Are the Tiers coming to a Diesel fleet near here ?

 
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
EMDs of all flavours from about the GP7 onwards is a rebuild candidate to be fair.

EMD closed down local manufacture in an effort to reduce purchase price of Australian EMDs. Would guess the price per is something like the C44 now.

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  fzr560 Train Controller

It seems at a glance that lots of the EMD family (in the US) from SD50 onwards is a potential rebuild candidate , and heaps of DC GEs , assumes Dash 9s .
NS is updating lots of locos and pleasingly those SD60s are getting or being rebuilt with Tier series EFI 710 16s rather than the wuzy 710 12 Eco .

Had that Tier 0 90 class been serious it would have grown later EM2000 computers , EFI and an electronic air brake system .
I believe the Yanks are claiming a 7% fuel consumption reduction but I think NS also add their own brand of split cooling as well .
I think the SD60 DC had a similar poverty pac 3800 Hp 710 16 as the 90s and upgraded they crank out 4000 odd .
A 90 could use a more serious alternator and traction motors and with electronic AB probably have the ECP fit out as well .
The 5000/5020s weigh more than 90s so an axle load increase may not be an issue .

Maybe not a cheap exercise but it would future proof the smallish fleet , make them potentially cleaner more reliable/economical and available to pull the ECP coal rakes . I can't see an export GT46ACE being cheaper landed here .
BDA
With PN's loss of the Mac Generation contract, the time for rebuild/withdrawal of the 90's maybe approaching. The 90's certainly appear vulnerable in their present form. I believe PN investigated extending their use further northwest but did not proceed. The inability to do a "straight swap" in the event of engine failure was an issue. Also axle load restrictions in Werris Creek yard meant they were not suitable for banking duties.
                I'm sure the TTs could find some useful work elsewhere if PN chose to rebuild.... On the short south perhaps.

                If, as you suggest the 710, alternator and traction motors all need upgrading, wouldn't it make sense to go to GT46ACE+ standards and in effect have a heavy heavy TT?
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Not impossible provided you could find space to fit the control system bits and inverters .
USDM units have a lot more physical space inside them than ours do .
The idea originally was to have common spares with 82s so same traction motors alternators and probably individual cylinder assemblies . The trouble is that the dinky alternator holds the power output back and the higher axle loads probably mean the traction motors can be loaded to the point of cooking without wheel slip limitations . I would have though they'd have thermal overload protection but maybe not .
50 and 60 series EMDs don't look so hot on paper and you had to get to 70 series before they got serious with alternators and traction motors .
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
With a bit more reading it's obvious that some US operators have been or are rebuilding just about anything with 4000 odd horsepower preferably with split cooling .
The big issues with the EMDs seems to be cooling capacity EFI and Siemens electrical gear in the SD60/70/90MACs .
The Siemens inverters etc are drying up so the logical solution is to convert to the Mitsubishi parts like the SD70ACe series got .
The 60s and 70s don't seem to be getting the ACe sized cooling group but are stepping up to Tier 0 or 1 emissions standards .
Canadian built 90 classes look very much like a lightweight SD60 on paper .
I think the flurry of rebuilds/upgrades was driven by perceived fears of the Tier 4 units compliance issues and the possibility of them being more expensive to feed . I haven't read any reports on how the 70ACE T4 goes but someone will eventually post their opinions .
  M636C Minister for Railways

With a bit more reading it's obvious that some US operators have been or are rebuilding just about anything with 4000 odd horsepower preferably with split cooling .
The big issues with the EMDs seems to be cooling capacity EFI and Siemens electrical gear in the SD60/70/90MACs .
The Siemens inverters etc are drying up so the logical solution is to convert to the Mitsubishi parts like the SD70ACe series got .
The 60s and 70s don't seem to be getting the ACe sized cooling group but are stepping up to Tier 0 or 1 emissions standards .
Canadian built 90 classes look very much like a lightweight SD60 on paper .
I think the flurry of rebuilds/upgrades was driven by perceived fears of the Tier 4 units compliance issues and the possibility of them being more expensive to feed . I haven't read any reports on how the 70ACE T4 goes but someone will eventually post their opinions .
BDA
To address your last two posts:

The 90 class was limited to 3800 HP (like the SD60) by the capacity of the AR11 alternator, as you say.
At the time, this was probably not seen as a big problem.

I was assured that the electrical and electronic fit of the 90 class was the same as the SD70, although it kept the smaller alternator and the non-steering bogies of the SD60.

The traction motors were the same as the 82 class but with the entusiastic use of the tractive effort available on the heavy units, they went through motors rather quickly until Ready Power convinced Freight Corp to think about running three on a train rather than two. The gear ratio on the 90s was for a lower speed than the 82 class, so motors and axle sets weren't interchangeable. I got the impression after a visit to Kooragang Island that fairly soon, all the spare motors originally provided were converted to 90 class gearing.

The big change in the GT 46C-ACe Gen II units is the change to individual axle drive. The new inverters are also more compact, so there will be one less inverter cabinet that reduces the length of the hood and allows a rear walkway that couldn't be fitted in the current units. This raises the possibility of EMD domestic units being converted to AC traction, as has occurred with a few GEs to date.

In general, rebuilt older locomotives only need to meet Tier 0, but higher standards are encouraged in California particularly.

It would be possible to convert the 90 class to AC traction with this newer equipment and there is some talk of doing this to contemporary SD70Ms in the USA.

I guess we are all waiting to see what happens to current USA emissions standards with Trump embracing coal fired power stations, but it isn't clear how this is tricling down to locomotives and road trucks, for example. Then, what will be the Australian reaction to the changes in the USA. Our government is happily talking up "clean coal", without a clue as to what that means or what is required, and I think the USA is also in that situation.

I think PN would be happy to convert the 90s to AC traction (which should, even now, result in lower operating costs) while keeping the current prime movers with only minor upgrades for efficiency. But that might cost too much, and with Aurizon and GWA trying to increase market share, they might just not overhaul the 90 class and rely on their existing AC units.

To change the subject slightly, GE have sold Gevo engined locomotives to South Africa, Pakistan and India. This suggests that they could sell us a design that would fit our loading gauge. These should, I think, meet Tier 3, just as current EMD designs do. But I bet they cost more than a unit with an FDL-16. I expect these use the "old GEVO" which has a shorter (and lighter) block than the current Tier 4 GEVO.

The greater fuel consumption of Tier 4 units is attributed to fuel being used to raise the temperature of the Diesel Particulate Filter to burn off the collected particles, which occurs from time to time.

Someone has suggested that Tier 4 units cost 20% more than the equivalent Tier 3 unit.



Peter
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Well as I said I don't have the dimensions for the EMD H or 1010J , or the early and late Evolution engines .
I do know a H 16 isn't as physically as big as the difference in power may suggest over a 710 16 .
Obviously the companies design these prime movers with US domestic locomotives in mind and at times I think its a miracle that their franchises here got the existing C44ACi and GT46ACe into service with the local loading gauge and axle load .
I doubt its impossible to fit a 1010J or the current Evo engine to an ADM unit but having everything workable around it would be challenging . Cleaner things with AC drive and an acceptable sized fuel tank , and capable cooling systems probably isn't going to work with an overall 134-140T total gross .

I hear what you say about Donald Trump and his views on energy and emissions , no doubt you've been reading as well about his opinion of the war on coal . His ideas may have come a bit late for Tier 4 and the 710 but time will tell if he can bend the ears of the eco Nazis . Possibly this holds hopes for cleaner black coal power stations because its basically moronic to expect the unsustainable wind farms and solar arrays to power our future - not going to happen no matter how hard the greens and naive want to believe magic exists .
I'd actually like to see rail transport black coal from the middle and north eastern states to Vic and SA but I'm not holding my breath . Plainly the voters in those states haven't suffered enough yet to insist on workable solutions .
The Americans aren't afraid to rail coal over long distances for power generation and neither should we be . Such a thing would be good for rail infrastructure and the operators than run over it , garbage infrastructure doesn't stand up to even our brand of "heavy haul" so a good reason to make it capable .
Good revenue work for the operators and money to spend on more modern motive power .
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
So you consider climate change a myth then BDA? Why aren't I surprised....
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Climate change has been going on since the beginning of time , happens every day .
The global warming and the fictitious hokey stick you can hide from the sun by your best means .
I've lived in the same overall area for the last 50 years and no the summers are not hotter and dryer than they were in the late 60s early 70s . Ocean levels not higher and nowhere here is under water any more or less than it was then .
You want to curb emissions simple , stop the mass migration into Australia because birth rate isn't the reason our population is rising as sharply as it is . More people more resources , more resources more energy , more energy greater emissions .

Yes Global Warming - according to the once popular little fool . The dams will never fill and rain will never again touch the ground . Notice how wet its been all over in recent years ?

Modern coal fired power stations are better than the dinosaurs we have/had and far better than the brown coal burning ones .
Quite a number of first world countries are axing nuclear and going back to coal fired powered stations .
The southern states in Australia are and will continue to suffer because nut cases believe the PC rubbish that wind and solar are the answer . How so if sun doesn't shine and wind doesn't blow , its all good . People will suffer and die when its hot /cold/refrigeration browned out / Hospitals can't save lives .
What happens when the grid goes down ? Why of course they fire up the DISEASEL generator which laughs its stack off at the useless propellers and solar arrays .
With cleaner black coal burning power stations it doesn't have to be like this , and its an improvement on what has been used until recently .
I think its about time someone like Trump gave the rest of the world the finger and America looked after its own , protected its energy workforce and manufacturing industry .
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
The US EPA loco emissions regulations aren't really about greenhouse gases; they regulate Particulate Matter and NOx emissions. PM has a highly localised impact on human respiratory health (example: Mexico City). NOx pollution has a similar effect, but it's also associated with acid rain and is a minor second-order greenhouse pollutant (NOx leads to ozone formation, ozone that exists below the ozone layer contributes to the greenhouse effect).

The Americans aren't afraid to rail coal over long distances for power generation and neither should we be.
BDA
The Yanks rail coal over vast distances these days in large part because of EPA regulations around power station SO2 emissions. Powder River Basin coal from Wyoming has a much lower sulphur content compared most of the stuff coming out of the US Midwest and Appalachia.

Of course, coal haulage in the US is markedly down these days thanks to very low natural gas prices, caused by the fracking mobs pumping out so much of the stuff.
  Big J Chief Train Controller

Location: In Paradise
Climate change has been going on since the beginning of time , happens every day .
The global warming and the fictitious hokey stick you can hide from the sun by your best means .
I've lived in the same overall area for the last 50 years and no the summers are not hotter and dryer than they were in the late 60s early 70s . Ocean levels not higher and nowhere here is under water any more or less than it was then .
You want to curb emissions simple , stop the mass migration into Australia because birth rate isn't the reason our population is rising as sharply as it is . More people more resources , more resources more energy , more energy greater emissions .

Yes Global Warming - according to the once popular little fool . The dams will never fill and rain will never again touch the ground . Notice how wet its been all over in recent years ?

Modern coal fired power stations are better than the dinosaurs we have/had and far better than the brown coal burning ones .
Quite a number of first world countries are axing nuclear and going back to coal fired powered stations .
The southern states in Australia are and will continue to suffer because nut cases believe the PC rubbish that wind and solar are the answer . How so if sun doesn't shine and wind doesn't blow , its all good . People will suffer and die when its hot /cold/refrigeration browned out / Hospitals can't save lives .
What happens when the grid goes down ? Why of course they fire up the DISEASEL generator which laughs its stack off at the useless propellers and solar arrays .
With cleaner black coal burning power stations it doesn't have to be like this , and its an improvement on what has been used until recently .
I think its about time someone like Trump gave the rest of the world the finger and America looked after its own , protected its energy workforce and manufacturing industry .
BDA
No problem with your view, I disagree with it but that's fine about global warming or man made warming. Your view its natural etc etc that is fine your entitled to your opinion.

My fundamental question is is it ok to pump crap into the air?

On the same basis why do we bother with sewerage treatment plants for water, catalytic converters on cars etc. Man made impacts have no impact on the eco-system right?

I think the issue for me is that the tag of man made global warming has been hijacked by political interests of both sides. Scientist backed the wrong horse for convincing people without an interest in science.

They were better off sticking to the fundamental issue of pollution. Most people can actually grasp that notion. Is it ok with the continual growth of the human pollution to grow?

The air is lovely China isn't Wink.

If you fundamentally address air pollution you will address CO2 along with NOx H2S etc. The spin off is less greenhouse emissions to the atmosphere.

Unfortunately the ones that don't agree with "man-made global warming" because it ain't hot here will not listen.

However normally they do agree ultimately you can't poo in your in your own nest. Unless they enjoy the stench.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Climate change has been going on since the beginning of time , happens every day .
The global warming and the fictitious hokey stick you can hide from the sun by your best means .
I've lived in the same overall area for the last 50 years and no the summers are not hotter and dryer than they were in the late 60s early 70s . Ocean levels not higher and nowhere here is under water any more or less than it was then .
You want to curb emissions simple , stop the mass migration into Australia because birth rate isn't the reason our population is rising as sharply as it is . More people more resources , more resources more energy , more energy greater emissions .

Yes Global Warming - according to the once popular little fool . The dams will never fill and rain will never again touch the ground . Notice how wet its been all over in recent years ?

Modern coal fired power stations are better than the dinosaurs we have/had and far better than the brown coal burning ones .
Quite a number of first world countries are axing nuclear and going back to coal fired powered stations .
The southern states in Australia are and will continue to suffer because nut cases believe the PC rubbish that wind and solar are the answer . How so if sun doesn't shine and wind doesn't blow , its all good . People will suffer and die when its hot /cold/refrigeration browned out / Hospitals can't save lives .
What happens when the grid goes down ? Why of course they fire up the DISEASEL generator which laughs its stack off at the useless propellers and solar arrays .
With cleaner black coal burning power stations it doesn't have to be like this , and its an improvement on what has been used until recently .
I think its about time someone like Trump gave the rest of the world the finger and America looked after its own , protected its energy workforce and manufacturing industry .
No problem with your view, I disagree with it but that's fine about global warming or man made warming. Your view its natural etc etc that is fine your entitled to your opinion.

My fundamental question is is it ok to pump crap into the air?

On the same basis why do we bother with sewerage treatment plants for water, catalytic converters on cars etc. Man made impacts have no impact on the eco-system right?

I think the issue for me is that the tag of man made global warming has been hijacked by political interests of both sides. Scientist backed the wrong horse for convincing people without an interest in science.

They were better off sticking to the fundamental issue of pollution. Most people can actually grasp that notion. Is it ok with the continual growth of the human pollution to grow?

The air is lovely China isn't Wink.

If you fundamentally address air pollution you will address CO2 along with NOx H2S etc. The spin off is less greenhouse emissions to the atmosphere.

Unfortunately the ones that don't agree with "man-made global warming" because it ain't hot here will not listen.

However normally they do agree ultimately you can't poo in your in your own nest. Unless they enjoy the stench.
Big J
Pretty much sums it up.

They should have kept it simple and kept the ratbags, politicians, scientists backed by pressure groups and greenies out and just stuck with the straightforward plain facts. The sewerage analogy is a good one.

How long will it be before population growth is recognised as a problem? Never, because everything depends on money these days and that depends on economic growth. We cannot continually consume, spread, expand/grow everything for ever.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The facts , in this thread .

My points are that more highly developed and regulated diesels are better exhaust gas emissions wise .
Burning black coal of good quality , efficiently , is better than brown coal as it was in Victoria and South Australia .
AFAIK they don't have better cleaner burning/emitting coal and rail is a good means of transporting it from probably NSW and QLD .

Wind and Solar have not proven to be reliable enough to depend on and their failure is there for all to see .
Drawing a line in the sand and saying X percent of "renewable" energy by year dot does not guarantee that it is even possible
and charging end users penalties achieves SFA .

Population growth . Bare facts . People who breed more than their replacements cause population growth .
People allowing immigration cause population growth .

Actually replace cause with are directly responsible for . I am directly responsible for neither .
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Using South Australia as an example is as stupid as the fools who designed that system with only one backup, another state's power supply.

Want to see effective solar and wind power sources? Look at Europe, not the Green idiots here.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Yep and the wind/solar let them down big time .
France and Germany are turning back to coal fired power generation admittedly because of issues with and resistance to Nuclear power generation . The issue the Japanese had was poor application not the fact that a nuclear power station blew up in their faces - because it was nuclear .
From what I read the near future is going to be difficult for European leaders because they very probably won't meet their targets on the ramp up of "renewable" energy . Reason ? Cooling climates . LMAO .

Electrical energy has to be affordable for any Country's economy , fallible wind power and currently underdeveloped solar and storage technology is hideously expensive . Breaking any Country's economy in an attempt to look good first is plain stupidity .

High cost electricity hurts everyone , every business that goes under because of it makes us another step weaker .

IMO it is not practical or affordable to throw huge money at propellers and panels . Nor is it right to have to bludge electricity off other states etc . Their population growth puts pressure on their power generation and they aren't going to thank anyone for potential brown outs to prop up other states etc with a lack of responsibility to have adequate reliable power generation .
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55878Slightly off this threads topic though it mentions briefly the Tier 3 era change over of 70ACE and its slightly higher output .
Note the EMD quote - Every Model Different .
  M636C Minister for Railways

From Trains Magazine Newswire:

Good luck getting Trump's EPA to approve "nearly zero emissions..."

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The California Air Resources Board is asking the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency toughen nationwide emission rules on locomotives, ones that go beyond the current Tier 4 standard.

Diesel & Gas Turbine Worldwide reports that the California board, under the umbrella of California’s own Environmental Protection Agency, wants locomotives operated in the state to have zero or near-zero emissions. The board's chairman, Mary D. Nichols, says that new standards are needed to protect and clean up the air in “high-risk” communities, specifically ones close to rail yards.

“Reducing locomotive-related emissions and the resulting air toxic hot spots near rail yards is a high priority for disadvantaged communities within California and around the nation,” Nichols says. “A new generation of locomotives will also, once in operation, offer fuel savings to the railroad industry."
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
So California wants to pay for the electrification then? Idiots....
  fzr560 Train Controller

From Trains Magazine Newswire:

Good luck getting Trump's EPA to approve "nearly zero emissions..."

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The California Air Resources Board is asking the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency toughen nationwide emission rules on locomotives, ones that go beyond the current Tier 4 standard.

Diesel & Gas Turbine Worldwide reports that the California board, under the umbrella of California’s own Environmental Protection Agency, wants locomotives operated in the state to have zero or near-zero emissions. The board's chairman, Mary D. Nichols, says that new standards are needed to protect and clean up the air in “high-risk” communities, specifically ones close to rail yards.

“Reducing locomotive-related emissions and the resulting air toxic hot spots near rail yards is a high priority for disadvantaged communities within California and around the nation,” Nichols says. “A new generation of locomotives will also, once in operation, offer fuel savings to the railroad industry."
M636C
And Mary said all that with a straight face, Because she's very serious about protecting victims. Get out into those disadvantaged communities and smell the diesel fumes, Mary. Thats what the most powerful nation in the world smells like. Mary won't be happy until everyone in those disadvantaged communities is sitting in the dark weaving baskets. Pillock. Sorry. Self-serving pillock.
  NorthWest Locomotive Fireman

Meanwhile, California can't afford to get their own house in order and electrify Caltrain without an FTA grant which looks increasingly unlikely...

http://Railpage.com.au/news/s/deadlines-extended-caltrain-seeks-to-save-electrification

What I don't understand is why this is directed at all locomotives for the sake of yard switchers...the purpose of road locomotives is to keep them OUT of the yard and on the road...

And they're trying to change the rules about locomotive rebuilds so that they have to meet the newest standards and traditional  in-kind rebuilds are impossible. No way this passes a cost-benefit analysis. Fair game if they dictate zero-emissions to truckers, I suppose...

Not sure whether I am more upset about them being so widely detached from reality or the fact that they spent quite a bit of money in studies determining that poor people live next to rail yards....

But hey, electrics are really fuel efficient if we forget about the whole power plant part! Rolling Eyes
  jmt Assistant Commissioner

India has ordered 1000 units from GE to be delivered over the next 10 years

Locos to be Tier 1, so probably the "light GEVO"

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/ge-transportation-unveils-indian-railways-evolution-locomotive.html

300 to be 6000hp, so 16 cylinder. Will these engines be sourced from CRRC Qishuyan? http://www.crrcgc.cc/qsyen/g3787.aspx

Production of 16 and 20 cylinder EMDs at DLW will continue at around 300 units per year



Pakistan has ordered 20 additional ES43ACi, an extension to the order for 55 currently being delivered


[color=#0563c1][size=3][font=Calibri]http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/news/pakistan-railways-get-20-diesel-electric-trains/[/font][/size][/color]
  M636C Minister for Railways

India has ordered 1000 units from GE to be delivered over the next 10 years

Locos to be Tier 1, so probably the "light GEVO"

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/ge-transportation-unveils-indian-railways-evolution-locomotive.html

300 to be 6000hp, so 16 cylinder. Will these engines be sourced from CRRC Qishuyan? http://www.crrcgc.cc/qsyen/g3787.aspx

Production of 16 and 20 cylinder EMDs at DLW will continue at around 300 units per year



Pakistan has ordered 20 additional ES43ACi, an extension to the order for 55 currently being delivered


[color=#0563c1][size=3][font=Calibri]http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/news/pakistan-railways-get-20-diesel-electric-trains/[/font][/size][/color]
jmt

These are the "old" GEVO with the smaller lighter engine complying with Tier 3 and not Tier 4 (I'm sure Mel knows this, but just trying to make it clear to casual readers). The EMDs might meet also Tier 3 (or not, depending on the cooling system).

Peter
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think you'll find both manufacturers had to strengthen the latest V12s because many of the issues with the 6000 odd horsepower V16s were physical reliability ones . The 16s didn't catch on but the shorter 44/4500 Hp 12s are very basically 2/3s of similar things . You don't generally make a crankshaft of that length stronger by increasing the diameter of its journals , you make these together with their bearings and tunnels longer for the increased loadings a 4500Hp 12 has compared to a 4500 Hp 16 .
You also widen the cylinder centers which may later make liner/bore diameter increases possible . Cubic inches are still the easiest horses - provided it hangs together reliably .
Just to crunch the numbers .
4500 divide 16 = 281 Hp .
4500 divide 12 = 375 Hp .

Its interesting to wonder if they would ever make V8s , V10s or V14s of 3000 , 3750 or 5250 Hp .
  jmt Assistant Commissioner

In my post 04/03 above, was relying on Paki Press reports re the purchase of an additional 20 ES43ACi

Now that news is filtering out of Erie, turns out that they are C20EMP, so 7FDL powered

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/pakistan-railways-orders-ge-locomotives-for-the-north.html
  jmt Assistant Commissioner
  KngtRider Chief Commissioner

Location: http://www.nitroware.net
Randomly went to check the EMD website to see if there was any new F125 information as they have started trials in Cali finally, and I came across

the brochure for the GT46 Gen II specific for Australia as M636C had previous discussed several times, with a 180 tonn spec included

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10669501

Fine, but then i find this a listing for SD70ACe/LW...

GT46AC 'Australian' Cab with SD70ACe long hood, designed for the Russian clearances and Broad Gauge

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10669494

Chances of that thing working here are slim i guess pardon the pun

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