RRL quadruplication - a query for those in the know

 
  Toby Esterhase Station Master

I understand that the Regional Rail Link between Deer Park West and Werribee West Junctions was built with its eventual quadruplication in mind. (Indeed, Infrastructure Victoria's recently released 30-year strategy calls for it.) I recall reading here that the road-over-rail bridges were built so that the space for two additional tracks can easily be 'punched through' the embankments. There's also that large gap between the station building and the current up platform at Tarneit station: if you demolish the current up platform and rebuild it right next to the station building, you can fit two additional tracks in the newly-created gap.
What I can't work out for the life of me is where those two additional tracks will fit through Wyndham Vale station. Does anyone know? Or is there no 'passive provision' for quadruplication through Wyndham Vale at all? (Which sounds to me like a dreadful cock-up.)
Before you answer, I know that the cutting is much wider right at the station - but I understand that that's to accommodate the terminating platform(s) for the eventual extension of the Werribee Line. What I can't see at Wyndham Vale or in the cutting either side of it is how you can fit all of:
- the two current RRL tracks;
- two additional RRL tracks; and
- two Werribee Line extension tracks (which I presume are to continue north of the station to the massive electric train depot slated for north of Ballan Road).

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I understand that the Regional Rail Link between Deer Park West and Werribee West Junctions was built with its eventual quadruplication in mind. (Indeed, Infrastructure Victoria's recently released 30-year strategy calls for it.) I recall reading here that the road-over-rail bridges were built so that the space for two additional tracks can easily be 'punched through' the embankments. There's also that large gap between the station building and the current up platform at Tarneit station: if you demolish the current up platform and rebuild it right next to the station building, you can fit two additional tracks in the newly-created gap.
What I can't work out for the life of me is where those two additional tracks will fit through Wyndham Vale station. Does anyone know? Or is there no 'passive provision' for quadruplication through Wyndham Vale at all? (Which sounds to me like a dreadful cock-up.)
Before you answer, I know that the cutting is much wider right at the station - but I understand that that's to accommodate the terminating platform(s) for the eventual extension of the Werribee Line. What I can't see at Wyndham Vale or in the cutting either side of it is how you can fit all of:
- the two current RRL tracks;
- two additional RRL tracks; and
- two Werribee Line extension tracks (which I presume are to continue north of the station to the massive electric train depot slated for north of Ballan Road).
Toby Esterhase
Only 2 RRL tracks (as of now) and 2 Suburban tracks (with heaps of stations) are planed between Deer Park and Wyndham Vale.
But all a long way off.

Some talk of a new direct high speed route between Manor and Southern Cross Station (for a 35 minute run between Melbourne and Geelong) but exact plans are unclear !
  SamTheMan79 Chief Train Controller

Location: Geelong
Quadding of the track from West Werribee to Laverton, all Werribee services to run via duplicated Altona, quadding from Altona junction to Newport then tunnel under the Yarra through Fisherman's Bend then connecting into Metro 2. Many, many years away however.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The original plans for the 'bells and whistles' RRL had quadding of the track from Sunshine to Wyndham Vale, with a flyover near Robinsons Road, however as we know the funding was cut and we now have RRL lite.

V/Line was never the intended primary operator to Tarneit and it's planned to become METRO train operated at a future time with the tracks looping back to Werribee on the downside of Wyndham Vale.
This is the reason the level crossing at Werribee Street North needs to be grade separated even though the crossing is currently only used by SG services and in case of emergencies and stoppages on the RRL.

Mike.
  Toby Esterhase Station Master

Understand all of that but none of it quite answers my query. Assuming the road-over-rail bridges and Tarneit station are built to allow for quadding (and the reservation generally is wide enough for it) why is Wyndham Vale station apparently not?
As I tried to explain, is there room for six - not four - tracks (two original RRL, two additional RRL and two Werribee Line extension) through Wyndham Vale station? Or do the two additional RRL tracks become the two Werribee Line extension tracks at Wyndham Vale station? If so, where is there the room to terminate Metro trains on them?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I don't know where the additional RRL tracks Idea comes from between Deer Park and Manor ?
No point of having more than 2 RRL tracks along that route !

Wyndham Vale station has the provision for 2 extra platforms for suburban trains (on the East side)
  gomer Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
From the original plans that I remember is that the suburban lines from Werribee will terminate at Wyndamvale with two platforms to be built. The main reason there is no room now except at the station and under the bridges is the rock is extremely hard and the excavation was extremely expensive. Just to the North of the station will be a 32 road storage and maintenance facility for Metro trains. From Wyndamvale to Deer Park junction there is room for only 3 tracks under the bridges allowing for a local freight line to be built if required. Ceva is a large freight company which has conveniently set up shop right beside the line with many more company's to come.   There is also dual gauge near the GEB sidings at Sunshine so I believe this will run through 4 plat then separate after Anderson road and run beside the line towards Tarniet thus making it 5 lines from Sunshine to Deer Park Junction. 2 RRL 2 Suburban and 1 S/G. From the GEB it will run to Brooklyn and connect with the existing standard gauge.
  TOQ-1 Chief Train Controller

Location: Power Trainger
My understanding is that the spans of the bridges were all four tracks wide, with the end of the support ramps being just a facade that can be knocked out to widen it. Of course, I probably read that here so it could very well be wrong and I'm happy to be corrected if it is.

With extra stations to be build at Truganina, Sayers Road and Davis Road, more tracks would be useful to separate stoppers from Express trains. Otherwise, unless the next generation rolling stock has some incredibly fantastic accelerating speeds, times to Geelong will blow out like crazy.
  gomer Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
You may be right, but at the moment there is 2 tracks and an access road between the concrete abutments.
The original plans for Wyndamvale had 6 tracks. 2 Metro platforms. 2 V/line platforms with 2 express roads in between allowing for express services. It will become congested no doubt but when they get enough rolling stock you could have your express services followed closely by the stopper. The turn back at Wyndamvale has a 80k set of points out of the siding and signalling permits those trains to get to the platform quicker.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Road overpasses at

Western Freeway
Boundary Road
Dohertys Road
Derrimut Road
Tarneit Road
Davis Road
Leakes Road

Have enough room for 3 tracks with vertical concrete retaining both sides

Ballan Road
Manor Lakes Boulevard

Have enough room for 4 tracks with vertical concrete retaining both sides

Greens Road
Black Forest

Have enough room for at lest 4 tracks with vertical concrete retaining on the West side and a slopping loose rock wall on the East side
  SamTheMan79 Chief Train Controller

Location: Geelong
Quadding of the track from West Werribee to Laverton, all Werribee services to run via duplicated Altona, quadding from Altona junction to Newport then tunnel under the Yarra through Fisherman's Bend then connecting into Metro 2. Many, many years away however.
Don't you mean some Werribee service run via Altona and the rest Express. Also Wyndham Vale is where you would depart the services so it connect with Geelong services.

But honestly Quadding between West Werribee and Laverton isn't needed either the Altona line terminates at Laverton or could terminate in the heart of Point Cooke by tunnelling between Williams landing and Point Cooke shopping centre. That would get make Williams landing station not clog up the trains. Its really busy because of Point Cooke.

Metro 2 I fully support it but only happen after metro 1 complete. So its 30 years away at least.
James974
No I don't mean some Werribee service run via Altona and the rest Express. The Geelong line would not run via the RRL, it would go back to the original alignment so quadding would be required between West Werribee and Laverton.

It's all about additional capacity for the western suburbs and faster more direct services for Geelong/Warrnambool.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Quadding of the track from West Werribee to Laverton, all Werribee services to run via duplicated Altona, quadding from Altona junction to Newport then tunnel under the Yarra through Fisherman's Bend then connecting into Metro 2. Many, many years away however.
SamTheMan79

This is an interesting concept.  Would you remove the Laverton to Newport expresses?
  SamTheMan79 Chief Train Controller

Location: Geelong
Quadding of the track from West Werribee to Laverton, all Werribee services to run via duplicated Altona, quadding from Altona junction to Newport then tunnel under the Yarra through Fisherman's Bend then connecting into Metro 2. Many, many years away however.

This is an interesting concept.  Would you remove the Laverton to Newport expresses?
bevans
Correct.

From memory the difference in running time is around 8 minutes.
  SamTheMan79 Chief Train Controller

Location: Geelong
No I don't mean some Werribee service run via Altona and the rest Express. The Geelong line would not run via the RRL, it would go back to the original alignment so quadding would be required between West Werribee and Laverton.
It's all about additional capacity for the western suburbs and faster more direct services for Geelong/Warrnambool.
-----------
So you want to put vline trains back to the Werribee line just after we spent billions to run them via RRL. Honestly if this was suggested before RRL construction make a whole lot of sense. If you want to run the vline via Werribee quadding will happen which is great but duplication on Altona is not possible without property acquisition. And you need metro 2 to happen as well. And also you have to run Werribee services to Tarniet and Wyndham vale on RRL which is not ideal.
The Geelong services via RRL are not a problem except for delays when converges at the Ballarat line, but with good timetabling and a cheap flyover that problem is solved.
Geelong line will be electrified in the future and be part of the metropolatian train system. This is because it will be cheaper to run metro trains there when frequencies are less than every 20 minutes. It more a capacity issue not about speed, running more trains will increase capacity.
James974
Dare I mention it- duplicated Skyrail for the Altona Loop would be a solution as a part of level crossing removal works.

Electrify all of RRL and run Tarniet as a part of the Melton line, Wyndham Vale as a part of the Werribee line.



Tell us commuters from Geelong that our services are not a problem when every timetable change running times are extended by one of two minutes. Yes, the Deer Park junction is a bottleneck but so is the North Melbourne flyover during peak. Speed has been reduced and effective use of platform 15/16 is still not happening! All this adds up.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
When you really think about this plan and I love it, Geelong services need to be around 30 min frequencies for most of the day and if we had electrification we could run via tarneit or via Newport timetabling on both paths.  We really need to think about running some services which do not need to transit the city area.  For example, Electrify Geelong and South Geelong etc. running Geelong->Tarneit(allowing Newport interchange via West Werribee)->Deer Park(interchange)->Sunshine(interchange with services to the north east via Albion).

There is the ability to interchange with geelong services via Newport and Tarneit in my view.

E.g.: Newport to Geelong (change) to Ballarat to Maryborough (not needing to head back into the city.

Thoughts?
  SamTheMan79 Chief Train Controller

Location: Geelong
When you really think about this plan and I love it, Geelong services need to be around 30 min frequencies for most of the day and if we had electrification we could run via tarneit or via Newport timetabling on both paths.  We really need to think about running some services which do not need to transit the city area.  For example, Electrify Geelong and South Geelong etc. running Geelong->Tarneit(allowing Newport interchange via West Werribee)->Deer Park(interchange)->Sunshine(interchange with services to the north east via Albion).

There is the ability to interchange with geelong services via Newport and Tarneit in my view.

E.g.: Newport to Geelong (change) to Ballarat to Maryborough (not needing to head back into the city.

Thoughts?
bevans

We need to think outside the box like this (Electrification with multiple paths and not to be so centrally centric) otherwise we'll be in the same position with Geelong/outer west that we are in now beyond the south eastern suburbs.
  gb274 Beginner

Quadding of the track from West Werribee to Laverton, all Werribee services to run via duplicated Altona, quadding from Altona junction to Newport then tunnel under the Yarra through Fisherman's Bend then connecting into Metro 2. Many, many years away however.

This is an interesting concept.  Would you remove the Laverton to Newport expresses?
Correct.

From memory the difference in running time is around 8 minutes.
SamTheMan79
I would remove the Altona loop before forcing Werribee trains through there. The patronage there does not justify diversion of any full trains, or any frequency above 20 minutes.

Rather in your scenario, I would direct all Werribee trains into Metro 2, with Williamstown/Altona feeding into the existing Newport-Footscray line into the city
  x31 Assistant Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Keep Altona loop but main line trains do not use it therefore no lift in frequency and therefore no need to remove level crossings.
  BrentonGolding Chief Train Controller

Location: Kollingwued when I'm workin', Maldon when I'm Trainin'
Tell us commuters from Geelong that our services are not a problem when every timetable change running times are extended by one of two minutes. Yes, the Deer Park junction is a bottleneck but so is the North Melbourne flyover during peak. Speed has been reduced and effective use of platform 15/16 is still not happening! All this adds up.
SamTheMan79
The 15/16 thing is interesting. As I have posted before many Bendigo services are using 15/16 whereas it was always my understanding that it was for Geelong services as well as Gippsland. Makes me wonder if it is because of the quicker 7 minute run to Footscray when getting to Albion on time is so critical to avoid the Sparks for the Bendigo trains. (This doesn't work anyway, we always get stuck behind them somewhere).

I got the 12.14 Down Epsom today which departed from 15B. As I came down the escalator I noticed there were a couple of 3 Car Velo sets close together but not coupled. As I got closer I noticed that they had sandwich boards on the platform which I have not seen before with brand spanking new Purple Corflute insert signs saying Bendigo and Traralgon, one for each train.

The funny thing was that these were placed near the gap between the 2 trains which was at the base of the escalators at the Bourke St end. If you came from the main Collins St entrance as I did it was useless and many Bendigo pax got on the Traralgon train before they realized and hopped off again.

BG

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