3801 Boiler and it's return to operation

 
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Latest Roundhouse seems to have positive news about repair of 3801's boiler (tab 3819).
studdo
Make sure that you don't tell anyone what that news is.

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  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Latest Roundhouse seems to have positive news about repair of 3801's boiler (tab 3819).
Make sure that you don't tell anyone what that news is.
YM-Mundrabilla
If you want to know what the news is join RTM and read Roundhouse.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Latest Roundhouse seems to have positive news about repair of 3801's boiler (tab 3819).
Make sure that you don't tell anyone what that news is.
If you want to know what the news is join RTM and read Roundhouse.
nswtrains
One of the quickest ways of torpedoing a project is to be secretive about it, most people will correctly get suspicious and give no help or funds towards said project. Now I have nothing against NSW or the 38 class just saying how the world really works.

woodford
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
If you want to know what the news is join RTM and read Roundhouse.
nswtrains
In your haste to condemn, has it occurred to you that he may (a) live in another State; (b) be fairly heavily committed already; (c) enjoy sharing knowledge ?
In my innocence, I thought (c) was one of the functions of these forums.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Mod note:

Have edited 2 posts, removing a personal insult.

edit: another post edited as well. Don't attack others please !
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The new term 'fake news' comes to mind.

Why is it that so many here seem to be so paranoid and secretive about 3801 especially as so much of the boiler 'restoration' is publically funded by the taxpayer?
  M636C Minister for Railways

The new term 'fake news' comes to mind.

Why is it that so many here seem to be so paranoid and secretive about 3801 especially as so much of the boiler 'restoration' is publically funded by the taxpayer?
YM-Mundrabilla
It isn't just on the forum...

The boiler is being repaired in Goulburn.

I'm assured by Leon Oberg, who lives not far from the workshop concerned, that the repair contract places a ban on the publication of any information and particularly any photographs during the actual repair work. Leon has taken photos of the boiler arriving and outside the workshop, but even if he can see and or photograph progress from public property, he should not publish this.

This is sounding a bit like the book "1984" (or dare I say it, the Trump Administration...)

Peter
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Are we repairing a locomotive boiler or a top secret guided missile?
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

Are we repairing a locomotive boiler or a top secret guided missile?
Valvegear
Given the unfortunate recent history of 38 class boilers and the Goulburn firm's obvious feeling that their practices amount to valuable intellectual property the secrecy is understandable, although in my opinion unnecessary.
For some reason powers that be seem to have a paranoid fear of the photograph, that in that image is all the knowledge from what brand of toilet paper they use to the finest detail of knowledge needed to convert a riveted boiler into a welded one. The only other reason could be that they want no evidence to exist in case a mistake is made, but I'm sure this could not be the case?

Reading preceding posts the design of 38 class boilers came from the NSWGR's design office. Back then the NSWGR were a pre-eminent authority on mechanical engineering and loco boilers in particular. They had their own Standards and methods which later Standards embodied. It is possible that a boiler designed today to meet all the relevant Standards now in force might include details that are to a lesser quality than those on the original boiler.
I think the attitude we should take is that having the locomotives back in service is the main goal, and those making this possible are to be encouraged and applauded, the issue of secrecy, annoying as it is, is a minor matter.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
M636C wrote; I'm assured by Leon Oberg, who lives not far from the workshop concerned, that the repair contract places a ban on the publication of any information and particularly any photographs during the actual repair work.

Petan asks; Did Leon Oberg say if the photo ban come with the contract from the government, ie the government placed the photo ban in the contract or was the photo ban at the request of the Goulburn repair company?

The following is public knowledge already    
https://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/single-post/2016/10/24/Firebox-gets-removed-from-locomotive-3801
  BigBrother Beginner

Are we repairing a locomotive boiler or a top secret guided missile?
Given the unfortunate recent history of 38 class boilers and the Goulburn firm's obvious feeling that their practices amount to valuable intellectual property the secrecy is understandable, although in my opinion unnecessary.
For some reason powers that be seem to have a paranoid fear of the photograph, that in that image is all the knowledge from what brand of toilet paper they use to the finest detail of knowledge needed to convert a riveted boiler into a welded one. The only other reason could be that they want no evidence to exist in case a mistake is made, but I'm sure this could not be the case?

Reading preceding posts the design of 38 class boilers came from the NSWGR's design office. Back then the NSWGR were a pre-eminent authority on mechanical engineering and loco boilers in particular. They had their own Standards and methods which later Standards embodied. It is possible that a boiler designed today to meet all the relevant Standards now in force might include details that are to a lesser quality than those on the original boiler.
I think the attitude we should take is that having the locomotives back in service is the main goal, and those making this possible are to be encouraged and applauded, the issue of secrecy, annoying as it is, is a minor matter.
neillfarmer
"The only other reason could be that they want no evidence to exist in case a mistake is made"

Your very misinformed my friend. The overhaul team is made up of the most competent people still alive, i can assure you it is in good hands and the evidence certainly does exist, its simply not public knowledge. The secrecy is necessary in order to help control rumors and the Chinese whispers and negativity from many people who believe they are entitled to know the ins and outs of a sheep's bum that flood the rail heritage industry. The people who need to know, know, have a little faith, and let the people in the know do what has to be done to get the loco back into service. I suggest we all simply keep an eye on the official updates from THNSW's 3801 page or in roundhouse. Speculation will not achieve anything. We all want to see this loco returned to service, lets not make it harder for the people involved.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Are we repairing a locomotive boiler or a top secret guided missile?
Given the unfortunate recent history of 38 class boilers and the Goulburn firm's obvious feeling that their practices amount to valuable intellectual property the secrecy is understandable, although in my opinion unnecessary.
For some reason powers that be seem to have a paranoid fear of the photograph, that in that image is all the knowledge from what brand of toilet paper they use to the finest detail of knowledge needed to convert a riveted boiler into a welded one. The only other reason could be that they want no evidence to exist in case a mistake is made, but I'm sure this could not be the case?

Reading preceding posts the design of 38 class boilers came from the NSWGR's design office. Back then the NSWGR were a pre-eminent authority on mechanical engineering and loco boilers in particular. They had their own Standards and methods which later Standards embodied. It is possible that a boiler designed today to meet all the relevant Standards now in force might include details that are to a lesser quality than those on the original boiler.
I think the attitude we should take is that having the locomotives back in service is the main goal, and those making this possible are to be encouraged and applauded, the issue of secrecy, annoying as it is, is a minor matter.
neillfarmer
My understanding is that the secrecy was imposed on the boiler repairer by the contract and not requested by them.

Peter
  Clyde Goodwin Junior Train Controller

The new term 'fake news' comes to mind.

Why is it that so many here seem to be so paranoid and secretive about 3801 especially as so much of the boiler 'restoration' is publically funded by the taxpayer?
It isn't just on the forum...

The boiler is being repaired in Goulburn.

I'm assured by Leon Oberg, who lives not far from the workshop concerned, that the repair contract places a ban on the publication of any information and particularly any photographs during the actual repair work. Leon has taken photos of the boiler arriving and outside the workshop, but even if he can see and or photograph progress from public property, he should not publish this.

This is sounding a bit like the book "1984" (or dare I say it, the Trump Administration...)

Peter

So ALL the photos of the Inner firebox being removed in the workshops yard at Goulburn that were published by THNSW and shown across many Facebook groups do not exist then
M636C
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Your very misinformed my friend. The overhaul team is made up of the most competent people still alive, i can assure you it is in good hands and the evidence certainly does exist, its simply not public knowledge. The secrecy is necessary in order to help control rumors and the Chinese whispers and negativity from many people who believe they are entitled to know the ins and outs of a sheep's bum that flood the rail heritage industry.
"BigBrother"
That the job is in good hands I do not doubt for one moment - this company has an excellent reputation.
However, on the subject of rumours, I believe that the case is completely the opposite to what you say. Rumours begin simply because people don't know what's happening. I don't want to know the ins and outs; I will wait until the job's finished because I have no choice. However, (a) there's a lot of public money involved; (b) good public relations would put out a short bulletin every so often to keep interested people informed, so helping to quell rumours.
  BigBrother Beginner

Your very misinformed my friend. The overhaul team is made up of the most competent people still alive, i can assure you it is in good hands and the evidence certainly does exist, its simply not public knowledge. The secrecy is necessary in order to help control rumors and the Chinese whispers and negativity from many people who believe they are entitled to know the ins and outs of a sheep's bum that flood the rail heritage industry.
That the job is in good hands I do not doubt for one moment - this company has an excellent reputation.
However, on the subject of rumours, I believe that the case is completely the opposite to what you say. Rumours begin simply because people don't know what's happening. I don't want to know the ins and outs; I will wait until the job's finished because I have no choice. However, (a) there's a lot of public money involved; (b) good public relations would put out a short bulletin every so often to keep interested people informed, so helping to quell rumours.
Valvegear

As soon as people are told the details you begin to have armchair experts questioning and attacking what is or isn't done and why, the individual in front of their computer always seems to know better, when in truth they are attacking the very people who are simply trying to do a job for the benefit of the rail heritage industry. It destroys morale, it takes a toll on the volunteers and throws a major spanner in the works for the entire overhaul process, regardless of it being 3801 or any other loco. There is a lot of public money involved, and that is the very reason why THNSW provides updates on the project through their website and in roundhouse. When there is something to tell, I'm sure they will publicize it as its bound to be a big year for this loco. For all of us on the outside to demand to know more is simply being a hindrance to the project, and creating rumors instead of waiting to hear the facts is damaging to the workers that are fighting hard for the outcome we all want to see. If people are so insistent on knowing whats going on, why not approach THNSW and request to volunteer on the project?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
True in many ways about the armchair experts and the volunteer morale.
Some of us, however, are interested in the 'engineering' and technical aspects of the project rather than just the spin and the self-serving drivel dished out by illiterate morons in government for the 'edification' of the idiots they perceive the population at large to be. Sad

No one seems to provide detailed information/description/write-ups (whatever these days). Is this because they are scared some shonky lawyer will get hold of it and twist it into something that it is not and was never intended to be.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

True in many ways about the armchair experts and the volunteer morale.
Some of us, however, are interested in the 'engineering' and technical aspects of the project rather than just the spin and the self-serving drivel dished out by illiterate morons in government for the 'edification' of the idiots they perceive the population at large to be. Sad

No one seems to provide detailed information/description/write-ups (whatever these days). Is this because they are scared some shonky lawyer will get hold of it and twist it into something that it is not and was never intended to be.
YM-Mundrabilla
The reports in Roundhouse are written by the Project Manager of the restoration - Craig Mackey. They provide very full technical detail of what is being done, how this relates to NSWGR practice and what is being done.

They are hardly self serving drivel. There are photos showing a great deal of the work on the boiler including removal of the inner firebox. A very full and detailed report, welll worth the read.

Craig W
  M636C Minister for Railways

So ALL the photos of the Inner firebox being removed in the workshops yard at Goulburn that were published by THNSW and shown across many Facebook groups do not exist then...
Clyde Goodwin

Have you seen any photographs by anyone else?
As the organisation that wrote the contract presumably THNSW  had a clause that allowed them to take photos.

Quite apart from the fact that dismantling isn't technically repair work and the photos were outside the workshop itself.

Any photos of a new inner firebox being put in place?

I myself have never been to the factory in question.

Peter
  ssaunders Train Controller

Your very misinformed my friend. The overhaul team is made up of the most competent people still alive, i can assure you it is in good hands and the evidence certainly does exist, its simply not public knowledge. The secrecy is necessary in order to help control rumors and the Chinese whispers and negativity from many people who believe they are entitled to know the ins and outs of a sheep's bum that flood the rail heritage industry.
That the job is in good hands I do not doubt for one moment - this company has an excellent reputation.
However, on the subject of rumours, I believe that the case is completely the opposite to what you say. Rumours begin simply because people don't know what's happening. I don't want to know the ins and outs; I will wait until the job's finished because I have no choice. However, (a) there's a lot of public money involved; (b) good public relations would put out a short bulletin every so often to keep interested people informed, so helping to quell rumours.
Valvegear

The company as you say.....https://insolvencynotices.asic.gov.au/browsesearch-notices/notice-details/Ainsworth-Engineering-Group-Pty-Ltd-093865028/86a3fec6-0f3c-4036-a41e-2b4892b5e881

Has some commercial history.
  ssaunders Train Controller

True in many ways about the armchair experts and the volunteer morale.
Some of us, however, are interested in the 'engineering' and technical aspects of the project rather than just the spin and the self-serving drivel dished out by illiterate morons in government for the 'edification' of the idiots they perceive the population at large to be. Sad

No one seems to provide detailed information/description/write-ups (whatever these days). Is this because they are scared some shonky lawyer will get hold of it and twist it into something that it is not and was never intended to be.
The reports in Roundhouse are written by the Project Manager of the restoration - Craig Mackey. They provide very full technical detail of what is being done, how this relates to NSWGR practice and what is being done.

They are hardly self serving drivel. There are photos showing a great deal of the work on the boiler including removal of the inner firebox. A very full and detailed report, welll worth the read.

Craig W
CraigW
A report 10 years in the making...

All, I certainly want the loco back in service, don't get me wrong.

But they are using public money and it deserves to be probed.
  ssaunders Train Controller

M636C wrote; I'm assured by Leon Oberg, who lives not far from the workshop concerned, that the repair contract places a ban on the publication of any information and particularly any photographs during the actual repair work.

Petan asks; Did Leon Oberg say if the photo ban come with the contract from the government, ie the government placed the photo ban in the contract or was the photo ban at the request of the Goulburn repair company?

The following is public knowledge already    
https://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/single-post/2016/10/24/Firebox-gets-removed-from-locomotive-3801
petan

While Mr LO has been a railfan and local jurno for years, that doesn't mean his assurances are fact. Without the written evidence it is just hearsay.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
For all of us on the outside to demand to know more is simply being a hindrance to the project, and creating rumors instead of waiting to hear the facts is damaging to the workers that are fighting hard for the outcome we all want to see.
BigBrother
You and I agree on this point - nobody has the right to demand anything. I used to be the secretary of a preservation group, and the number of armchair experts and their demands was amazing. Some told me straight that they were "entitled to know." How they reached that conclusion escapes me.
On a more amusing note was one rumour monger. He rang me, and gleefully said, " I hear rumours that (loco) has failed its roadworthy exam." He was not amused  when I congratulated him on being a genuine fortune teller, because the roadworthy was scheduled for the following Wednesday.

If people are so insistent on knowing whats going on, why not approach THNSW and request to volunteer on the project?
BigBrother
Difficult if you're a Mexican as I am.
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

A report 10 years in the making...

All, I certainly want the loco back in service, don't get me wrong.

But they are using public money and it deserves to be probed.
ssaunders
Actually no.

The report is about 2 months in the making as the work was done in November or December last year - and is still a work in progress. Roundhouse and the THNSW site have had updates as and when things have progressed.

The work that is being undertaken is the rebuilding of the boiler fitted to 3801 - tab 3819.

Do you really expect that there will be an article anywhere that outlines exactly what did or did not go wrong with building a new boiler in Germany? Maybe, someday there will.

But in the meantime, I would expect that the updates in Roundhouse or the website will detail what is happening to the boiler that is being rebuilt.

Craig W
  M636C Minister for Railways


While Mr LO has been a railfan and local jurno for years, that doesn't mean his assurances are fact. Without the written evidence it is just hearsay.
ssaunders

While Leon certainly makes mistakes, he did write up earlier steam locomotives repaired at that factory in "Track and Signal" and "Railway Herald", including Peter Neve's narrow gauge locomotive.

He may have been misinformed, but I don't think he made it all up about the restrictions.

So far it appears that THNSW are controlling any information being made public.

Whether that is a good idea depends on your point of view, taking into account the history of the German boiler.

Peter
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

I have just received my January 17 copy of Roundhouse. It contains nearly 6 pages of text and 16 photographs of the boiler repair. It is a fairly comprehensive report on the progress and decisions made in relation to this work. Of interest is the decision to revert to a riveted firebox so the boiler, when complete, will be 'like new'. I think in the light of this information, and that contained in the previous issue, the comments made in relation to secrecy of the boiler overhaul would have to be described as inaccurate.
Also in the same issue are reports on progress of several other steam loco repair works. All in some detail and with photographs.
I think the Transport Heritage NSW have done as well as is possible with keeping members aware of what is happening.

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