Topic moved from General by dthead on 10 Oct 2016 21:40
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Four in stations for 15 minutes while three are northbound in tunnels

Four in stations for 15 minutes while three are southbound in tunnels

A train would therefore leave each end every 15 minutes

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  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Don't think that'll work with single tubes between stations. Best I can see is three trains max giving an hourly service. For a train leaving Sydney, you can't have anything in the opposite direction before Albury, which the train from Sydney will cross at Canberra. Happy to be proved wrong here Eddy old lad, but this seven train piped ream doesn't hold the cards up from what I can see without passing loops midway between stations and at stations. Get your big boffin Queensland engineer mate to give it the old Aussie once over. Has the Japanese PM answered? If not, try again with the classic Dear Sir salutation, these fellas can be quite the sticklers for protocol.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

250 kilometers at 1,000kph = 15 minutes
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Look at it this way. A train leaves Melbourne at 8 a.m. just as a train from Sydney arrives. That train left Sydney at 6.45. The train from Melbourne will arrive in Sydney at 9.15, just as another is leaving for Melbourne. With 15 a minute headway,  that means our 8 a.m. Melbourne to Sydney service must cross trains leaving Sydney at 7.00, 7.15, 7.30, 7.45, 8.00, 8.15, 8.30, 8.45 and 9.00. That's  nine trains to cross and you've got two loops, at Canberra and Albury. See the problem. KABOOM at 2000 km/h, which is 1000 x 2.
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Good(ish)  Cool news for your project! You can use six trains to give a twice hourly service from Sydney and Melbourne but it will be unbalanced; you'd have trains leaving on the hour and a quarter past, so alternate gaps of 15 then 45 minutes between services.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

You have got me doubting myself here Billy
I look at it like AC current with northbound in stations while southbound are in tunnels and vice versa.
A train leaving Melbourne at 6.15 would wait at Albury and Canberra for 15 minutes each station to allow the southbound trains the use of the tunnels arriving in Sydney at 7.30
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Think about what happens when a train reaches a terminus. It can't just turn around and go back because there'll be a train at Canberra or Albury waiting to leave in the opposing direction. I'll whack up a graphic representing of how to use six trains, but I'm pretty sure that's the maximum and it gives two services per hour, with alternate headway of 15 then 45 minster,  not regular 30 min departures.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

That is why you need seven trains so there is one ready to leave in the same direction as the Albury and Canberra trains allowing a 15 minute frequency either end.
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
I think there'll be fairy floss farms on Mars before this Magtube thing exists, but..... you can't get 15 minute frequency all day in both directions unless you have passing tubes at stations AND in between stations. Here's another way to think about it. Each of your single tube sections (between each station) takes 15 minutes for the canister to get through. So in one hour each of those sections can handle a maximum of four services (4 x 15 = 60). four services, one hour, for BOTH directions, that's a two services per hour for each direction. Another way to think about it; any service, if there are regular headways, will cross opposing services at intervals equal to half of the headway; so services every 15 minutes in both directions mean there'll be a cross on average every 7.5 minutes, and it takes 15 minutes to get through the tube.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

If it only takes 15 minutes each tunnel why would you need passing loops in them
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
If it only takes 15 minutes each tunnel why would you need passing loops in them
eddyb
Your understanding of timetabling and train stock pathing seems to be limited !

A single section with 15 minute journey time, wanted to be used for even two way traffic, the maximum frequency would be a train every 30 mins plus a bit of grace time, say 32 mins.
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Because when a train leaves, let's say, Albury, for Canberra, it will occupy the tunnel for 15 minutes. 15 minutes later it will arrive in Canberra. With 15 minute headways the next service will then be ready to leave Albury for Canberra. No space for any Canberra to Albury service. Same for each of the inter city sections. As long as you have 15 minute headways in one direction there is no space for services in the other direction.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Get some paper and write down where all the trains will be at a certain time then write down where they would be 15 minutes later
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Get some paper and write down where all the trains will be at a certain time then write down where they would be 15 minutes later
eddyb
Yes head on collision half way between each section !
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zRJXDUXQ-ImAIAh8TRShL1lzgTXzUGdDEGYs7ZsD5Ew/edit?usp=sharing

S = Sydney, SC = Sydney - Canberra section C = Canberra and so on. Each canister is alloted a number, A to F = 6 canisters. Letters in box indicates service occupying section for that time. Yellow boxes are northbound services. Note that the single tube sections are constantly occupied. This gives you maximum two services each direction per hour with 15 then 45 minute gaps between each  service.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Yes of coarse I am wrong
Struck me at 2.19 am
It must be half hour frequency
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Billy I tried to respond to your PM but it said your inbox is full.

Anyhow


Originally I had designed the Melbourne and Sydney stations with a single track and platforms both sides for fast off/on but as all trains will have 15 minutes for off/on there can be a track either side of a central platform.


This in turn allows four trains engaging in off/on at stations while three are in the tunnels.


The schedule could be northbound 8.00am, 8.30am, 9.00am, 9.30am, etc. with southbound 8.15am, 8.45am, 9.15am etc.


Even though frequency would be half hour, because of the 5.6m wide carriages allowing 10 seats per row each train would take 2,000 passengers in comfort.


The problem is there are 25% want maglev, 50% want HSR and 25% want to just use more planes on that route but if most people want Maglev then it would happen.


Regards Eddy
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Nothing in the inbox, shouldn't be a problem. For the timetable; have you considered having a 'hop-scotch' style stopping pattern where services only stop at Canberra OR Albury? This would save a valuable 15 minutes per service and the only disadvantage would be no Canberra - Albury service, which can be done by a comfortable modern bus for those who insist on travelling between these two places. Express services would cross stopping services at the station. Try and jig something up timetable wise, I reckon it just might work, and the 15 minutes stopping time saved, plus that not needed to slow down or speed up, I reckon the service could slip in just under the psychological important 1 hour barrier. Tell us more about the comfort factor on these services. I saw that you want a central aisle with 5 seats either side, and that businesspassengers who wanted to go to the toilet could just 'hold it' to the next stop. I think platforms either side of the vehicle would be better, with exit doors on each side beside each row of seats. Maybe fit SkyRider seats as well? Then you wouldn't even need an aisle and could fit twelve per row and reduce pitch to 50cm. Have a trailer on the back where people can put bikes, suitcases, skis, golf clubs or any other crop they want to bring along.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

As emergency exits are either end of the train it must have at least one central aisle big enough for a wheelchair.


You would be right in alternately skipping Albury and Canberra to get under that magical one hour but I imagine many people would be only going Sydney or Melbourne to Canberra and having a regular frequency would be somehow better for them.


I am thinking about starting a Magtube site on the internet with a Magtube train on Google 3d and this may have luggage racks above the centre aisle as there is no need for overhead wiring and also more space for bikes, electric scooters and toilets even if it needs an extra carriage to maintain capacity.


Regarding a platform either side we must remember that stations would probably be underground and that segmental linings would continue through them with only inner doors on the carriages lining up with outer doors on the segmental lining when the train is in any station with a 10m wide platform between them.


This could be done without any pillars to support the roof but any wider you would have to use them and as the train would be sitting there 15 minutes there would be ample time for people to exit or board.


Unless people here and on other boards can agree on the best way forward I see nothing ever being done either to Magtube or the existing Sydney/Melbourne track when really both need doing.


A rather radical thought to do both at the same time over a ten year period is for us to build some sort of long bridge for the existing rail so the subgrade could be stabilised and track lowered to allow clearance below bridges at the same time as trains could slowly pass over it.
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
With alternate stopping pattern Canberra and Albury would still have regular service to Sydney and Melbourne, just once an hour instead of every half hour, and there'd be no service between them. I think this is plenty for anybody who choses to mive in those places, especially Albury, the capital of Iceland. Better to try to cram the train with Intercapital passengers anyway to get more money and pay the Japs back quickly.

You're right about the centre aisle for disabled passengers and mid tunnel emergency incidents. I think the side doors could be included anyway as loading and unloading would be much quicker and only two passengers out of ten would be more than one seat from an exit.

Why not make the train longer and skinnier? This would allow quicker evacuation and make the tunnel cheaper and quicker to build.

Any answers to the emails? Send again I reckon. Have you sent one to HRH Prince Charles yet? He'd be interested for sure. He'll be looking for something to get himself in the news and up his poularity now that his mum's getting on and people are sick of his girlfriend.

The site is a good idea, get it up on the internet as sson as possible is my advice. With all the changes and whatnot in your description of this idea I don't know what the hell is happening or what you're banging on about half the time, so something visual, with lots of charts and graphs explaining financing and technical issues, would be great.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Thanks Billy for the pm but with Albury only 15 minutes from Melbourne it would be worth a half hour frequency I think

There is no need for speed at stations as the train would be there 15 minutes.

I had thought of smaller trains and tunnels but they would not be much cheaper and unacceptable to the public
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Billy
I took your advise as nothing much seemed to be happening but I did it by snail mail to the prime minister

The swiss voted for the base tunnel so perhaps we could do the same with a plebiscite that could save money by having a vote on gay marriage at the same time

Whatever the outcome the government could say that is what the majority want and we are a democracy
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
How is this plebiscite going to work? Will people have to vote Yes (or No) to Gay Marriage and Magtube as a lot, or will they be able to vote Yes for one and No for the other? If Referendum rules apply then there's a big problem; the famous Triple Majority is required so you need a majority in four states. As there's no DIRECT benefit for any state other than NSW and VIC from Magtube, in fact no direct benefit for anywhere other than the four cities serviced, a national referendum will almost certainly be lost. There's also a risk that, by piggybacking Magtube onto Gay Marriage, the large minority that oppose Gay Marriage may boycott Magtube.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

It would have to be two totally seperate votes done at the same time to save money and a the result would be accepted regardless.

Although only three states would mainly benifit the others would  by lifting the Australian economy with less on tbe dole building Magtube

Regarding the marriage vote the gay people should frame the question and whatever the result is should be accepted
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The opponents of gay marriage would be deliriously happy to see it voted on at the same time as a magtube. Fortunately for the supporters of gay marriage, previous instances of multiple referenda running on the same day (a few times as multiple referenda plus a federal election!) have had separate ballot papers for each question.

A plebiscite is basically a glorified opinion poll used by cowardly politicians to try and appease a noisy minority when they don't have the balls to simply say no. As a plebiscite in Australia has no legal status, it does not necessarily lead to anything real happening even if it accidentally results in a 'yes' vote and so the government can set whatever rules they like - the 1977 plebiscite on the national anthem had a preferential vote with four options, territorians were able to vote* and there was no double majority required.

What magtube needs is not a plebiscite (it doesn't have a noisy minority) or referendum (it doesn't have a confident majority supporting it), but a referral - to the nearest psychiatric unit.

* this was ironically changed by one of the four constitutional referenda put to the voters on the same day as the plebiscite, but the results of the ACT in referenda since then would suggest this was a mistake.

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