Modelling the Indian Pacific

 
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
As an aside from the recent Auscision announcement...

I'm interested in the operations of the IP since inception.
I'm only aware of the locos used out of Sydney, I'd be interested to know what locos where used in SA/WA and what era they operated, carriage consists, car carriers, general operations (refuelling, layovers, etc) for the past and present.

Any photos aswell would be great?

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  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Pacific

Surprisingly good article on wikipedia.

If memory serves right from Broken Hill to Kalgoorlie AN used CLs and GMs and WAGR used the Ls to Perth. Someone else should be able to shed more light....
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

As an aside from the recent Auscision announcement...

I'm interested in the operations of the IP since inception.
I'm only aware of the locos used out of Sydney, I'd be interested to know what locos where used in SA/WA and what era they operated, carriage consists, car carriers, general operations (refuelling, layovers, etc) for the past and present.

Any photos aswell would be great?
Just The Tip
The book titled Indian Pacific by Peter Attenborough which is available mail order from the ARHS Bookshop at about $20 is your best bet.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
You just beat me to it, kingfisher - I would also recommend that book.
  M636C Minister for Railways

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Pacific

Surprisingly good article on wikipedia.

If memory serves right from Broken Hill to Kalgoorlie AN used CLs and GMs and WAGR used the Ls to Perth. Someone else should be able to shed more light....
GT46C-ACe
We might as well cover the whole run...

Out of Sydney to Lithgow the train originally had two 46 class.
These were supposed to be from 4601-4604 which all had the buffers removed on the Sydney end in order to couple to the train. One assumes that the one coupled to the train had to be turned in Lithgow to work the up service.

Later, of course, 86 class were used.

From Lithgow to Broken Hill two 44 class were used (although there was only one on my train at Broken Hill in 1975).
Again, these were replaced by double 80 class up to the adaption of the CLP class (1994?)

The South Australian railways worked the train to Port Pirie, often with a 600 and an 830, but sometimes just a 600. In 1970, the 600s were red and silver and the 830s were yellow and maroon. (The later ANR era photo on the Auscision site shows the colours reversed - there were only ever one or two red and silver 830s). Later 700 class would have been used, in red and silver.

From Port Pirie to Kalgoorlie two GM class back to back were usual. One or both of these were often GM1 class since the freight trains were getting too heavy for the four motor units. I have seen the train with a single CL class. The first train had CL1 and two GMs.

In Western Australia a single L class was used. However, by 1975 the track had been damaged by the Koolyanobbing-Kwinana iron ore trains. Thus double GMs, often one four motor and one six motor, worked through to Perth. By 1978, single or double K class were sometimes used since these, like the GMs were lighter than the L class and could keep time while doing less damage to the track. From Avon Yard to Perth, it was only the westbound track that had been damaged by the loaded ore trains.

AN tried to run back to back green and yellow GM-1 class from Adelaide to Sydney but these were unsuitable for the Blue Mountains and the idea went away. But there are a few photos around to prove they tried

From 1994, double CLP class worked the train (until privatisation) from Sydney to Adelaide and back, with a single CLP west of Adelaide.

After GSR took over, NR class were used. I think I saw the first westbound train (possibly a Ghan and not an IP) run through Glenbrook on Boxing Day 1997(?). We were all amazed that it seemed to be climbing faster than the twin CLPs had.

The Ghan ran for some time under GSR control with the faded yellow stripe and GSR decals covering the AN lettering.

As I've said in the other thread, Auscision aren't making any sitting cars.

In the early days, two NSW cars, often an SDS and an RDH (so one RUB car and one HUB car) were coupled ahead of the leading van for sitting passengers as far as Broken Hill, and later to Port Pirie (I think) but I don't think NSW cars ran through to Adelaide. By that time standard gauge D cars (or G cars) might have been available. I'm pretty sure D cars with their original numbers ran on SG for a while.

Auscision aren't even offering a pair of RUB set cars as sitting cars (not yet anyway)...

Peter
  2LaGrange Train Controller

Missed a few locos. Seen photos of DL and EL class leading west of Broken Hill on a fairly regular basis for some time in the early 90s.
Also double 45 class west of Lithgow and even seen double 421 class but this only lasted for a vey short time they were allocated on a trial basis to the west. 85 class electrics also.

Basically any loco could be drafted into duty to help when a loco failed.

Certainly the most common locos were 46/85/86 class electrics east of Lithgow. 44/80 class west of Lithgow and then GM/CL/L class. CLP and NR
  G Train Locomotive Driver

For further information on carriage consists, try Comrails excellent website at:
http://www.comrails.com/cr_carriages/sda00100.html

Regarding locomotives, I'd echo M636C and 2LaGrange's comments. Virtually any combination of mainline locomotives worked the train along the length of its journey. The more interesting of which most likely occurring due to an engine failure or rostered locomotive unavailability.

Some interesting ones (not necessarily regularly rostered) I have read about or seen pictures of include:
45/GM/GM in NSW
44/44/44 in NSW
930/GM in SA in the mid 80's (east of Adelaide)
44/700 in NSW
44/442 in NSW
80/442 in NSW
49/421 west of Parkes in NSW initially in 1970
45/421 east of Parkes in NSW initially in 1970
600/600 in maroon & silver in SA (east of Port Pirie)

There's a good article on the use of 421's generally on the West (Bathurst Depot) in early 1970 in Diesel Locomotives on the NSWGR - Volume 2 by Mick Morahan. This covered the commencement of East-West Standard Gauge working, including rostering for the Indian Pacific until the 421's were relocated back to the South due to their rough riding.

EL class locomotives were designed for passenger and fast light freight work and were used on the Indian Pacific in the early 1990's. DL class locos were also used on this train in the lead. DL's have been used as bankers behind NR class locos since the 2000's too.

I do not know for certain whether some BL class locos worked the train after being transferred to standard gauge (SG) during the 80's and have not seen AL class work that train, however, I think they may have worked the Ghan. At least early on or for the Ghan's first SG run. AN's too I am not sure of.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in the Commonwealth Railways / AN can add more information for SA to WA loco rosterings.

Interestingly, most of the locomotives that have hauled the Indian Pacific have been produced in HO. So, there's no shortage of variety to haul your train.

Regards,
  M636C Minister for Railways


There's a good article on the use of 421's generally on the West (Bathurst Depot) in early 1970 in Diesel Locomotives on the NSWGR - Volume 2 by Mick Morahan. This covered the commencement of East-West Standard Gauge working, including rostering for the Indian Pacific until the 421's were relocated back to the South due to their rough riding.

EL class locomotives were designed for passenger and fast light freight work and were used on the Indian Pacific in the early 1990's. DL class locos were also used on this train in the lead. DL's have been used as bankers behind NR class locos since the 2000's too.

I do not know for certain whether some BL class locos worked the train after being transferred to standard gauge (SG) during the 80's and have not seen AL class work that train, however, I think they may have worked the Ghan. At least early on or for the Ghan's first SG run. AN's too I am not sure of.
G Train
I made a trip to Adelaide on the standard gauge before the Indian Pacific was introduced, in January 1970. I caught the Silver City Comet to Broken Hill and an ore train (riding in guard's van) with two 600 class to Port Pirie. I remember crossing an up freight at Menindee hauled by a 421 class No 2 end leading. The wreckage of the inaugural SG freight train of 3 January (which had been diverted through Melbourne but derailed in SA on its return to Sydney) was still visible.

AL18 definitely worked the first SG train to Alice Springs, but I can't recall if this was a Ghan or a special.

I have seen ELs and DLs on the IP and Ghan, including an EL trailing a CLP in 1993.

The BLs were mainly on the BG until the conversion of Melbourne-Adelaide to SG in 1995. By this time CLPs were being used. Those on the SG were probably working TAR freights.

Peter
  denis500 Locomotive Driver

Hi,

In the late 1990's I travelled on the Ghan from The Alice to Adelaide. Due to a loco failure a DL was added as the lead loco so after being late into Tarcoola we were early into Adelaide. Can't remember what the original loco(s) were.

I have a slide(s) that I took in the mid to late 1970's somewhere west of Yunta of the IP heading west which had a 600 in mustard pot on the point.

Cheers
Denis
  Tallstreak Locomotive Driver

Location: Adelaide
Hi all,

A very informative thread, thanks to the author for starting it.

I have a couple of Auscision AN class in AN green and yellow livery and was hoping these locos hauled the Indian Pacific at some stage.  I am thinking I will get one of the Auscision carriage sets but was wondering if anyone could confirm if AN's ever hauled the Indian Pacific?

Cheers, John.Rolling Eyes
  M636C Minister for Railways

Hi all,

A very informative thread, thanks to the author for starting it.

I have a couple of Auscision AN class in AN green and yellow livery and was hoping these locos hauled the Indian Pacific at some stage.  I am thinking I will get one of the Auscision carriage sets but was wondering if anyone could confirm if AN's ever hauled the Indian Pacific?

Cheers, John.Rolling Eyes
Tallstreak
I don't think so.

They were introduced in 1992 and the ELs were already in service.
The ELs were lighter and faster and less powerful, much more suitable for passenger trains.
The CLPs were introduced in 1993 with the intention of removing power vans (and more importantly, the travelling electrician that accompanied them) and took over all passenger trains, even the Overland after 1995.
I never saw an AN on any passenger train. At 3800 HP they were too valuable on freight.
It is possible that an AN worked a passenger train before the power vans were removed, so 1992-93, but I've never seen a photo.

Peter
  Clyde Goodwin Junior Train Controller

Early days of NR haulage contract involved Triple 81 class on Hiawatha also
  M636C Minister for Railways

Early days of NR haulage contract involved Triple 81 class on Hiawatha also
Clyde Goodwin
As I posted earlier, I saw the first train run by NR (on Boxing Day 1997?) and it had an NR class.

I can imagine that they may have used 81 class occasionally, and as assistant locomotives behind NRs (well before the current change from DLs) but triple 81s sounds like one might have failed en route.

The train could run to time with two CLPs with no problems.

Can you give an approximate date for the Triple 81 class?

Peter
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I have a couple of Auscision AN class in AN green and yellow livery and was hoping these locos hauled the Indian Pacific at some stage.  I am thinking I will get one of the Auscision carriage sets but was wondering if anyone could confirm if AN's ever hauled the Indian Pacific?
Tallstreak
AN class have occasionally been used as second unit behind an NR in recent years (substituting for the more usual DL or 81).

Another class seen as second unit is G, in fact 3SA8 had an NR + G on it today.
  Just The Tip Junior Train Controller

Location: Danger zone
Early days of NR haulage contract involved Triple 81 class on Hiawatha also
As I posted earlier, I saw the first train run by NR (on Boxing Day 1997?) and it had an NR class.

I can imagine that they may have used 81 class occasionally, and as assistant locomotives behind NRs (well before the current change from DLs) but triple 81s sounds like one might have failed en route.

The train could run to time with two CLPs with no problems.

Can you give an approximate date for the Triple 81 class?

Peter
M636C
I've heard drivers talk of this, limited days before ample NRs became available?
Some say it was like sitting on a rocket!
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
A test was carried out on the East Bound IP to run it from Parkes?  to Lithgow using only one locomotive (class unknown)  but it lost some 30 minutes between the two.
In the beginning, the UP engine changes at Lithgow were carried out at the 'New' Station but later this was done near Coal Stage until it was Diesel Hauled the full distance both ways.
  G Train Locomotive Driver

The histories of the South Australian Railways, Commonwealth Railways and Victorian Railways are particularly well represented on the web. I'd be interested to find something similar for the NSWGR / NSWSRA. I thought I'd share another great website - Johnny's Pages Old SAR Shunter's Memories http://http://www.johnnyspages.com/classic_pictures_menu_files/classic_trevors_pictures_files/northern.htm which contains images of the Indian Pacific running in South Australia. The link to Trev's Pictures - Northern Workings contains some unusual loco rosterings north of Adelaide in the 80's, including:
GM-600
830-830-830 (in 1988, which also shows the 2 candy NSWSRA cars in the consist)
GM-GM-830-930-600
DL-GM-GM
and of course the ubiquitous GM-GM

Although, not the Indian Pacific -there is also an image there of The Ghan with AL-GM-GM in 1988.

One would expect the more exotic multiple unit and branchline loco rosterings were the result of an engine failure or loco balancing, perhaps to Port Pirie or Port Augusta.

Hoping these might be of interest to you all.
G Train
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Also in SAR days the IP had a steel car of standard SAR design as a wayside car that ran between Pt Pirie I think and Broken Hill and back again. This was for local passengers though only but was usually on the end of the train on account  that it had no through wiring for head end power on it. There were two of these from memory and both were 2nd class 600 cars as well. They only ran this section though on the IP.
  Streamliner Junior Train Controller

Location: NSW South Coast
The AG and BG cars are missing from the set, and perhaps the only way for SAR modellers to also get the AD and BD cars made?
  M636C Minister for Railways

The AG and BG cars are missing from the set, and perhaps the only way for SAR modellers to also get the AD and BD cars made?
Streamliner
To be strictly correct, the AG cars are missing from the Indian Pacific and the BG cars are missing from The Ghan.

I've no idea why, but the IP always had AGs and The Ghan BGs (not that there was any real difference).

Early era modellers might be able to use two RUB set cars but they'll have to buy the whole set....

But that's a minor problem compared to trying to model The Ghan with the red and yellow window band.
The set includes a BRJ that wasn't introduced until 1992.The two BRGs that were used from 1988 aren't available.
All the first class sleeping cars and the lounge and dining cars were named, to which there is no reference.
A distinctive feature of The Ghan was the lounge cars. The AOB isn't included, nor are a couple of the modified CDFs.
The Entertainment Car, a modified BRJ, isn't available and as I said above, if you use the one BRJ in the set as the AEC, what do you use for the two BRGs? There aren't enough even in the add on set.

In 1988 The Ghan had two steel Comeng Lounges, a steel Comeng Diner and two steel Comeng sitting cars class BA all in the correct colours. These were progessively replaced by stainless cars by 1993 and BGs replaced the BAs.

The red and yellow striped Ghan set is just a joke and the correct cars aren't available anywhere.

This is the biggest mistake that Auscision have made since producing the "stealth" 86 class in the wrong colours (grey instead of stone for the roof and stripe).

You can't make a realistic striped Ghan from the set and add-on cars available.

The reason that the sitting cars are not ncluded is that they can't be produced from the same die as the other cars and including them would increase the cost significantly.

If an "Overland" is made, D cars could be made at the same time, but I'm not holding my breath.

Peter
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Also in SAR days the IP had a steel car of standard SAR design as a wayside car that ran between Pt Pirie I think and Broken Hill and back again. This was for local passengers though only but was usually on the end of the train on account  that it had no through wiring for head end power on it. There were two of these from memory and both were 2nd class 600 cars as well. They only ran this section though on the IP.
David Peters
So the NSWSRA sitters were replaced by the SAR sitters at Broken Hill? Wonder if anyone rode sitter Sydney / Pt Pirie by just buying a sitter ticket to Broken Hill and a separate sitter ticket past Broken Hill, then just swapping their luggage when the cars were shunted out and in at Broken Hill?
  M636C Minister for Railways

Also in SAR days the IP had a steel car of standard SAR design as a wayside car that ran between Pt Pirie I think and Broken Hill and back again. This was for local passengers though only but was usually on the end of the train on account  that it had no through wiring for head end power on it. There were two of these from memory and both were 2nd class 600 cars as well. They only ran this section though on the IP.
David Peters
Off the top of my head, there were at least two cars, I think 500 and 600.
These were painted Regal Red and Silver when the cars on BG were still green and cream.

These preceded the introduction of the Indian Pacific and ran a passenger service replacing the old Broken Hill Express along with the SCD vans.

I saw these in Broken Hill early in January 1970. I think there may have been two sets, the other being 501+601, meaning that 2/3 of the 500s were on SG.

The original intention was that wayside passengers would be carried in reclining seats at one end of the CDF, and indeed I travelled that way on the Trans from Port Augusta to Port Pirie in January 1970. I think that the SAR cars were added to the IP so they could stop running the separate passenger train.

The sitting cars were not included on the IP in NSW initially, but the IP provided a through journey to Sydney from Broken Hill, whereas you had to change at Parkes to use the Silver City Comet and the connecting overnight mail train and the demand exceeded the available seats in the CDF.

The Auscision set does represent the Indian Pacific as it started operation in 1970.

Peter
  allan Chief Commissioner

OK, to tidy up some loose ends and to correct some inaccuracies. Four steel cars were transferred to Peterborough for use between there and Broken Hill on standard gauge. They, and most (if not all) steel cars had been repainted in red and silver since the mid-1960s. Sometime after their arrival at Peterborough their roofs were painted silver. Bright, shiny silver. They were used either as a passenger consist (with an SCD brakevan) as the "Broken Hill Express", most often as 1x500 + 1x600 + 1xSCD, or the same consist was tacked onto the end of the IP at Peterborough and removed at Broken Hill, depending on the day of the week. At this time, the IP from Sydney to Broken Hill had no dedicated sitting cars: they were introduced rather later - in AN times.
  M636C Minister for Railways

OK, to tidy up some loose ends and to correct some inaccuracies. Four steel cars were transferred to Peterborough for use between there and Broken Hill on standard gauge. They, and most (if not all) steel cars had been repainted in red and silver since the mid-1960s. Sometime after their arrival at Peterborough their roofs were painted silver. Bright, shiny silver. They were used either as a passenger consist (with an SCD brakevan) as the "Broken Hill Express", most often as 1x500 + 1x600 + 1xSCD, or the same consist was tacked onto the end of the IP at Peterborough and removed at Broken Hill, depending on the day of the week. At this time, the IP from Sydney to Broken Hill had no dedicated sitting cars: they were introduced rather later - in AN times.
allan
I'm limited by my own observations, but in 1967, NO steel cars were painted in red and silver.
The D cars and the Cafeteria were the only cars in that scheme apart from the Overland.

In 1970, the SG cars were in red and silver but obviously freshly painted.
I saw 500+600+SCD in Broken Hill yard. I'll have to check the photo for the actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure that I saw 500 on SG, either Broken Hill or Peterborough.
Other BG cars may have been painted in 1968 and 1969, but I don't recall seeing them from the 1970 visit.
The cars were pretty much all in red and silver by the time AN took over.

Peter
  wagrttn Locomotive Driver

Were the ER crew dormitory cars still on the IP in 2012 or do I need to use a BRJ instead, please?

Regards

Drew

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