Talgo proposal for 2hr Sydney-Canberra tilt train

 
  steelwheels Station Staff

Article in the Canberra Times today - Spanish company wants to trial their tilt train on the existing tracks. The proposal includes running a test train to prove the concept at no cost and then seeking $100 million to get the service up and running within 12 months!

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/twohour-train-ride-between-canberra-and-sydney-on-the-cards-20170405-gvdy7j.html

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  nswtrains Deputy Commissioner

Article in the Canberra Times today - Spanish company wants to trial their tilt train on the existing tracks. The proposal includes running a test train to prove the concept at no cost and then seeking $100 million to get the service up and running within 12 months!

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/twohour-train-ride-between-canberra-and-sydney-on-the-cards-20170405-gvdy7j.html
steelwheels
How the hell can some one disagree with a proposal that little detail is known about. Talgo have a spare set or 2 hanging around the USA doing nothing at the moment. If it fits our loading gauge why not look at the proposal. $100 million is cheap as chips.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
What is the $100m for?
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: no longer in Sydney
Been tried before with Swedish equipment.

http://www.railpage.org.au/xpt/x2000.html
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1834113.htm

The results, and reasons for not proceeding further, must be floating around the web somewhere.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Article in the Canberra Times today - Spanish company wants to trial their tilt train on the existing tracks. The proposal includes running a test train to prove the concept at no cost and then seeking $100 million to get the service up and running within 12 months!

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/twohour-train-ride-between-canberra-and-sydney-on-the-cards-20170405-gvdy7j.html
How the hell can some one disagree with a proposal that little detail is known about. Talgo have a spare set or 2 hanging around the USA doing nothing at the moment. If it fits our loading gauge why not look at the proposal. $100 million is cheap as chips.
nswtrains

I haven't been able to confirm this  unequivocally, but I believe the Talgos are over width and have a too long a wheel base for the NSW loading gauge.

Further, I don't believe Syd to Cbr can be done in under 2:30 on the current alignment using rational cant deficiency limits, much less a 220kph top speed with visual signals - even at 3:00am without any tin cans on sector 2.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
djf01 has hit  the major problem, apart from having a unit able to operate, is the existing traffic on that corridor. Either you just ban it all (gasp) to allow total access, or you have to slow it down hugely, and  offer  a more restrictive path for every other train......   I think it will not work well.

Regards,
David Head
  M636C Minister for Railways

djf01 has hit  the major problem, apart from having a unit able to operate, is the existing traffic on that corridor. Either you just ban it all (gasp) to allow total access, or you have to slow it down hugely, and  offer  a more restrictive path for every other train......   I think it will not work well.

Regards,
David Head
dthead
I get the impression that the journalists reporting this became over excited.

I went to the presentation in Canberra last night.

The presenters were Guillermo Martinez and Salvador Vidosa (being Spanish they had a few extra names as well...)

They indicated that they had achieved time savings of between 20% and 28% in applications in other systems (I think the 28% was in Kazakhstan).

So if the current journey time is four hours we could expect a reduction to say 3hr 15m down to 2h 55m.
At no stage was a travel time of 2 hours mentioned.

The plan was to bring out a standard European Talgo set and have it hauled by a locally available locomotive.
It was pointed out that no locomotives are currently permitted to run at 160km/h (except XPT power cars).

I expect that if the NSW Government supported the tests, XPT power cars would be made available.

If the tests were successful, three sets would be imported to operate the Canberra service.

A bigger problem is the low level loading platforms required to take advantage of Talgo trains.

The question and answer session was like a live version of a Railpage forum (pretty scary, really) with most of the questions from interested but uninformed participants, with a few pushing a largely irrelevant agenda of their own.

The big problems will be getting government approval, even for a test at no cost to them, and overcoming the need for low level loading, paticularly at Sydney Terminal and stations in the Sydney Trains area which will continue to need high level loading.

Peter
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I went to the presentation in Canberra last night.

The presenters were Guillermo Martinez and Salvador Vidosa (being Spanish they had a few extra names as well...)

They indicated that they had achieved time savings of between 20% and 28% in applications in other systems (I think the 28% was in Kazakhstan).
M636C

I wish I'd known it was on.  Did they leave any contact details or a web address for their presentation?

I just checked a spreadsheet I prepared based on the minimum transit times based on the current speed boards and potential for a medium speed tilting train an came up with:

XPT: 3:19  TT: 2:46

That's no traffic, non-stop (also via the Airport, but let's just ignore that little detail Smile).  A 33min improvement over 199min is a 16.6% improvement.  

30min is quite a lot and not to be sneezed at, but it's still not enough on it's own for the service to be time competitive with Murrays busses.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
djf01 has hit  the major problem, apart from having a unit able to operate, is the existing traffic on that corridor. Either you just ban it all (gasp) to allow total access, or you have to slow it down hugely, and  offer  a more restrictive path for every other train......   I think it will not work well.

Regards,
David Head
I get the impression that the journalists reporting this became over excited.

I went to the presentation in Canberra last night.

The presenters were Guillermo Martinez and Salvador Vidosa (being Spanish they had a few extra names as well...)

They indicated that they had achieved time savings of between 20% and 28% in applications in other systems (I think the 28% was in Kazakhstan).

So if the current journey time is four hours we could expect a reduction to say 3hr 15m down to 2h 55m.
At no stage was a travel time of 2 hours mentioned.

The plan was to bring out a standard European Talgo set and have it hauled by a locally available locomotive.
It was pointed out that no locomotives are currently permitted to run at 160km/h (except XPT power cars).

I expect that if the NSW Government supported the tests, XPT power cars would be made available.

If the tests were successful, three sets would be imported to operate the Canberra service.

A bigger problem is the low level loading platforms required to take advantage of Talgo trains.

The question and answer session was like a live version of a Railpage forum (pretty scary, really) with most of the questions from interested but uninformed participants, with a few pushing a largely irrelevant agenda of their own.

The big problems will be getting government approval, even for a test at no cost to them, and overcoming the need for low level loading, paticularly at Sydney Terminal and stations in the Sydney Trains area which will continue to need high level loading.

Peter
M636C
Time Trials don't need to actually carry people, they just need to simulate they are. Platform heights can be resolved another time if it goes live.
  M636C Minister for Railways

I went to the presentation in Canberra last night.

The presenters were Guillermo Martinez and Salvador Vidosa (being Spanish they had a few extra names as well...)

They indicated that they had achieved time savings of between 20% and 28% in applications in other systems (I think the 28% was in Kazakhstan).

I wish I'd known it was on.  Did they leave any contact details or a web address for their presentation?

I just checked a spreadsheet I prepared based on the minimum transit times based on the current speed boards and potential for a medium speed tilting train an came up with:

XPT: 3:19  TT: 2:46

That's no traffic, non-stop (also via the Airport, but let's just ignore that little detail Smile).  A 33min improvement over 199min is a 16.6% improvement.  

30min is quite a lot and not to be sneezed at, but it's still not enough on it's own for the service to be time competitive with Murrays busses.
djf01
There were no presentations specific to Sydney-Canberra or even Australia.

There were videos showing the largely automated factory in Spain and Powerpoints showing features of the trains relevant to their performance.

The website is Talgo.com , and should have the same material.

They indicated that they had done some simulations of the time saving but didn't give any specific figures, relying on acheived performance figures from elsewhere.

They indicated that the test runs would not carry passengers.

Peter
  a6et Minister for Railways

I went to the presentation in Canberra last night.

The presenters were Guillermo Martinez and Salvador Vidosa (being Spanish they had a few extra names as well...)

They indicated that they had achieved time savings of between 20% and 28% in applications in other systems (I think the 28% was in Kazakhstan).

I wish I'd known it was on.  Did they leave any contact details or a web address for their presentation?

I just checked a spreadsheet I prepared based on the minimum transit times based on the current speed boards and potential for a medium speed tilting train an came up with:

XPT: 3:19  TT: 2:46

That's no traffic, non-stop (also via the Airport, but let's just ignore that little detail Smile).  A 33min improvement over 199min is a 16.6% improvement.  

30min is quite a lot and not to be sneezed at, but it's still not enough on it's own for the service to be time competitive with Murrays busses.
There were no presentations specific to Sydney-Canberra or even Australia.

There were videos showing the largely automated factory in Spain and Powerpoints showing features of the trains relevant to their performance.

The website is Talgo.com , and should have the same material.

They indicated that they had done some simulations of the time saving but didn't give any specific figures, relying on acheived performance figures from elsewhere.

They indicated that the test runs would not carry passengers.

Peter
M636C
Peter.
Your memory and knowledge in these areas are by far superior to mine, however when I read the Talgo proposal and the name, it brings to mind when David Hill was put in charge of the SRA first time round in regard to Talgo trains.  Not sure if he travelled to Spain himself along with others but he certainly had a hand in investigating another Talgo concept of the time, and that was a train that had adjusting gauge bogies, and ran services on the Spanish Broad Gauge and across the border into France.

It was proposed to have them on test in Oz. Nothing came of it and the trip had some pre publicity but had a very muted response when he got home. Talgo was promoted as a very innovative company that had many proposed new ideas in the rail industry.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Why would you want to do that when a maglev in a straight tunnel could do it in 15 minutes.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Here is a link to my spreadsheet which has all the Curve and Gradient data as well as speed boards (more or less) for the Sydney to Canberra Route.


https://mega.nz/#!5WRDyKqI!lNjbiHeX8AcYNxcmvLMIn5xYp6Zo_XoqYxLwWAJM8Ks
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Moderator note: No further discussion of the Maglev will  be done in this thread. Goto theArmchair expert to find Eddy's thread.  https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2050151.htm#2050151

I will delete any further post on Maglev or similar ideas.

Regards,
David Head
Moderator


ps I PM'ed Eddy to let him know.
  Philby42 Beginner

There is a significant problem with this proposal, it will not fit. the Talgo Pendular system tilts from the top of the carriage not the bottom as with the Pendolino trains  also the trains are designed for a different platform height so there will be no combatibility. Talgo/Transtech in Finland developed a double deck concept that used a 300mm platform height made of aluminium.again not compatible with our 900mm-1m  Platforms. CAF has introduced a train into Saudi Arabia which might  work. I dont know if its is a tilt train.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There is a significant problem with this proposal, it will not fit. the Talgo Pendular system tilts from the top of the carriage not the bottom as with the Pendolino trains  also the trains are designed for a different platform height so there will be no combatibility. Talgo/Transtech in Finland developed a double deck concept that used a 300mm platform height made of aluminium.again not compatible with our 900mm-1m  Platforms. CAF has introduced a train into Saudi Arabia which might  work. I dont know if its is a tilt train.
Philby42
I think others have said the trials are non-passenger carrying, then they will modify the design for a production run.

If that is the case the trial train does not need a platform to run.  But for a production unit the paltforms are a problem, or an additional expense indeed.

David
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I'm pretty please with myself.  Talgo presented the results of their simulation at a meeting in Canberra earlier this month.  Here are there results:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2849/34000441582_af3ec8c398.jpg


&

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2825/33346635623_3356075f3a.jpg



My spreadsheet predicts time savings of 35min (200kph max) and 24min (130kph max).
  apw5910 Chief Train Controller

Location: Location: Location.
So what are the worst bits of the route? Is it worth getting rid of them to speed up the overall times? Saving half an hour in the travel time, although appealing, will not be enough to get the Talgo up and running in normal service. 3.5hrs Syd-Can is the bus travel time and you can drive it quicker than that.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Does your spreadsheet show the sector times?  Ie can it show where the train is slow running vs fast running etc?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

So what are the worst bits of the route?

Molongolo Canyon - 4km with 10x 240m radius curves
Tarago bends - 4km with 10 curves, most 240m radius

And then there is Aylmerton to Douglas park, 70 curves, mostly 400m radius, over route 58km, vs34km and no curves under 2000m radius (effectively none) via the Hume Highway alignment.

Also there is 4km east of the Defence HQ where there are 7 curves (2x240m, 5x400m) where the route appears to have been "temporarily" deviated around a hill rather than tunnelled through it, and the eastern approach to Brooks Bank tunnel (2x240m curves).
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Does your spreadsheet show the sector times?  Ie can it show where the train is slow running vs fast running etc?
james.au

Sorry, I don't know what you mean.  

The spreadsheet works off the posted speed boards and minimum curve radii to the nearest km (about as granular as the published curve and gradient diagram docs are), and I've assumed UP & DOWN speeds are the same, even though there are a few places they differ slightly.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
So what are the worst bits of the route? Is it worth getting rid of them to speed up the overall times? Saving half an hour in the travel time, although appealing, will not be enough to get the Talgo up and running in normal service. 3.5hrs Syd-Can is the bus travel time and you can drive it quicker than that.
apw5910

It's always easier to say...'you can drive it quicker than that'

Which is quite useless if one wants do anything else apart from drive the car. You may have noticed the road toll is increasing again, IMO this will be due to people attempting to do other stuff apart from concentrating on the road.

EG: texting, reading, being distracted by phone calls, being distracted by other gadgetry in the vehicle etc.

Mike.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
So what are the worst bits of the route? Is it worth getting rid of them to speed up the overall times? Saving half an hour in the travel time, although appealing, will not be enough to get the Talgo up and running in normal service. 3.5hrs Syd-Can is the bus travel time and you can drive it quicker than that.

It's always easier to say...'you can drive it quicker than that'

Which is quite useless if one wants do anything else apart from drive the car. You may have noticed the road toll is increasing again, IMO this will be due to people attempting to do other stuff apart from concentrating on the road.

EG: texting, reading, being distracted by phone calls, being distracted by other gadgetry in the vehicle etc.

Mike.
The Vinelander
True, but even if we had HSR on this route doing the trip in 60-90min the highway would be still full of cars as Syd-Canberra traffic will only be part of the high traffic and the bulk of land based transport will always be driving so we cannot use this as an excuse.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
So what are the worst bits of the route? Is it worth getting rid of them to speed up the overall times? Saving half an hour in the travel time, although appealing, will not be enough to get the Talgo up and running in normal service. 3.5hrs Syd-Can is the bus travel time and you can drive it quicker than that.

It's always easier to say...'you can drive it quicker than that'

Which is quite useless if one wants do anything else apart from drive the car. You may have noticed the road toll is increasing again, IMO this will be due to people attempting to do other stuff apart from concentrating on the road.

EG: texting, reading, being distracted by phone calls, being distracted by other gadgetry in the vehicle etc.

Mike.
True, but even if we had HSR on this route doing the trip in 60-90min the highway would be still full of cars as Syd-Canberra traffic will only be part of the high traffic and the bulk of land based transport will always be driving so we cannot use this as an excuse.
RTT_Rules

Only true to a certain extent.

Years ago more people drove from Ballarat to Melbourne than took the train...but nowadays with faster, frequent and with economical fares, more commuters are travelling by train than drive the parallel Western Highway.

Big incremental changes can occur that wouldn't hitherto be apparent at the outset, but the changes, if attractive, work and are embraced.

Mike.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
How long does it totally legally take to drive say Canberra Railway station to Central station ? Googlemaps say 3hr 3min.

Bearing in mind where the train goes, for some the travel time had to have local travel to the main station added on in total time travelled - and that goes in favor of the car.

The trip would have to be very short to entice people onto the train. True you will get city center to city center people quite happt, but that does not keep the trains full, or 1/4 full.

I suppose they could slow down road traffic Smile

Regards,
David Head

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