Rear assist Bathurst to Lithgow ???

 
Topic moved from General by dthead on 12 Feb 2017 22:47
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
Just under 10 years constantly working into the yard with two operators.

We could go on for hours about how the yard can be a nightmare or a breeze. Where is the best place to sleep in the shunt ute. What Kellogs or Orica is producing from the smell. How to occupy time waiting at the gate...

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  ssaunders Train Controller

Having a rear loco certainly will save John Holland a motza on track wear and tear if it's used correctly to save 'drag'.

Wonder if SSR are getting an access fee reduction to do it.

ss
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Is the bank engine crewed? Or operated remotely?
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
Is the bank engine crewed? Or operated remotely?
james.au
According to the article in Railway Digest (see my post on previous page) the banker is crewed
  Throughwestmail Train Controller


The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.
nswtrains
What about the empty cars of a morning out of the up yard at Mt Victoria , onto Platform 1 and then through 11 points onto the down and then to Lithgow. The banker coming off 8148 is a regular occurrence, detaching from the train in the platform and then back across to the down L/E to Lithgow. You must have spoken to the staff member who had only been there for 1 day, as it has happened a number of times recently and the empty cars happens every morning Monday to Friday. If you only do the 0600 shift you would not see it, try doing 1800.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner


The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson. I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic. No one who works there has seen such an operation.

I am sure that if it did occur, it would be such an unusual move that a number of the usual photographers would be up there to capture the movement.What about the empty cars of a morning out of the up yard at Mt Victoria , onto Platform 1 and then through 11 points onto the down and then to Lithgow. The banker coming off 8148 is a regular occurrence, detaching from the train in the platform and then back across to the down L/E to Lithgow. You must have spoken to the staff member who had only been there for 1 day, as it has happened a number of times recently and the empty cars happens every morning Monday to Friday. If you only do the 0600 shift you would not see it, try doing 1800.
Throughwestmail
Have done the 1800 shift on many occasions at Mt Vic and never seen it. So why hasn't the movement been photographed? I will ask about the empty car movement. Was at Mt Vic Saturday evening.
  tom9876543 Train Controller

FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf
awsgc24

I had a look at the curve and gradient diagram.
There are multiple sections between Brewongle  and Wambool where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/67).
There are multiple sections between Tarana and Rydal where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/59).
There is a short section between Cox's river and Marrangaroo Tunnel, where adjusted gradient is 1/67.
Between Penrith and Kingswood the gradient is 1/66.

What impact do these section have on the ruling grade?
Would anyone know what is the maximum grade a 6000 ton train can climb (without a banker engine)?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Have done the 1800 shift on many occasions at Mt Vic and never seen it. So why hasn't the movement been photographed? I will ask about the empty car movement. Was at Mt Vic Saturday evening.
nswtrains

The movement is normally timetabled too occur at around midnight three days a week. I'm buggered if I'm going out at that hour of night to photograph a yellow box.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson.

I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic.

It may help to view this diagram of Mt Victoria : http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2764.pdf

There appears to be 25 double slip to go from Up to Down, but no signals, unless you use a flagman.

However, it doesn't make sense that 25 points has three ends, 25A, 25B and 25C, while 26 has only one end.

Looking through the ARHS DVD on Track and Signal Diagram v3 (T&SV3) the double slips on the main lines including 25, were only single slips as recently as 1981, which suggests that sa-trackandsignal.net is wrong, and that there is no move from the Up Main to Platform 2.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Well the thread certainly dídn't go the way I expected it to in my OP.

But so far it's been smegging hilarious.

Thanks Razz
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
Well the thread certainly dídn't go the way I expected it to in my OP.

But so far it's been smegging hilarious.

Thanks Razz
bingley hall
Yes but this is Railpage.
Somebody will google a topic in decades and a reference to Railpage will turn up. Then it's up to them to sort through the people who add to debates with factual information and the ones who just want to voice their opinions in every possible topic, wording them as "facts".
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Mt Victoria is included in this track plan from Transport for NSW Train Operating Conditions (TOC) Manual – Track Diagrams Version 8.0 Issued date: 19 December 2016  (40MB)
http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/asa/asa-standards/ts-toc-3.pdf
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.
Trainplanner
Is the train ECP braked or air braked, please?
  M636C Minister for Railways

I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.
Is the train ECP braked or air braked, please?
YM-Mundrabilla
My understanding is that the only ECP braked train on that section is the Centennial coal train. I think the Centennial wagons are fitted for both ECP and conventional braking. While the FIE locomotives on the Fletchers train would have an ECP compatible brake system, The G class would not. So I don't think the Fletchers train uses ECP braking.

Peter
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I'm still surprised at 6,000 tonnes that the banker is not being used to assist with additional dynamic braking for the run down the mountain given the length of the grade, and the fact that it is a busy ish passenger corridor with extensive residential development etc.  I hate to bring out the "safety" card here and that's not my intention.  I just imagined Sysney Trains may have adopted a cautious approach.

Certainly there is a weight restriction on trains descending the Adelaide Hills from Mt Lofty that has been in place for years.    Having a locomotive at the rear assisting as I say was/is common practice in North America.

Just curious.   Clearly the existing arrangement works and has been signed off.
Is the train ECP braked or air braked, please?
My understanding is that the only ECP braked train on that section is the Centennial coal train. I think the Centennial wagons are fitted for both ECP and conventional braking. While the FIE locomotives on the Fletchers train would have an ECP compatible brake system, The G class would not. So I don't think the Fletchers train uses ECP braking.

Peter
M636C
Thanks Peter.
It would be a shame if the G class bank engine was all that was stopping the rest of the train from ECP braking but this does not appear to be the case.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Going by that Diagram of Mt Victoria Yard, the only changes I can see is the removal of the Dead End siding (Rat Hole) on the Sydney end of the DOWN platform and the Ground frame operated TRAILING crossover from the Down Main into that siding.
I think this arrangement was to allow a shunting move from the long gone Oil depot located there.
Despite this siding being short, a Down Goods was often pushed into it to allow a Lithgow bound DOWN passenger to bypass it via the UP MAIN returning to the DOWN via the crossover (Slip or Compound) near the signal gantry.
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson.

I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic.

It may help to view this diagram of Mt Victoria : http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2764.pdf

There appears to be 25 double slip to go from Up to Down, but no signals, unless you use a flagman.

However, it doesn't make sense that 25 points has three ends, 25A, 25B and 25C, while 26 has only one end.

Looking through the ARHS DVD on Track and Signal Diagram v3 (T&SV3) the double slips on the main lines including 25, were only single slips as recently as 1981, which suggests that sa-trackandsignal.net is wrong, and that there is no move from the Up Main to Platform 2.
awsgc24
The movement previously described is from Platform 1 to the Down Main, not the other way, although under yard working a train can be brought out of the yard onto Plat 2 unsignalled or even taken through 41 points at the Sydney end onto the down main. Why make guesses if you have not worked the Box at Mt Victoria?
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf

I had a look at the curve and gradient diagram.
There are multiple sections between Brewongle  and Wambool where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/67).
There are multiple sections between Tarana and Rydal where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/59).
There is a short section between Cox's river and Marrangaroo Tunnel, where adjusted gradient is 1/67.
Between Penrith and Kingswood the gradient is 1/66.

What impact do these section have on the ruling grade?
Would anyone know what is the maximum grade a 6000 ton train can climb (without a banker engine)?
tom9876543

The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
FYI, except for Raglan Bank ( 1 in 50) and Zig Zag Bank (1 in 42) the ruling grade between Bathurst and Bell in the up direction is 1 in 75.

See: http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/railcorp/Curve_and_Gradient_Diagrams_V2-0_b.pdf

I had a look at the curve and gradient diagram.
There are multiple sections between Brewongle  and Wambool where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/67).
There are multiple sections between Tarana and Rydal where the adjusted gradient is less than 1/75 (worst is 1/59).
There is a short section between Cox's river and Marrangaroo Tunnel, where adjusted gradient is 1/67.
Between Penrith and Kingswood the gradient is 1/66.

What impact do these section have on the ruling grade?
Would anyone know what is the maximum grade a 6000 ton train can climb (without a banker engine)?

The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.
awsgc24
Did the program make allowances for the curvature of the track? I have been told the tight curves on the Adelaide hills line make an 1800m train several hundred tonnes "heavier" because of the increased frictional forces.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Did the program make allowances for the curvature of the track? I have been told the tight curves on the Adelaide hills line make an 1800m train several hundred tonnes "heavier" because of the increased frictional forces.
seb2351
The answer is No.

MTRAIN only knows about the speed limits of each section of track, which tends to reduce when the curves sharpen, but not increased friction.

A fuller simulation presumably requires more data, and a bigger computer.

It is not known if there is a more up-to-date version of MTRAIN.

There is also a second factor affecting trains on curves, in addition to increased friction as mentioned above.

Since bogie rolling stock "cuts the corner" on the straight line between the front and back bogies, rather than the arc of the curve itself, that train appears to be longer than it actually is on straight track. The difference between the front and back of the train increases, which increases the notional gradient.

The worst curves in the Adelaide Hills are 200m (10 chains) which is about the same as the worst mainline curves in NSW. CMIIAW.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Mt Victoria is in this track plan (page 50) from Transport for NSW Train Operating Conditions (TOC) Manual – Track Diagrams Version 8.0 Issued date: 19 December 2016  (40MB)
http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/asa/asa-standards/ts-toc-3.pdf - shows single slips.
petan

Mt Victoria : http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2764.pdf  - shows double slips.

The above two diagrams of Mt Victoria disagree about the double/single slips, 25&26 and 11&8.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The only turn back operation I am aware at Mt Victoria is the daily rail clean operation where a V set moves a few hundred metres west of Mt Vic on the down and then reverses to the up and continues on to Lawson.

I do not think it is possible to move from the up to the down at Mt Vic.

It may help to view this diagram of Mt Victoria : http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/Sydney/RC2764.pdf

There appears to be 25 double slip to go from Up to Down, but no signals, unless you use a flagman.

However, it doesn't make sense that 25 points has three ends, 25A, 25B and 25C, while 26 has only one end.

Looking through the ARHS DVD on Track and Signal Diagram v3 (T&SV3) the double slips on the main lines including 25, were only single slips as recently as 1981, which suggests that sa-trackandsignal.net is wrong, and that there is no move from the Up Main to Platform 2.
The movement previously described is from Platform 1 to the Down Main, not the other way, although under yard working a train can be brought out of the yard onto Plat 2 unsignalled or even taken through 41 points at the Sydney end onto the down main. Why make guesses if you have not worked the Box at Mt Victoria?
Throughwestmail
I owe you an apology. Checked the SWTT today and indeed a V set does commence from Mt Vic yard and ends up at Lithgow becoming W512. W702 Mt Vic Yard 0312, Mt Vic 0315, W503 to Lithgow, W512 to Central. No one I asked is sure of the logic of such a movement. But there you go.
  tom9876543 Train Controller


The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.
awsgc24

Thank you for the info, MTRAIN seems to be critical for freight train operators.

It would be nice if someone knew the ruling grade for a 6000 ton train.
I would like a simple ruling grade. That is, imagining a 50km long straight track that is constantly at the ruling grade, the train will be able to make it without stalling. No complicated computer software required.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

The effective grade depends on the average gradient over the length of a train. It helps that trains are getting longer these days.

This is easier to calculate if all wagons are loaded to the same weight, which may not be the case.

The railways have an ancient FORTRAN computer program called MTRAIN which simulates the operation of trains over varying grades, and the simulated train will stall if the load is too heavy for the steep grades. This program assumes that the waggons are evenly loaded, which is obviously not the case.

The old and badly designed Stanwell Park Tunnel, on the ruling 1 in 40 grade, had a station stop at the Tunnel entrance.

Some sections can be surmounted if the train enters the steep section at speed, which makes this a "Momentum Grade".

Kingswood Bank would be a momentum grade, and heavy freight trains may be held at say the Up Accept to ensure a clear sun for the steep grade ahead.
Thank you for the info, MTRAIN seems to be critical for freight train operators.

It would be nice if someone knew the ruling grade for a 6000 ton train.
I would like a simple ruling grade. That is, imagining a 50km long straight track that is constantly at the ruling grade, the train will be able to make it without stalling. No complicated computer software required.
tom9876543
Ruling grade is going to be determined by a combination of drawgear and loco power. If your drawgear can handle it, doesn't matter if you only have a baby T class by its lonesome hauling it up the hill.

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