3000 Railcar Historical Relics

 
  62430 Chief Train Controller

Location: Metro Adelaide
The recent discussion of the leasing of the 3000/3100 railcars reminded me that I had recently seen leasing plates.  Yesterday I ventured out on a search and found such plates in 3107 and 3108.  Looking through my photo collection I also came across a photo taken in Nov 2015 from which I've extracted the Clyde builder's plate in 3114.







I'm not sure if such plates still survive in other railcars.  I must keep my eyes open.

Alex C

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  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
Interesting, so far I have not seen the leasing/serial number plates on any other 3000/3100 besides 3107 & 3108.
  Heath Loxton Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
Shhh. Smile
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Shhh. Smile
Heath Loxton
And why should they Shhh, if they are there they are there for a reason so what matter does it make pointing them out though. It is not like the commuters will riot or something over it by seeing them!  Rolling Eyes
  M636C Minister for Railways

While not related to the leasing of the 3000 class, some years ago I was taking photos around the Grand Junction Road overbridge and the then SCT depot, and it was convenient to cross the tracks rather than find my way back to the bridge. Anyway on the ballast I saw a small rectangular plate which I picked up.

It was a builder's plate for a 3000/3100 bogie. It indicated that they had been built by the Public Transport Commission of Victoria in their Ballarat Workshops under licence to Linke Hoffmann Busch. Similar bogies were built for the later Melbourne Comeng trains. It would be good to get a photo of such a plate still on a 3000/3100 bogie.

Peter
  clearof Beginner

Speaking of these machines some of which will have their propulsion systems replaced in the near future to have their lives extended.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Speaking of these machines some of which will have their propulsion systems replaced in the near future to have their lives extended.
clearof
Maybe and maybe not anything older than 5 minutes here of late is deemed past it's use by date. Well so the local commuters write about them anyway when writing into the Sadvertiser and complaining about them.Rolling EyesLaughing
  Heath Loxton Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
I wonder when the 3000 class rail cars will become historical relics themselves? Razz
  cmjl Station Master

Location: Adelaide
I wonder when the 3000 class rail cars will become historical relics themselves? Razz
Heath Loxton
The redhens had a 40 year service life, the 2000's had a 35 year service life and the first of the 3000's went into service 30 years ago - so not long to go now until they could be considered relics compared to the age of other units.

Does anyone "in the know" know what sort of service life the 3000's were intended to have?  What's the spare parts situation for them - are they commonly available so that the units can be kept mechanically reliable for much longer?
  62430 Chief Train Controller

Location: Metro Adelaide
I wonder when the 3000 class rail cars will become historical relics themselves? Razz
The redhens had a 40 year service life, the 2000's had a 35 year service life and the first of the 3000's went into service 30 years ago - so not long to go now until they could be considered relics compared to the age of other units.

Does anyone "in the know" know what sort of service life the 3000's were intended to have?  What's the spare parts situation for them - are they commonly available so that the units can be kept mechanically reliable for much longer?
cmjl
Two observations. All units were given an interior refurbishment in the last 5 years.  All 70 cars are still in service and I am not aware of any cars out of service for a prolonged period.
  VolvoB59 Beginner

I am fairly sure that many of the Jumbo's went through refurbishment within 5 years of them being sent to the scrap yard.  Back in the 90's too, many of the Red Hens were repainted and new flooring installed etc etc and yet by decades end they were gone.  So there is history in this department.  Previous statement is correct, within 5 years the 3000/3100's will start to be withdrawn.
  62430 Chief Train Controller

Location: Metro Adelaide
I am fairly sure that many of the Jumbo's went through refurbishment within 5 years of them being sent to the scrap yard.  Back in the 90's too, many of the Red Hens were repainted and new flooring installed etc etc and yet by decades end they were gone.  So there is history in this department.  Previous statement is correct, within 5 years the 3000/3100's will start to be withdrawn.
VolvoB59
What allowed the Red Hens and the Jumbos to be withdrawn was the procurement of the respective replacement classes the 3000/3100's and the 4000's.  At the present time there hasn't been any talk yet of procuring replacement units for the DEMUs.  The obvious replacement strategy would be further electrification of the network. Until then the existing diesel lines will require the entire fleet of 3000/3100s with 64 of the 70 railcars being diagrammed on weekday peaks.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
If/when the Gawler electrification takes place they will need an additional 22-25 4000's on that line displacing the 3000's currently in service on that line - it's anyone's guess as to what would happen to them but having a much more modern propulsion system than the Jumbos there might actually be a market for them interstate (specifically V/line Victoria), especially given they are already the correct (broad) gauge. You would imagine that the 3000's would probably be useful on short-haul frequent stop runs like Seymour, Bacchus Marsh or Stony Point. Not sure if they'd be compatible with loading and clearance gauges in Victoria though?

However, given Jay Weatherill has decided to spend $500 million or so on Australia's biggest battery and Australia's newest gas plant I would imagine that the Gawler electrification will be delayed yet again...
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
If/when the Gawler electrification takes place they will need an additional 22-25 4000's on that line displacing the 3000's currently in service on that line - it's anyone's guess as to what would happen to them but having a much more modern propulsion system than the Jumbos there might actually be a market for them interstate (specifically V/line Victoria), especially given they are already the correct (broad) gauge. You would imagine that the 3000's would probably be useful on short-haul frequent stop runs like Seymour, Bacchus Marsh or Stony Point. Not sure if they'd be compatible with loading and clearance gauges in Victoria though?

However, given Jay Weatherill has decided to spend $500 million or so on Australia's biggest battery and Australia's newest gas plant I would imagine that the Gawler electrification will be delayed yet again...
don_dunstan
By the time Gawler is sparked, the 3000's will not find too many wiling takers and I'd dare say the decision to spark the remainder of the network will be driven by the aging 3000's condition.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of Gawler electrification is deliberately timed to come just before the next set of DEMU life extensions would be coming up. The cars in the best condition would get the life extension work and the rest would get sold to whoever wants them - almost certainly for scrap if they would need work done to extend their working life.

This is exactly the strategy used by Eurostar with their original TGV-TMST sets which entered service around the same time as the second tranche of Adelaide DEMUs. The best sets are going through the life extension program and staying in service alongside the new build Velaro e320 EMUs, the rest are being broken up.


Edit to add: the reason I suggest another round of life extension work will happen is that the market for new build DMU/DEMU vehicles in 2025 years will be very different to what it is now, and the political will won't be there to simply close the Belair line. Hence the tough decision will be kicked down the road for someone else to deal with.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree

Question, what is issue wirh Belair line over electrification?
  cmjl Station Master

Location: Adelaide
Agree

Question, what is issue wirh Belair line over electrification?
RTT_Rules
Not sure of this, but there could be several factors.

1 - the Belair line does not have a high volume of patrons compared to the Gawler and Seaford lines so maybe not economical to convert?
2 - could there be issues with running overhead alongside the ARTC freight line?

I do believe that when the second Shepherd's Hill tunnel was dug in the 1920's or so it was done as a taller tunnel to allow for electrification.

I expect that the 3000's will one day only be found on the Belair line, where they will be relegated until their eventual death.  Then they truly will be relics!
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Agree

Question, what is issue wirh Belair line over electrification?
RTT_Rules
ARTC asked AdMet not to do it because they eventually want double-stack container trains on the route; although they have physically separate routes on the line anyway because of the gauge difference.

The 3000's are eminently service-able well into the future, they have an excellent stainless shell and there's no reason why they can't keep going as is for decades or be refitted with newer power plants at some point.
  Heath Loxton Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
I am sick of the 3000 class. Smile
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The 3000/3100 class are the finest rail vehicles we've ever had in SA, and it would make sense to keep using them so long as they remain structurally sound and replacement components are readily available. It's a good thing that they are so reliable that certain rail enthusiasts think they are boring!

There's a quite simple solution to the problem of the ARTC line and the metro line sharing the single-bore Sleeps Hill Tunnel - don't electrify the tunnels. Instead, use a Stadler FLIRT with an electric-battery traction package (Stadler have this in pre-production now, should be a mature product by 2020, let alone ~2025 when we next need to think about ordering EMUs) so there's no need to close the Adelaide-Melbourne route for a lengthy period to lower the tunnel floors. If ARTC have objections to running double stack trains right next to an electrified line outside of the tunnels then they could pay for the cuttings/embankments to be widened to allow for wider track separation. Then we would see if they really mean it.

With the lighter weight and better ride that results from the use of an articulated design with Jacobs Bogies, a FLIRT would be more ideal for the next EMU order we place in Adelaide anyway. A uniform fleet of the electric-battery option for the next order would be useful for other reasons, service resilience (drive trains to a suitable stopping point when the power cuts out) and for extending services on short branches (e.g. Woodville to Grange, Gawler to Gawler Central) without installation of extra electrical infrastructure.

I understand that there would be some objection to ordering Stadler stock from people who want to keep awarding free kicks to Bombardier at Dandenong for substandard products (I still haven't had a reply to my FOI demand for information on the tenders submitted for what became the A-City order, not even heavily redacted documents) but I'm sure that Stadler would be open to ordering components from suppliers in Adelaide and/or doing assembly and interior fitout work here.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree

Question, what is issue wirh Belair line over electrification?
ARTC asked AdMet not to do it because they eventually want double-stack container trains on the route; although they have physically separate routes on the line anyway because of the gauge difference.

The 3000's are eminently service-able well into the future, they have an excellent stainless shell and there's no reason why they can't keep going as is for decades or be refitted with newer power plants at some point.
don_dunstan
Not sure of this, but there could be several factors. 1 - the Belair line does not have a high volume of patrons compared to the Gawler and Seaford lines so maybe not economical to convert? 2 - could there be issues with running overhead alongside the ARTC freight line? I do believe that when the second Shepherd's Hill tunnel was dug in the 1920's or so it was done as a taller tunnel to allow for electrification. I expect that the 3000's will one day only be found on the Belair line, where they will be relegated until their eventual death. Then they truly will be relics!
cmji
Thanks guys, I also tried to look it up and so far I can only find lower patronage numbers as being an issue.

The SG and BG lines no longer have a flat junction so the existence of the SG with or without DS should have nothing to do with it and not sure why ARTC would object?

If the tunnel heights are good to go, not that this is a major road block as Sydney has dealt with this in the past then no issue here.

So far it would only appear to be patronage but at some point you will do it regardless because its the last of the network to be done and the DMU's need to be retired and the costs and benefits of running a single fleet far exceed stuffing around with a few DMU's to service a single line noting 1/4 of the line is common with the southern line anyway.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: On a freight train to crazy town
Agree

Question, what is issue wirh Belair line over electrification?
ARTC asked AdMet not to do it because they eventually want double-stack container trains on the route; although they have physically separate routes on the line anyway because of the gauge difference.
don_dunstan

Another great urban myth of our time?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Another great urban myth of our time?
bingley hall
Agree. ARTC don't have a problem with double stack trains running alongside a 25kV passenger line in the outer suburbs of Perth and haven't objected to the plans for doing so between Islington and Salisbury.

The only issue with the Belair line is that politicians don't want to pay for it, and they make up excuses rather than owning their decisions either.

If the will exists to do it, it will get done. As I've said already, there are a number of different options for dealing with the challenge of the single bore tunnel shared with the ARTC line which won't require closing both lines for a lengthy period.
  Lt. Commander Data Station Master

Location: Stobie Poll City (Adelaide).
Surely there is a fire risk associated with having an electric train system though a high-bushfire risk zone?

While on the topic of Adelaide Hills rail, back in the late 50s/early 60s there was a proposed rail link from Adelaide to Murray Bridge, with a long tunnel following the (current) freeway alignment. 39miles with a 45minute, electric train trip. Unfortunately the federal government wouldn't co-fund it, and it was dumped in favour of the freeway. Source: Section 5: Rail Proposal for the Adelaide Hills
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: Rubber Tyred Vehicle track design office
The whole issue with the Belair Line is that the tunnel under Shepherds Hill Road for the BG purportedly does not have the clearance for 25kV

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