Duplicating between Geelong and Waurn Ponds

 
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
I would go further and say we need electrication of the network to South Geelong and perhaps Armstrong creek and we need serious consideration of running trains back to Drysdale.
bevans
The previous Liberal State Government funded a study that looked at providing new passenger rail services to both Torquay and Drysdale.  To my knowledge the findings of this study have never been made public.

Indeed the study is still referred to on the PTV website.

https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/projects/rail-projects/rail-feasibility-studies/#drysdale

Based on the recent funding announcements I'm guessing the study supported the Torquay link.  Maybe the Drysdale link was not supported?

Ross

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  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

[color=#333333][size=4][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, "Segoe UI", Segoe, "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]James974[/font][/size][/color], I thought you were above the level of Myrtone, but alas it appears as if you are as childish as he is when it comes to people offering expanded ideas ontop of narrow focussed threads.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

[color=#333333][size=4][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]James974[/font][/size][/color], I thought you were above the level of Myrtone, but alas it appears as if you are as childish as he is when it comes to people offering expanded ideas ontop of narrow focussed threads.
I don't mind expanding ideas anything on the Geelong line is acceptable, but most of these ideas don't even expand on the Geelong line, but RRL electrification may happen with the Quadding only needed between sunshine and Deer Park also with the Werribee extension to Wyndham Vale only in 20-30 years time. But the rest are just not nesserary for now, or not relatable to the topic at all. Bendigo link is more likely be on the Bendigo duplication thread, Melbourne metro 2 I made a seperate thread just for that, And Werribee South is more likely to better be discussed with the Metro 2 thread or in Melbourne extensions thread.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Quad Werribee to Southern Cross via Newport and Fishermen's Bend
John.Z
Hear, hear. I have been saying this for nearly 2 years!
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

[color=#333333][size=4][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]James974[/font][/size][/color], I thought you were above the level of Myrtone, but alas it appears as if you are as childish as he is when it comes to people offering expanded ideas ontop of narrow focussed threads.
I don't mind expanding ideas anything on the Geelong line is acceptable, but most of these ideas don't even expand on the Geelong line, but RRL electrification may happen with the Quadding only needed between sunshine and Deer Park also with the Werribee extension to Wyndham Vale only in 20-30 years time. But the rest are just not nesserary for now, or not relatable to the topic at all. Bendigo link is more likely be on the Bendigo duplication thread, Melbourne metro 2 I made a seperate thread just for that, And Werribee South is more likely to better be discussed with the Metro 2 thread or in Melbourne extensions thread.
James974
Don't think you understood why we want Werribee to Southern Cross quaded, so I'll expand.

It allows Geelong trains (Electric loco-hauled, 200 to 250km/hr) to run express from Lara to Southern Cross via the most direct route. Which in turn allows Tarneit and Wyndham Vale to be serviced by metro service, which in turn frees up space on the RRL tracks for Airport trains. It's a trickle down policy which has huge capacity increase implications.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

John. Why not Quad RRL instead much cheaper and easier to do than what you propose. If the point is to seperate vlines off tarniet and Wyndham vale then just Quad the danm RRL, the route distance isn't that significantly different. Also RRL already has provision for it to happen so most of the planning is done. The problem with your solution is between Yarraville and Footscray and there would involve signicant disruption on three lines, Altona, Werribee and Williamstown lines and require property aquisitions.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

John. Why not Quad RRL instead much cheaper and easier to do than what you propose. If the point is to seperate vlines off tarniet and Wyndham vale then just Quad the danm RRL, the route distance isn't that significantly different. Also RRL already has provision for it to happen so most of the planning is done. The problem with your solution is between Yarraville and Footscray and there would involve signicant disruption on three lines, Altona, Werribee and Williamstown lines and require property aquisitions.
James974
The problem is that the Wyndham Vale and Tarneit Stations are best suited for metro services, and eventually the Geelong line will require it's own path independent of Ballarat and Bendigo etc. so it may as well be done properly from the start.

From Werribee, to Newport, the Geelong line runs express and parallel to the Werribee line. Just before Newport Station, both the Werribee and Geelong Lines would run underground to an underground Newport platforms before tunnelling through fishermens' bend towards southern cross.

The Werribee South (Altona) line and the williamstown line would run via the exsiting footscray line through to glen waverly via a reconfigured city loop east-west portal.

Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross

Trains from Bacchus Marsh and Lara would run via another path (Lara train would form backbone of services for Wyndham Vale and Tarneit, Bacchus Marsh for Melton/Rockbank/Caroline Springs), before throughrouting to Belgrave/Lilydale via the Viaducts (Southern Cross and Flinders St).

I can draw a quick map if it would make it easier to understand.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

John. Why not Quad RRL instead much cheaper and easier to do than what you propose. If the point is to seperate vlines off tarniet and Wyndham vale then just Quad the danm RRL, the route distance isn't that significantly different. Also RRL already has provision for it to happen so most of the planning is done. The problem with your solution is between Yarraville and Footscray and there would involve signicant disruption on three lines, Altona, Werribee and Williamstown lines and require property aquisitions.
The problem is that the Wyndham Vale and Tarneit Stations are best suited for metro services, and eventually the Geelong line will require it's own path independent of Ballarat and Bendigo etc. so it may as well be done properly from the start.

From Werribee, to Newport, the Geelong line runs express and parallel to the Werribee line. Just before Newport Station, both the Werribee and Geelong Lines would run underground to an underground Newport platforms before tunnelling through fishermens' bend towards southern cross.

The Werribee South (Altona) line and the williamstown line would run via the exsiting footscray line through to glen waverly via a reconfigured city loop east-west portal.

Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross

Trains from Bacchus Marsh and Lara would run via another path (Lara train would form backbone of services for Wyndham Vale and Tarneit, Bacchus Marsh for Melton/Rockbank/Caroline Springs), before throughrouting to Belgrave/Lilydale via the Viaducts (Southern Cross and Flinders St).

I can draw a quick map if it would make it easier to understand.
John.Z
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F2f4dg0OiIBi_0DWWbyg4lhZ1PY&usp=sharing
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

"Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross"

Considering the fuss still being kicked up by some Geelong passengers over the RRL skipping North Melbourne and forcing them to change trains at Footscray, this may be a tough sell for some.

A lot of the arguments here seem to be working from the assumption that the idea is to improve the service from Geelong to Melbourne, when any close look at the reality of transport planning in the region for the last twenty years would suggest that the real idea is to improve the services from areas around Geelong by allowing them access to the Geelong service.

New lines to Torquay and Drysdale will put more people onto the already crowded trains to Melbourne, as will the planned new stations between Wyndham Vale and Deer Park. A tunnel from Newport through Fisherman's Bend to Southern Cross might be built in the medium term, but if so it seems much more likely it'll be used to get more people from Werribee and Point Cook into the city, not to improve the Geelong service.

It seems as though those in charge feel that Geelong-Melbourne currently runs on a perfectly good set of tracks, and any expansions planned will be designed to allow more people access to those tracks.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

"Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross"

Considering the fuss still being kicked up by some Geelong passengers over the RRL skipping North Melbourne and forcing them to change trains at Footscray, this may be a tough sell for some.

A lot of the arguments here seem to be working from the assumption that the idea is to improve the service from Geelong to Melbourne, when any close look at the reality of transport planning in the region for the last twenty years would suggest that the real idea is to improve the services from areas around Geelong by allowing them access to the Geelong service.

New lines to Torquay and Drysdale will put more people onto the already crowded trains to Melbourne, as will the planned new stations between Wyndham Vale and Deer Park. A tunnel from Newport through Fisherman's Bend to Southern Cross might be built in the medium term, but if so it seems much more likely it'll be used to get more people from Werribee and Point Cook into the city, not to improve the Geelong service.

It seems as though those in charge feel that Geelong-Melbourne currently runs on a perfectly good set of tracks, and any expansions planned will be designed to allow more people access to those tracks.
Tony M.
Did you look at the map, my version shows the Geelong line express through all the stops on the RRL except Wyndham Vale specifically for interchange with Werribee line. Yes Werribee line has to be extended all the way to Tarneit and would require more rolling stock of course. This long term plan is for Geelong and surrounding areas, yes the branches may get congested but new rolling stock is the answer and basically extending the terminus to the Drysdale, Torquay and Waurn Ponds into the future. Avalon rail link also needs consideration as well.
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

"Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross"

Considering the fuss still being kicked up by some Geelong passengers over the RRL skipping North Melbourne and forcing them to change trains at Footscray, this may be a tough sell for some.

A lot of the arguments here seem to be working from the assumption that the idea is to improve the service from Geelong to Melbourne, when any close look at the reality of transport planning in the region for the last twenty years would suggest that the real idea is to improve the services from areas around Geelong by allowing them access to the Geelong service.

New lines to Torquay and Drysdale will put more people onto the already crowded trains to Melbourne, as will the planned new stations between Wyndham Vale and Deer Park. A tunnel from Newport through Fisherman's Bend to Southern Cross might be built in the medium term, but if so it seems much more likely it'll be used to get more people from Werribee and Point Cook into the city, not to improve the Geelong service.

It seems as though those in charge feel that Geelong-Melbourne currently runs on a perfectly good set of tracks, and any expansions planned will be designed to allow more people access to those tracks.
Did you look at the map, my version shows the Geelong line express through all the stops on the RRL except Wyndham Vale specifically for interchange with Werribee line. Yes Werribee line has to be extended all the way to Tarneit and would require more rolling stock of course. This long term plan is for Geelong and surrounding areas, yes the branches may get congested but new rolling stock is the answer and basically extending the terminus to the Drysdale, Torquay and Waurn Ponds into the future. Avalon rail link also needs consideration as well.
James974
Your map shows what I consider to be the best case scenario - duplication of the RRL to separate it from Metro services to Wyndham Vale, Tarniet and the future stations on that stretch. That would be the easiest way to improve the Geelong service.

My concern is that I don't think improving the Geelong service is part of the current plan. Rather, I suspect any improvements will only happen to maintain a roughly equivalent service (much as the RRL didn't actually improve the travel times to and from Geelong). I fear that new stations will be added past Wyndham Vale and the Geelong trains will stop at some of them, extended services will mean more passengers will board at Waurn Ponds and Marshall, and so long as the trains arrive roughly on time and the standing-room only conditions don't kick in until Geelong station that's as good a service as we can expect on this line.

Any improvements will be designed to allow more people from growth areas to use the current service, not to improve the current service for those already using it.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

"Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross"

Considering the fuss still being kicked up by some Geelong passengers over the RRL skipping North Melbourne and forcing them to change trains at Footscray, this may be a tough sell for some.

A lot of the arguments here seem to be working from the assumption that the idea is to improve the service from Geelong to Melbourne, when any close look at the reality of transport planning in the region for the last twenty years would suggest that the real idea is to improve the services from areas around Geelong by allowing them access to the Geelong service.

New lines to Torquay and Drysdale will put more people onto the already crowded trains to Melbourne, as will the planned new stations between Wyndham Vale and Deer Park. A tunnel from Newport through Fisherman's Bend to Southern Cross might be built in the medium term, but if so it seems much more likely it'll be used to get more people from Werribee and Point Cook into the city, not to improve the Geelong service.

It seems as though those in charge feel that Geelong-Melbourne currently runs on a perfectly good set of tracks, and any expansions planned will be designed to allow more people access to those tracks.
Tony M.
Geelong passengers hated the fact that their train went right past North Melbourne station and did not stop, when it did so previously. Geelong trains have traditionally stopped at Werribee, Newport, Footscray and North Melbourne. Returning the Geelong line to this corridor, and having some passengers change at Werribee would just be a continuation of old habits pre-RRL.

I agree new lines to Torquay and Drysdale should also be on the cards, but if the government is keen on decentralisation, then it needs an effective and quick way for Geelong commuters to reach the city. With the vaccant land between Torquay and Geelong quickly filling, it's only a matter of time where the demand for trains between Geelong and Melbourne require a dedicated track path into the city.

With talks of Metro Tunnel 2, linking Werribee to Mernda, it would make sense to kill two birds with one stone and combine this project with a dedicated track pair to geelong (both projects are definitely 20 to 30 years down the track, so this need is not unforseen). But as we know (like CD9), the government is not always smart with how it can save money by combining projects (Dandenong Quadding at same time as level crossing removals).
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

"Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross"

Considering the fuss still being kicked up by some Geelong passengers over the RRL skipping North Melbourne and forcing them to change trains at Footscray, this may be a tough sell for some.

A lot of the arguments here seem to be working from the assumption that the idea is to improve the service from Geelong to Melbourne, when any close look at the reality of transport planning in the region for the last twenty years would suggest that the real idea is to improve the services from areas around Geelong by allowing them access to the Geelong service.

New lines to Torquay and Drysdale will put more people onto the already crowded trains to Melbourne, as will the planned new stations between Wyndham Vale and Deer Park. A tunnel from Newport through Fisherman's Bend to Southern Cross might be built in the medium term, but if so it seems much more likely it'll be used to get more people from Werribee and Point Cook into the city, not to improve the Geelong service.

It seems as though those in charge feel that Geelong-Melbourne currently runs on a perfectly good set of tracks, and any expansions planned will be designed to allow more people access to those tracks.
Geelong passengers hated the fact that their train went right past North Melbourne station and did not stop, when it did so previously. Geelong trains have traditionally stopped at Werribee, Newport, Footscray and North Melbourne. Returning the Geelong line to this corridor, and having some passengers change at Werribee would just be a continuation of old habits pre-RRL.

I agree new lines to Torquay and Drysdale should also be on the cards, but if the government is keen on decentralisation, then it needs an effective and quick way for Geelong commuters to reach the city. With the vaccant land between Torquay and Geelong quickly filling, it's only a matter of time where the demand for trains between Geelong and Melbourne require a dedicated track path into the city.

With talks of Metro Tunnel 2, linking Werribee to Mernda, it would make sense to kill two birds with one stone and combine this project with a dedicated track pair to geelong (both projects are definitely 20 to 30 years down the track, so this need is not unforseen). But as we know (like CD9), the government is not always smart with how it can save money by combining projects (Dandenong Quadding at same time as level crossing removals).
John.Z
Geelong passengers can access North Melbourne via Footscray, not just a big deal, since they're are many trains for connection and only add a few minutes to the journey. For the rest, adding Werribee line to Wyndham Vale for interchange will solve most of these problems.

To fix the problems of the growing patronage of the two Metropolitan stop and future stop as shown in maps is to make the Werribee line extended onto current RRL tracks and put two new tracks that will express through and another two track will do the same between DeerPark to Sunshine. Then Geelong service would run like this Little River-Wyndham Vale-DeerPark-Sunshine-Footscray-Southerncross. That doesn't sound to bad getting into the city and as five interchanges in Melbourne to choose from.
It kills two stones by Quadding Sunshine and Deerpark, then Quad between Tarneit and Wyndham Vale. So Ballarat trains can be separated from the Melton line.

And another is that if you want to fully seperate the Geelong line, I don't see how you gonna provide two extra track from Yarraville-Southern Cross. It would need to still connect with existing RRL. Even the Ballarat and Geelong lines are fine on the track, even at the max frequency 20 minutes they still run 10 minute, if you add Bendigo to the mix it be 6.5 minutes. If the Geelong line got to frequencies of 10 minutes then I would consider the two extra track between Sunshine and Southern Cross, when it is electrified.

The project I set achieves basically the same objective with your plan but will be 10 times cheaper and less disruptive than your plan. RRL is not in built up area, Werribee line is. Makes a hell of a difference in construction. Plus the acquisitions on Yarraville. Yeah tell that to the residents they will be pleased.

I don't see any issues with my plan other than the North Melbourne issue.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Over 6 years ago I put this together. I think it's even more relevant today-

  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Geelong trains can't run in a tunnel, they run on diesel remember. Seriously this is just a thought bubble not going to happen. If you want Geelong trains to run express, just Quad the RRL between Wyndham vale and Tarniet and Sunshine and Deerpark. Electrify and extend the Werribee line to Tarniet and the other future stations, and there it works. If you check out my map it makes sense to do it like this.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

Geelong trains can't run in a tunnel, they run on diesel remember. Seriously this is just a thought bubble not going to happen. If you want Geelong trains to run express, just Quad the RRL between Wyndham vale and Tarniet and Sunshine and Deerpark. Electrify and extend the Werribee line to Tarniet and the other future stations, and there it works. If you check out my map it makes sense to do it like this.
James974
Geelong electrification will happen.   Surprised it hasn't happened already.  Same with the Ballarat line once its fully duplicated.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Geelong Electrification not gonna happen for 30 years, trust me. So I don't think Geelong trains would be suited to run through the tunnel unless we wait that long.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Geelong trains can't run in a tunnel, they run on diesel remember. Seriously this is just a thought bubble not going to happen. If you want Geelong trains to run express, just Quad the RRL between Wyndham vale and Tarniet and Sunshine and Deerpark. Electrify and extend the Werribee line to Tarniet and the other future stations, and there it works. If you check out my map it makes sense to do it like this.
Geelong electrification will happen.   Surprised it hasn't happened already.  Same with the Ballarat line once its fully duplicated.
tazzer96

I have read on here a good project would be the electrification of Melbourne - Geelong South (Colac) and North Geelong to Wendoree and thence Ballarat to Melbourne all on AC.  This would create jobs and save money if you consider Geelong will have a timetable of 20 minutes or less for much of the day over the next 2 years. Ballarat would be 30 minutes in the next few years maybe even 25?
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Geelong trains can't run in a tunnel, they run on diesel remember. Seriously this is just a thought bubble not going to happen. If you want Geelong trains to run express, just Quad the RRL between Wyndham vale and Tarniet and Sunshine and Deerpark. Electrify and extend the Werribee line to Tarniet and the other future stations, and there it works. If you check out my map it makes sense to do it like this.
James974
Have you ever driven a car, truck or bus through a tunnel? Have you seen the "rare" photos of loco's or even V/Locities going through the City Loop? Don't tell me emissions based vehicles "can't" run in a tunnel. I don't even think my post even mentioned running diesels in a tunnel????





More to the point have you even travelled on the line? I have and I do daily.

V/Line carried the most passengers it ever has in March with the Geelong line carrying the majority. Nearly every service in AM & PM peak is at capacity as well as each hourly service on the weekend. The RRL lines between Southern Cross and Sunshine are at capacity. Sure, electrification of Melton will ease this but that project hasn't even started and I'm sure with the growth on the Ballarat line those paths will be eaten up straight away.

If you read the PTV Network Development Plan the Geelong line will be electrified.



The Geelong line needs its own dedicated and direct route to the city.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

When the Geelong line hits every 10 minutes then elctrifying would be a money worth job, and be like the Newcastle line in Sydney. But for the moment it is not happening, 20-30 years yes I could see this happening, but still think a extended Werribee line can service via the metro tunnel 2 since this will probably happen first before the electrification to Geelong. But who know what will happen?? It is years away but the general idea is to seperate the Geelong line off the Metro services, so all have a common agreement. It's just is which is more of preferred route. Time will tell of course.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Sam I don't think you looked at my map it would make alot of sense, it also does the same thing as your plan just provide quadding on the existing RRL and would eventually have a dedicated track from Geelong to Deerpark. Only the Ballarat line will share a portion of the line, but when the Ballarat is electrified it would run as the Melton line extension. The Benigo line can be used via Melbourne Airport Rail link. And still has the dedicated route into the city. I never objected a Geelong electrification but I remeber it was one of the last initiatives in the PTV plan. Metro 2 tunnel will be used for the Extended Werribee line which will run on the RRL to stop at the stops like Tarniet and Wynham Vale. And there you go all dedicated seperate line. The plan works. So don't tell me it doesn't deliver the capacity on the Geelong line when it essentially does. It is the same idea just different upgrades made to make it happen.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F2f4dg0OiIBi_0DWWbyg4lhZ1P...
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
"Geelong passengers could change to werribee trains at werribee if they need to go to any station before southern cross"

Considering the fuss still being kicked up by some Geelong passengers over the RRL skipping North Melbourne and forcing them to change trains at Footscray, this may be a tough sell for some.

A lot of the arguments here seem to be working from the assumption that the idea is to improve the service from Geelong to Melbourne, when any close look at the reality of transport planning in the region for the last twenty years would suggest that the real idea is to improve the services from areas around Geelong by allowing them access to the Geelong service.

New lines to Torquay and Drysdale will put more people onto the already crowded trains to Melbourne, as will the planned new stations between Wyndham Vale and Deer Park. A tunnel from Newport through Fisherman's Bend to Southern Cross might be built in the medium term, but if so it seems much more likely it'll be used to get more people from Werribee and Point Cook into the city, not to improve the Geelong service.

It seems as though those in charge feel that Geelong-Melbourne currently runs on a perfectly good set of tracks, and any expansions planned will be designed to allow more people access to those tracks.
Did you look at the map, my version shows the Geelong line express through all the stops on the RRL except Wyndham Vale specifically for interchange with Werribee line. Yes Werribee line has to be extended all the way to Tarneit and would require more rolling stock of course. This long term plan is for Geelong and surrounding areas, yes the branches may get congested but new rolling stock is the answer and basically extending the terminus to the Drysdale, Torquay and Waurn Ponds into the future. Avalon rail link also needs consideration as well.
Your map shows what I consider to be the best case scenario - duplication of the RRL to separate it from Metro services to Wyndham Vale, Tarniet and the future stations on that stretch. That would be the easiest way to improve the Geelong service.

My concern is that I don't think improving the Geelong service is part of the current plan. Rather, I suspect any improvements will only happen to maintain a roughly equivalent service (much as the RRL didn't actually improve the travel times to and from Geelong). I fear that new stations will be added past Wyndham Vale and the Geelong trains will stop at some of them, extended services will mean more passengers will board at Waurn Ponds and Marshall, and so long as the trains arrive roughly on time and the standing-room only conditions don't kick in until Geelong station that's as good a service as we can expect on this line.

Any improvements will be designed to allow more people from growth areas to use the current service, not to improve the current service for those already using it.
Tony M.
Electrifying the RRL will present issues within itself. Who from Tarneit will catch a Metro service via Werribee which will take 50+ minutes (calculated via the current V/Line & Metro timetables & V/Line Network Service Plan) when they had a V/Line service which took just over 30 minutes? That will be a hard sell!
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Actually make the Melton line have a branch to Tarniet and Tarniet west stations, so Quad between Sunshine and Tarniet west. And the Werribee line can be extended as far as Sayers Road station. There is your problem fixed. The track distance would be greater but that would fix that potential issue. I can always edit the map, I'll let you know when that is complete.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

On the electrification bit, there is also the electrification effect where you will see an explosion of passengers just because its an electric train, even if there aren't many other improvements.   But there would clearly be an a reduction in travel time and most likely increased comfort.  An EMU capable of 160km/h could complete an all stops geelong service in roughly the same time as an express velocity due to increase acceleration and braking.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Sam Not like you addressed this issue as part of your plan, so Don't be so surprised that my plan needs tweaks, but most improtantly it addresses the issue by making Geelong  Rains express via
RRL.

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