close to a railway line.  The worst I have ever heard though was at Yeronga around 4 years ago when a QR diesel with a GM motor approached the station heading north. Cannot remember the class/type but from the first hearing of it I thought it must have been close but it took around 5 minutes before it appeared, the sound was incredibly loud, and worse than a 42cl.  It was a low nosed type hood type.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Things have come a long way from when 81s were new , I remember doing steel trains north out of Junee with 12-1400T and a single 81 . 7 1/2 hours to Goulburn with ears ringing .
Couldn't wait to get off the things in Sydney . MS2 I think it was called .
NRs are the quietest things I've been in , can hold a conversation without raising your voice in 8 .
Standards have changed considerably with noise emissions and again this is a good thing .
I'm sure GML10 could be made quiet , not so sure the operator wants to pay for this .
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

.......trucks are a lot quieter than they used to be .......
BDA
Really?

That must be the tooth fairy then doing a tap dance on Hampstead Road (about 300 metres away) that wakes me from my slumbers at 3 in the morning.

Anyway, surely you would be the first to agree that all this excessive noise stuff is just scientific claptrap much like climate change Razz
  Clyde Goodwin Junior Train Controller

Ear protectors are cheap

I live less than 75m off a major highway the only time that Trucks or prime movers annoy me is when they keep the exhaust brake on and yes modern rigs are quite.

You must have very sensitive hearing.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Obviously wasn't a modern truck . I know first hand that they are not allowed to be noisy .
I occasionally steer a current model Isuzu and its very quiet . Very clean burning too .
Climate constantly changes , since the dawn of time anyway .
  M636C Minister for Railways

Ear protectors are cheap

I live less than 75m off a major highway the only time that Trucks or prime movers annoy me is when they keep the exhaust brake on and yes modern rigs are quite.

You must have very sensitive hearing.
Clyde Goodwin
To make Bingley Hall's point, do you normally wear ear protection to bed?

The problem for GML 10 is that there is only one standard for locomotive noise in NSW.
This is tailored to the Hunter Valley where most of the suburbs grew up around the line from Newcastle to Maitland.

This line was converted to four tracks in 1915 to separate the slow, unbraked coal trains from the faster passenger trains.
These days the extra tracks allow 90 wagon trains at up to 15 minute spacing day and night.

The sheer volume of traffic means that the trains have to be quiet.

Since GML 10 was a one off, it didn't historically work in NSW and get rights to operate despite being built before the noise restrictions took effect.

Peter
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
I think the argument shouldn't be that there are improving standards in noise control - more that they are randomly and discriminatingly applied between states and specifically hurting the competitiveness of rail vs. road.



There should be ONE national standard for all environmental aspects of rail vehicles, so ANY loco approved / accredited in ANY state should have that recognised in ANY other state.



It is arguable that a state Govt authority (in this case the NSW EPA) placing arbitrary restrictions on access by another states locomotives is restraint of trade and in violation of the Constitution. The national rail industry need to launch a rail equivalent to Hughes vs. Vale to defeat state restrictions on rail access across the country.



With the continuing development of the national Rail Safety Regulator and the advent of the National Rail Safety Law 2012, state restrictions like that are slowly disappearing, but empire building state bureaucrats still want to make their mark and throw their weight around.
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
I think the argument shouldn't be that there are improving standards in noise control - more that they are randomly and discriminatingly applied between states and specifically hurting the competitiveness of rail vs. road.



There should be ONE national standard for all environmental aspects of rail vehicles, so ANY loco approved / accredited in ANY state should have that recognised in ANY other state.
12CSVT

This is the crux of many issues in Australia, in that a nation of our size and population base, does it still really need "States"? If yes, then state based rules should be compatible nation wide. Same road rules, same education curriculum, same environmental legislation etc.  That said, doesn't exclude the need for localised rules for specific locations/times/events.

Whilst the state based system had an element of use at Federation, it has been waning for some time.

However, the reality is, that the politicians will never give up on that level of political clout! So State based inequity will be here for quite some time to come!

Laughing
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I think the argument shouldn't be that there are improving standards in noise control - more that they are randomly and discriminatingly applied between states and specifically hurting the competitiveness of rail vs. road.



There should be ONE national standard for all environmental aspects of rail vehicles, so ANY loco approved / accredited in ANY state should have that recognised in ANY other state.

This is the crux of many issues in Australia, in that a nation of our size and population base, does it still really need "States"? If yes, then state based rules should be compatible nation wide. Same road rules, same education curriculum, same environmental legislation etc.  That said, doesn't exclude the need for localised rules for specific locations/times/events.

Whilst the state based system had an element of use at Federation, it has been waning for some time.

However, the reality is, that the politicians will never give up on that level of political clout! So State based inequity will be here for quite some time to come!

Laughing
SA_trains
No, some of the states have rail lines that run through densely populated areas whilst other less so. So it is logical that sound pollution laws may vary from state to state. We are banging on about one life expired loco only. The owners must have known that they faced problems gaining accreditation in NSW. As another poster noted maybe the owners do not think the loco is worth the cost of making it NSW compliant. Anyhow, why should the rules be changed for just one old loco purchased on the cheap?

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