Newcastle light rail down Hunter St will be wireless

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 20 Apr 2017 10:14
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Can these trams operate 'normally' using overhead wiring, if overhead wiring is retrofitted or used on the proposed extensions? How many stops can they travel without a recharge? How does their acceleration compare with overhead-powered trams?

A passive system of regeneration, suggested by numerous others around the net, is to raise the height of the rails at each of the stops. The uphill slope assists braking on arrival and the downhill slope reduces the amount of power required for acceleration on departure. It effectively converts kinetic energy to potential energy and back again.

Sponsored advertisement

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Can these trams operate 'normally' using overhead wiring, if overhead wiring is retrofitted or used on the proposed extensions? How many stops can they travel without a recharge? How does their acceleration compare with overhead-powered trams?

A passive system of regeneration, suggested by numerous others around the net, is to raise the height of the rails at each of the stops. The uphill slope assists braking on arrival and the downhill slope reduces the amount of power required for acceleration on departure. It effectively converts kinetic energy to potential energy and back again.
kitchgp
The rise and fall concept was used I believe on Montreal Metro, but overall not that common as in most circumstances there are far more important issues to design for.

I highly doubt this can be applied to a tram to any great extent as street running system limits your options alot.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Can these trams operate 'normally' using overhead wiring, if overhead wiring is retrofitted or used on the proposed extensions? How many stops can they travel without a recharge? How does their acceleration compare with overhead-powered trams?

A passive system of regeneration, suggested by numerous others around the net, is to raise the height of the rails at each of the stops. The uphill slope assists braking on arrival and the downhill slope reduces the amount of power required for acceleration on departure. It effectively converts kinetic energy to potential energy and back again.
kitchgp

These trams will have a pantograph just like a normal light rail / tram. They will pop up at stations to recharge from an overhead fast charge point instead of from the ground.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

It's induction charging for Newcastle at every stop, not raising a pantograph to the wire for a recharge. The time needed for induction charging will be 20 seconds per stop
tezza
As far as I know CAF does not offer an inductive charge system.  Certainly not installed anywhere - CAFs existing 'wire free' installations use a short section of overhead. I can't see TfNSW being the 'first' customer of an untried system.

IMHO induction power is the worst of the lot. Significantly worse efficiency than the humble overhead wire.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Just some thoughts on the topic a Lithium Iron Phosphate batttery consisting of 160 200 Ah cells would be around 2.2 x 1.4 x 0.25 metre, weighing at 1300kg at a cost or $60,000 (without carrier, cable or monitoring system), would power a 500bhp tram for around 12 minutes at full power. These batteries DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT like being over or under charged and like all batteries are not ultra comfortable at very high charge or discharge rates.

woodford
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It's induction charging for Newcastle at every stop, not raising a pantograph to the wire for a recharge. The time needed for induction charging will be 20 seconds per stop
As far as I know CAF does not offer an inductive charge system.  Certainly not installed anywhere - CAFs existing 'wire free' installations use a short section of overhead. I can't see TfNSW being the 'first' customer of an untried system.

IMHO induction power is the worst of the lot. Significantly worse efficiency than the humble overhead wire.
Matthew
Thanks
Mentioned by others it will be a simple pano raise at tram stops.

As for redundancy concerns by others
In the unlikely event two trams are damaged beyond revenue use, they are extremely unlikely to want to move a tram up from Sydney for the prime reason that tram already has a job to do. Nothing to do with compatibility and would you take a tram from either of the two Sydney lines to deal with a problem in Newcastle reduces the service frequency? Not a chance in hell would this be signed off. The simple answer is they will substitute the tram capacity (if needed) with a bus which should be an issue especially if there is no restrictions for road vehicles to use the LR corridor and if there is they can run parrellel.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner
  Matthew Chief Train Controller



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfvvaMsqNGI
simstrain

I shot that video.

I found the entire performance of the CAF ACR 'demonstrator' underwhelming. It's not hard to keep up with the tram on foot!.

The section used to have overhead but they took it down every easter for a large easter procession to the Cathedral. This meant services were suspended for a week while they took down and reinstalled the overhead.
CAF offered ACR as the solution. The line had to get new trams to support it. One of the original mothballed Urbos2 trams was leased to Sydney for a time.

BTW the batteries used are not generally Lithium Iron Phosphate - while they are safe chemistry, their energy density isn't high enough. More volatile but denser chemistry is used. Battery management is even more important, lest you burn your batteries, has happened in Nice, France, where the trams run wire free for the same reason as Seville - processions to the main Cathedral would be constrained by tram overhead across the main square, so the trams drop pantographs and run wirefree across the square.

I believe the current CAF system uses a combination of super capacitors, as they can take a quick charge but are not very 'energy dense' and 'energy dense' batteries to provide endurance.

Also, remember that every station is now a substation. Newcastle instead of needing one substation will need one for every station in the wire free section.
Those substations, unless they have some sort of energy storage themselves, will present very 'lumpy' loads to the supply network, which will require upgrades to cope. The tramway will probably install it's own high voltage feeder alongside the line to feed the recharge points.

The money saved by not having overhead is just diverted elsewhere.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think the govt will be a little bit experimental with this project as its low risk/profile
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

I think the govt will be a little bit experimental with this project as its low risk/profile
RTT_Rules
Nah, I think they are just suckers for a sales spiel.
And flush with cash from their electricity and titles office privatisations, they are even more susceptible than normal to the salesmen.
Remember the NSW public service no longer has any significant engineering talent to evaluate technical bids for the supply of services, they were all made redundant years ago. The various government agencies are now totally at the mercy of the vendors and consultants for advice.

These wirefree boondoggles are adding system cost - both in capital and running costs and these extra costs will be rolled out as arguments against the cost-effectiveness of any future proposed extensions.

I'll still be very surprised if the Newcastle tram actually gets to putting rails in the ground, and even if they by some miracle manage to start operations, I don't give it many years before it gets mothballed like that line in Spain. After 5 years when the ACR battery packs need replacing, that will be the end of it. 'cost effective' buses will be called in to replace the 'expensive' tram.

Don't get me wrong, I want guided electric transport to spread out over our cities. Bundling in extra system costs doesn't help that aim, however.

And yes battery electric cars are rising fast - but their duty cycles are WAY different from a public transport vehicle. Private cars spend lots of time sitting idle giving ample time to charge the batteries. PT vehicles spend many continuous hours on the road being worked hard. Charging time is non-revenue down time.

I'm also less than impressed with my experience of the BYD electric buses in London. A bus less than a year old, with 78% charge showing on the control panel would start flashing 'please refuel' every time the driver applied power. The battery pack was suffering from 'voltage depression', and in bus terms, the bus was still new. 'Borismaster' hybrid electric buses running with their diesel roaring all the time because their battery packs had failed so the engine had to supply the full electrical load 100% of the time.
I'm afraid I have no faith in effective 'autonomous electric' PT. Batteries are still not up to the harsh operating conditions. Stick up an overhead wire and make it simple, reliable and long-lived.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think the govt will be a little bit experimental with this project as its low risk/profile
Nah, I think they are just suckers for a sales spiel.
And flush with cash from their electricity and titles office privatisations, they are even more susceptible than normal to the salesmen.
Remember the NSW public service no longer has any significant engineering talent to evaluate technical bids for the supply of services, they were all made redundant years ago. The various government agencies are now totally at the mercy of the vendors and consultants for advice.

These wirefree boondoggles are adding system cost - both in capital and running costs and these extra costs will be rolled out as arguments against the cost-effectiveness of any future proposed extensions.

I'll still be very surprised if the Newcastle tram actually gets to putting rails in the ground, and even if they by some miracle manage to start operations, I don't give it many years before it gets mothballed like that line in Spain. After 5 years when the ACR battery packs need replacing, that will be the end of it. 'cost effective' buses will be called in to replace the 'expensive' tram.

Don't get me wrong, I want guided electric transport to spread out over our cities. Bundling in extra system costs doesn't help that aim, however.

And yes battery electric cars are rising fast - but their duty cycles are WAY different from a public transport vehicle. Private cars spend lots of time sitting idle giving ample time to charge the batteries. PT vehicles spend many continuous hours on the road being worked hard. Charging time is non-revenue down time.

I'm also less than impressed with my experience of the BYD electric buses in London. A bus less than a year old, with 78% charge showing on the control panel would start flashing 'please refuel' every time the driver applied power. The battery pack was suffering from 'voltage depression', and in bus terms, the bus was still new. 'Borismaster' hybrid electric buses running with their diesel roaring all the time because their battery packs had failed so the engine had to supply the full electrical load 100% of the time.
I'm afraid I have no faith in effective 'autonomous electric' PT. Batteries are still not up to the harsh operating conditions. Stick up an overhead wire and make it simple, reliable and long-lived.
Matthew
You're probably right on most accounts.

- Re: NSW govt engineering department, actually there is I believe nothing wrong with this as most big industry no longer has the same and for the same reasons. You hire a Principle Contractor with the relevant experience who manages your project under an EPC or EPCM model or similar rather than rely on people who might have some experience and carry all the risk. Govt are also following more common trends of reducing risk by going lump sum where possible, although infrastructure projects such as underground Metro and Light rail have numerous limitations on being able to practically offer a lump sum contract without excessive contingency factors.

- Re: Selville, I don't know but just puting on the table, was there likely a significant impact on the project because of the Spanish banking crisis where unemployment costs and lack of revenue pretty much chewed up the budget leaving little for anything else?

Overall I tend to agree Battery system in this application is probably not the smartest and I don't see an issue with wires and if you really need to avoid wires in certain locations, use the in track 3rd rail system which seems to work ok in Dubai.

At 2.4km in length the Light rail project is already marginal in my books as the centre part of the route is the main destination from the station and for many this is a nice walking distance (bit of exercise) providing you are not in heels, wet/hot weather etc.
  edison Chief Commissioner

Speaking of aesthetic values and the use of OHW, check out the T3 line in Paris. Charming structures, running on reserved track, and having grassed surfaces. Tres bon!
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

Speaking of aesthetic values and the use of OHW, check out the T3 line in Paris. Charming structures, running on reserved track, and having grassed surfaces. Tres bon!
edison
I do find it ironic that the French are masters at building low impact overhead wires for their tramways - particularly on the T3 ring in Paris, but all over France they have graceful overhead and grassed track. Many of my own photos of French tramways it's often difficult to actually see the wire unless the photo is of a complex junction.

But the French also invented the 'Amazingly Pricy System' for when elegantly designed overhead just wasn't good enough. APS used to stand for Alimentation Par le Sol, but Alstom realising it would be a hard sell to Francophobe English speakers renamed it Aesthetic Power System. It's really due to the Mayor of Bordeaux blocking the tramway if it had to have wires in their Unesco-listed city centre. (Forgetting the fact that a number of other listed city centres all over Europe have tramway overhead - in some cases suspended from 500-year-old listed buildings!)


There is no independent verification of what APS costs to run over use of overhead. A few years back the authority in Dublin published a report on 'wire free' options. They were not impressed with the lack of clarity over what APS cost to install and run.

I've walked along (side) the APS track in both Bordeaux and in Dubai. Both showed signs of accelerated wear, and in the case of Bordeaux, repairs.

What was telling was even in Dubai I saw evidence of carbon scoring on the safety segment that's in the middle of the insulated section, so even in Dubai the system was failing to turn off power segments at times and the 'crowbar' protection was being activated. Now that the trams carry batteries, this isn't is disruptive to service as it was back when APS was first used in Bordeaux. (A dead power segment doesn't result in stranded trams they just run right over on backup power.)

I wonder if Alstom has finally got a solution. The APS track so far installed in Sydney doesn't appear to have the earthed bit in the middle of the insulated sections.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller


- Re: NSW govt engineering department, actually there is I believe nothing wrong with this as most big industry no longer has the same and for the same reasons. You hire a Principle Contractor with the relevant experience who manages your project under an EPC or EPCM model or similar rather than rely on people who might have some experience and carry all the risk.
RTT_Rules


Unfortunately, the agencies now don't have the experience to even know if their principle contractor is competent.

While the old model of having fearless engineers on staff had its issues, this new model of outsourcing everything doesn't seem to be working all that well either. At least in NSW.

And I've seen the model make complete messes of large projects in private industry too - this isn't just a problem for government agencies. Private industry is just usually better at hiding the evidence.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Speaking of aesthetic values and the use of OHW, check out the T3 line in Paris. Charming structures, running on reserved track, and having grassed surfaces. Tres bon!
I do find it ironic that the French are masters at building low impact overhead wires for their tramways - particularly on the T3 ring in Paris, but all over France they have graceful overhead and grassed track. Many of my own photos of French tramways it's often difficult to actually see the wire unless the photo is of a complex junction.

But the French also invented the 'Amazingly Pricy System' for when elegantly designed overhead just wasn't good enough. APS used to stand for Alimentation Par le Sol, but Alstom realising it would be a hard sell to Francophobe English speakers renamed it Aesthetic Power System. It's really due to the Mayor of Bordeaux blocking the tramway if it had to have wires in their Unesco-listed city centre. (Forgetting the fact that a number of other listed city centres all over Europe have tramway overhead - in some cases suspended from 500-year-old listed buildings!)


There is no independent verification of what APS costs to run over use of overhead. A few years back the authority in Dublin published a report on 'wire free' options. They were not impressed with the lack of clarity over what APS cost to install and run.

I've walked along (side) the APS track in both Bordeaux and in Dubai. Both showed signs of accelerated wear, and in the case of Bordeaux, repairs.

What was telling was even in Dubai I saw evidence of carbon scoring on the safety segment that's in the middle of the insulated section, so even in Dubai the system was failing to turn off power segments at times and the 'crowbar' protection was being activated. Now that the trams carry batteries, this isn't is disruptive to service as it was back when APS was first used in Bordeaux. (A dead power segment doesn't result in stranded trams they just run right over on backup power.)

I wonder if Alstom has finally got a solution. The APS track so far installed in Sydney doesn't appear to have the earthed bit in the middle of the insulated sections.
Matthew
I love the grassed ROW. Hopefully it used where possible in Sydney but I doubt it.

I suppose the issue with the arcing is yes it happens, but does it happen enough to be an issue?

If the tramway was built before people cared to worry about the views on 500 year old buildings then its there and they are used to it. But if its a new tram line, well people power may prevail.

I'm sure the costs of the in road system is something Alstom maybe willing to negotiate and also depends on the finish of the ROW when done.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

- Re: NSW govt engineering department, actually there is I believe nothing wrong with this as most big industry no longer has the same and for the same reasons. You hire a Principle Contractor with the relevant experience who manages your project under an EPC or EPCM model or similar rather than rely on people who might have some experience and carry all the risk.

Unfortunately, the agencies now don't have the experience to even know if their principle contractor is competent.

While the old model of having fearless engineers on staff had its issues, this new model of outsourcing everything doesn't seem to be working all that well either. At least in NSW.

And I've seen the model make complete messes of large projects in private industry too - this isn't just a problem for government agencies. Private industry is just usually better at hiding the evidence.
Matthew
Even competent contractors F_up from time to time and often this is driven by poor scoping of the project and limited funds.

I tend to feel the newer approaches are more viable than the past as if it wasn't by now things would have changed and they haven't, only headed down the path more so. Projects are defined by having an end date and the issue with an in house engineering team is that what do you do with them then. Yes there is a CAPEX budget, but METRO, CSELR type projects don't come along every few years.

Infrastructure projects are inherently complex, huge and complex interfaces, numerous unknowns, very public and political too much "one off's" to adequately have sufficient experience, subject to change due to change in govt, hence historically govt projects ran over time and over budget. By signing lump sum turn key style contracts, change in govt has less impact on the project unless its very early in the piece.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Route 109: East of Elgar Road, approaching Box Hill terminus:
http://tdu.to/39546.msg

Victoria Square, Adelaide (about the 25th photo down, the last but three):
http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=64&start=1200
Ignore the comments.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

I love the grassed ROW. Hopefully it used where possible in Sydney but I doubt it.

RTT_Rules


Not happening. Sydney City Council tried to change it, but the consultant contractors, quoting only US experience, said it wasn't viable in our climate and the project team stuck with 100% mass concrete track.

(Someone better tell those French / Spanish and Portugues Light Rail systems with extensive grassed track in similar climates to Sydney that they made a mistake)

As a result, we are getting mass concrete track through the middle of Moore Park, with the bus road (the original tram alignment) beside it.

Maybe the Newcastle project can work in some attractive grassed track.

It's quieter too - the grass absorbs the running noise instead of reflecting it.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Here's a video of Skoda battery/capacitor trams in Konya, Turkey running a wire-free section a similar length to the Newcastle line. There is no need for intermediate charges, the trams have a range of over 3 km on one charge. They charge on the move on wired sections, so there is no need for downtime to recharge. Skoda have been doing this technology for a number of years in both trolleybuses and trams. They're not newcomers to it like CAF.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJL3c01Y59g

Sydney Airport/Carbridge are running a number of BYD 12 metre battery-electric buses on very busy shuttle services. They seem to be holding up well and certainly perform well even with a full load. They have a range of over 300 km without a top-up, which is adequate for a typical roster and means they only need to be recharged overnight.
  TomBTR Chief Train Controller

Location: near Sydney
I love the grassed ROW. Hopefully it used where possible in Sydney but I doubt it.
Not happening. Sydney City Council tried to change it, but the consultant contractors, quoting only US experience, said it wasn't viable in our climate and the project team stuck with 100% mass concrete track.

(Someone better tell those French / Spanish and Portugues Light Rail systems with extensive grassed track in similar climates to Sydney that they made a mistake)

It's quieter too - the grass absorbs the running noise instead of reflecting it.
Matthew
Well it only took me a year to grow this (7-1/4" track, full scale grass):

I expect that with eight times the soil depth it would be much easier in full scale. Not only that, in full size there is room to just unroll buffalo turf.

Sad about Moore Park - we'll be lucky to see trams in Newcastle, much less lawn track. I'd love to proved wrong.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
How about a crossover and run the Hunter sets up Hunter street?
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Here's a video of Skoda battery/capacitor trams in Konya, Turkey running a wire-free section a similar length to the Newcastle line. There is no need for intermediate charges, the trams have a range of over 3 km on one charge. They charge on the move on wired sections, so there is no need for downtime to recharge. Skoda have been doing this technology for a number of years in both trolleybuses and trams. They're not newcomers to it like CAF.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJL3c01Y59g

Sydney Airport/Carbridge are running a number of BYD 12 metre battery-electric buses on very busy shuttle services. They seem to be holding up well and certainly perform well even with a full load. They have a range of over 300 km without a top-up, which is adequate for a typical roster and means they only need to be recharged overnight.
tonyp
Actually saw these trams operating about this time last year. The wire free section is not all that long but appear to operate well. I did not know they were wire free until I noted the pantograph on one going down just before the wire free section.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
^^^
Your observation probably says a lot about how significant OHW actually are as an aesthetic issue. In other words you don't even notice whether there were wires or not! The anti-wires brigade operates on the principle that as soon as somebody walks into an urban environment their eyes will not see the ugly buildings, traffic lights, comms cables, advertisements etc etc but will relentlessly zero in on a very thin strand of wire in the air.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sydney, Parramatta and Newcastle's LR vehicles are/will be much cheaper per vehicle to purchase and maintain then Melbourne's. All of our LRV's are production models off the shelf from Europe. Parts are cheaper because of the volume's needed from the European systems and 100% compatible with them. Nothing is stopping overhead being used if these overhead free systems don't work out and every tram will still have panto capability meaning that they actually are 100% compatible and capable of being deployed on any of the new LRV networks in NSW.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

How do they compare with Adelaide's, Canberra's or The Gold Coast's? How do the operating costs compare? The actual maintenance costs will only be determined by a few years of operation. Any new system has its teething problems but hopefully they have been modified for Australian conditions, eg +35C. You'll see plenty of off-the-shelf Melbourne buses broken down in freeway emergency lanes in summer or with holes cut in the back for additional fans in a failed attempt to improve cooling. A full-passenger battery-powered load on a 40C day in Newcastle should be interesting (possibly why they went for smaller trams). Anyway the people most qualified to comment on the above are probably too busy building trams in Dandenong.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: edison, RTT_Rules, TomBTR

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.