State Govt's Regional Rail Revival

 
  steve195 Train Controller

Turnbull also known as mr Harbourside has committed $6b to the second Sydney airport and labour has committed a train the airport they will construct. Total investment by the Feds is $11b. The private sector will not touch it which probably means it is a dog?

Where is the money for Victoria as the fastest growing state?

The Feds will not fund any projects here because they are the wrong projects?
MetroFemme

Federal elections tend to be won or lost in Western Sydney and some parts of regional NSW and QLD. So guess where the billions are being spent?

The economic viability of infrastructure projects doesn't really count for much sadly. Look at the East-West link - economically, it would have been a total failure, but it was crucial to Abbott in the 2013 election so the committed big $$ for it.

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  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.
x31
Going by the media releases, the decision has been made.

The 3+ hour journey to Echuca on a V/Locity doesn't seem to get too many complaints.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.
x31

I am rather intrigued by this statement, quite a few people have said the V'lo's will be no good, uncomfortable and what ever else, for long distance travel ?

I used too travel to the footy in Melbourne say half a dozen times a year, mainly from Ararat, as well a being a wheelchair man, would jump off my wheeled beast and sit in the passenger seat's and didn't find them uncomfortable at all ???

Interesting, can anyone elaborate on what they have found so uncomfortable.

As for loud, you can certainly hear the engines running and or working hard under load but not load by any means.

Any how that is my perspective. Very Happy

BigShunter.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.

I am rather intrigued by this statement, quite a few people have said the V'lo's will be no good, uncomfortable and what ever else, for long distance travel ?

I used too travel to the footy in Melbourne say half a dozen times a year, mainly from Ararat, as well a being a wheelchair man, would jump off my wheeled beast and sit in the passenger seat's and didn't find them uncomfortable at all ???

Interesting, can anyone elaborate on what they have found so uncomfortable.

As for loud, you can certainly hear the engines running and or working hard under load but not load by any means.

Any how that is my perspective. Very Happy

BigShunter.
BigShunter
The noise emitted varies greatly depending on where you sit and the condition of the unit.  Being in a wheel chair you are likely to take a seat over the bogie and significantly way from the alternator, main engine and transmission.

I find the alternator to be the biggest offender, they can be very loud.  Next would be the whine of the transmission.   The main engine not so much (whether that is due to its noise being proportional to acceleration and speed being a better sensory thing or not, I don't know).   Also there are the usual resonating rattles in the roof equipment depending on load and speed.

The tuning of the traction control, if indeed it has something for that purpose, varies significantly too.   Some take up nicely and feather the power on as the wheels pick up their feet.  Others light the wheels up and then shut off suddenly in a cyclic hunt that causes the cars to run in and out.   Being typically on the first train in the morning with wet rails it can be most consistent and annoying.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.
Going by the media releases, the decision has been made.

The 3+ hour journey to Echuca on a V/Locity doesn't seem to get too many complaints.
SamTheMan79

Maybe passengers are travelling more between Echuca and Bendigo rather than the trip between Echuca and Melbourne?
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Given the above comments on the Vlocities, why not contact Bombardier? They would be the ones designing the long-distance version of the Vlocity, so now would be the time to take all the customer feedback into account.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Given the above comments on the Vlocities, why not contact Bombardier? They would be the ones designing the long-distance version of the Vlocity, so now would be the time to take all the customer feedback into account.
TheMeddlingMonk

How accurate is this statement there will be a different style of velocity for longer distance travel as one would expect a 4 or 5 car service for longer distance?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I would say there will only be one class of Velocity, If people don't like that, well tough luck !

Because there will be others who would happily take their seat.


There are V/Line coach journeys that go a lot longer than the longest train journey !
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.
x31

It will be the next generation of VLocity's that operate to Warrnambool.

I've never had an issue with VLocity seats and I travel 800Km a week in them. Fly with Virgin airlines domestically for 2 hours then make a comparison...

The comparison in favour of VLocity seats is stark.

Mike.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
At least the seats on virgin recline for long journeys
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

nozza99
http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/regionalrailrevival/
Ok, further to this ^^^ there was this:
http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/labor-governments-regional-rail-revival-continues/ (probably linked already).

"To give regional Victoria the best trains, the Budget provides $311.1 million for 39 new VLocity carriages, building on the 48 we’ve already funded – all of them built in Victoria. This investment will also fund a major re-design of VLocity trains, to enable them to run on long-haul services, including on the North East Line."


However I think it's pertinent that we talk about the seats within the Vlocity rail carriages. Especially the poor lumbar support, and the fact that those with tray tables at the rear give a nice bump everytime they are opened and closed.

I had written to the government last year, and got a response of (and I paraphrase) "these trains are not used for long-haul, so seats don't really matter".

Given they will indeed now be used for long-haul, I reckon we should all put pressure on the government to fix or upgrade the seats. Especially in any new carriages, or any refurbs.

So below is a precedent, of which you're welcome to amend/adapt to your hearts content. But please send via snail mail. Usually holds more weight that way.

TIA


The Hon. Daniel Andrews MP
1 Treasury Place
Melbourne, Victoria
Australia, 3002

NEW VLOCITY TRAIN ROLLING STOCK

It is my understanding that your government will order new VLocity trains from Bombardier in Dandenong.

While I applaud and welcome the purchases, the seating in existing VLocity rolling stock is incredibly uncomfortable given the long natured duration of the train travel undertaken on the lines they service. This issue would be further exacerbated if the VLocity trains do indeed become a replacement to the current N Class/Type trains/carriages, that service lines such as Bairnsdale.

The seats in question offer extremely poor lumbar support, which is further exacerbated if the seat is fixed with a folding table at the rear.

I kindly ask the government to direct Bombardier to improve the seating for the next batch of rolling stock before they are delivered, to ensure the long term comfort, health, and traveler satisfaction for Victorian travelers.

Seats on the existing N Class carriages offer superior comfort and support, and would serve as a suitable benchmark for improvements.

Thank you for taking the time to understand this concern, and I look forward further developments on this issue. As well as to long and comfortable train travel into the future.


If there are any further queries in relation to any of the above, please don’t hesitate to contact me.


Sincerely and in good faith,


CC:

Jacinta Allan MP
Member for Bendigo East 35 Wills St
Bendigo  VIC  3550

also:

Andrew Dudgeon
Managing Director
Bombardier Transportation Australia
Bendigo  VIC  3550
35–45 Frankston-Dandenong Road
Dandenong
Victoria 3175

NEW VLOCITY TRAIN ROLLING STOCK

It is my understanding that the Andrews’ government in Victoria has ordered new VLocity trains from the company you lead in Australia.

While I applaud and welcome the purchases, the seating in existing VLocity rolling stock is incredibly uncomfortable given the long natured duration of the train travel undertaken on the lines they service. This issue would be further exacerbated if the VLocity trains do indeed become the norm on longer lines (such as to Bairnsdale).

The seats in these trains offer extremely poor lumbar support, which is further exacerbated if the seat is fixed with a folding table at the rear. These trains have been in service for many years, and regrettably this issue has not been rectified in this time.

I kindly ask that you investigate and address these concerns as a matter of priority, before any new trains are delivered to the government for service.

Seats on existing N Class carriages offer superior comfort and support, and would serve as a suitable benchmark for improvements.

Thank you for taking the time to understand this concern, and I look forward further developments on this issue. As well as to long and comfortable train travel into the future.


If there are any further queries in relation to any of the above, please don’t hesitate to contact me.


Sincerely and in good faith,
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Let's hope that some of the 39 carriages go towards replacing the peak Geelong loco hauled services as well as adding capacity to those services currently run by 3 car V/Locities. The same could be said for adding capacity to those services currently run by 3 car V/Locities on the other lines as well.

Wishful thinking but hopefully with the other announcements with regards to the Warrnambool line, we'll only see V/Locities to and beyond Geelong before the next election.
SamTheMan79
First priority would be to get the remaining two guts of the peak loco hauleds off the Geelong as they stuff up the whole operation . That should happen with 3 car sets of the 10 sets still to be delivered from existing orders.   Yes other remaining peak period threes on all corridors can go up to 6 cars .  Then with extra cars it is 39 intermediate cars we now need to make up 39 x 4 car sets.  Then we can run peak consists of 4, 6,7 or 8 car sets .  Buying additional 3  car sets above the 75 already on order would be suicidal as  1.  Nine car VL consists are not really practical owing to a number of operational and  signalling constraints . 2. With both  RRL and metro corridors at or near capacity in peak hours there is very limited scope if any to run additional peak V/Line services, and in any case it is much cheaper both in capital cost and operating cost just to lenghthen existing existing VL consists to 7 and 8 cars on selected corridors .  Four car VL sets offer significant reductions in existing operating costs at Off Peak times as 3 or 4 cars can be run, whereas one has to run 6 now if 3 is not enough .

The longer distance V/locity operations to firstly Warrnambool & Albury hinted to by Government , would be a specific new generation Inter City V/Locity in a fixed consist of 5 - 6 cars with two classes, more luggage and bike space and catering.
Such a proposal makes great sense in that it standardizes maintenance and spare parts, avoids introducing another train type to the fleet .  Further the am Down services to say Warrnambool, Swan Hill,  and Bairnsdale could also run an early am Up Commuter trip from Geelong, Bacchus Marsh or Kyneton .  The V/Locity train has prove track record of reliability in over 50,000 kms per set run without fault that results in service disruption/cancellation .  The proposed use of Inter City V/Locity on Warrnambool services is on upgraded track 160 kmh to Geelong and 130kmh beyond offering a 2 hour 55min trip Southern Cross to Warrnambool  , a significant acceleration .
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.
Going by the media releases, the decision has been made.

The 3+ hour journey to Echuca on a V/Locity doesn't seem to get too many complaints.
SamTheMan79
With Echuca track upgrade  Southern Cross - Echuca will be 2 1/2 hours
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
At least the seats on virgin recline for long journeys
x31
Sorry, but I can't let that pass without a comment...

I'm convinced there is A special place in Hell reserved for people who recline their seats on aeroplanes. I'm only a little taller than average, and when some self-centred b@$#@*d in front of me reclines their seat, it confines me even more.

Fortunately, very few people try it these days, but on the very rare occasions that someone tries to recline their seat, I've taken to either politely asking the uncaring person in front of me to "please don't do that" or just chocking my legs in such a way that they can't recline the seat.

I can't afford premium economy or business class and we people travelling cattle class have to be considerate of others. Smile
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

While I applaud and welcome the purchases, the seating in existing VLocity rolling stock is incredibly uncomfortable given the long natured duration of the train travel undertaken on the lines they service. This issue would be further exacerbated if the VLocity trains do indeed become a replacement to the current N Class/Type trains/carriages, that service lines such as Bairnsdale.

cabidass

With respect, this is entirely your personal opinion.

As I wrote earlier, I don't find VLocity seats the least bit uncomfortable. Again I have to compare aeroplane seats that provide bus like pitch, (the space between you and the seat in front of you) and no lumbar support except possibly in international Business class.

Your letter to the Premier will be referred to the Minister for Public Transport via the Ministerial Correspondence unit. There will unlikely be a detailed response from the Premiers office.

Mike.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
A 3+ hour journey to Warrnambool on a Vlocity would be loud and uncomfortable on those seats.

It will be the next generation of VLocity's that operate to Warrnambool.

I've never had an issue with VLocity seats and I travel 800Km a week in them. Fly with Virgin airlines domestically for 2 hours then make a comparison...

The comparison in favour of VLocity seats is stark.

Mike.
The Vinelander
As a consistent Virgin Australia flyer and Velocity (the frequent flyer program, not the train) Gold Status member I take umbrage with your claim.

I can tell you from personal experience that the seat pitch on Virgin planes is greater than Qantas, and even greater compared to Jetstar. Check for yourself (goto Browse Airlines for an alphabetical search and compare B737-800's, the most common type, although Jetstar use A320's. Even so the pitch on Virgin's A320's are the same as their 73H's.): https://www.seatguru.com/

Granted, the seat pitch on a Velocity train will always be greater again, but if you wanted to hang poo on a domestic airline, don't pick on the one which provides the roomiest economy class seating!

Also consider that Velocity cars were loosely promoted as having first class style seating, so if you still want to still make a comparison with the equivalent airline class,....I look forward to the results.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
At least the seats on virgin recline for long journeys
Sorry, but I can't let that pass without a comment...

I'm convinced there is A special place in Hell reserved for people who recline their seats on aeroplanes. I'm only a little taller than average, and when some self-centred b@$#@*d in front of me reclines their seat, it confines me even more.

Fortunately, very few people try it these days, but on the very rare occasions that someone tries to recline their seat, I've taken to either politely asking the uncaring person in front of me to "please don't do that" or just chocking my legs in such a way that they can't recline the seat.

I can't afford premium economy or business class and we people travelling cattle class have to be considerate of others. Smile
Bogong
We're heading a bit off topic but I semi-agree. Mrs and I fly occasionally enough to make it seem normal rather than exciting, and during a flight I might recline the seat slightly, but never all the way. Sometimes a passenger in front of me might do the same but it has never been an issue. I am of average height so if you feel confined maybe you should pick an airline that provides greater legroom? (see my previous post)

Just sayin', there is a massive difference in real terms between a seat pitch of 29" and 31".
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I always travel Virgin domestically and have enough flight miles under my belt to be able to report with full confidence and accuracy on that airlines seating. I also fly that airline due to the perception they offer a better experience.

As I already have a toaster I never bothered with their Velocity frequent miles club and as I was travelling quite extensively particularly during the mining boom, the thought of sitting in one of those lounges with all those orange shirted people was way too much to contemplate.
There's always a nice quiet spot in an airport to wile away the time between flights without needing to utilise the 'exclusive' lounge for their WiFi.

Having said all this, I'm not exactly looking forward to the guaranteed numbum experience of my direct four hour flight to Cairns next month even with the additional purchase of an Exit row reclining seat .

Mike.

*** No offence intended if you happen to be an orange shirted person.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
We're heading a bit off topic but I semi-agree. Mrs and I fly occasionally enough to make it seem normal rather than exciting, and during a flight I might recline the seat slightly, but never all the way. Sometimes a passenger in front of me might do the same but it has never been an issue. I am of average height so if you feel confined maybe you should pick an airline that provides greater legroom? (see my previous post)

Just sayin', there is a massive difference in real terms between a seat pitch of 29" and 31".
DirtyBallast
Didn't they adjust the pitch of the seating in the VLocity carriages a few years back?  Maybe it was between the first batch and the second order.  I recall that they decided to make them more upright.

Ross
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Interesting that the one line that seems to have missed out is the Shepparton Line.  I thought that there was a fair bit of agitation for some track upgrades and a new passing loop to allow more services to run.

Ross
Rossco T

OK, looks like I made the wrong call regarding Shepparton, having now read the subsequent press release that says:

Minister for Public Transport Jacinta Allan joined Member for Northern Victoria Jaclyn Symes and Independent Member for Shepparton Suzanna Sheed at Shepparton Station today to outline the $43.5 million investment funded in the Victorian Budget 2017/18. The upgrade will deliver new train stabling at Shepparton and a new crossing loop near Murchison East to enable more services to and from Shepparton from 2020.
Minister for Public Transport Media Release

So now the question is, why is it that the upgrade to the Shepparton Line is the only one that is not reliant on Federal funding?

Ross
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Frankly everyone I wouldn't be getting too wound up by the term V'Locity.  It's like calling a multitude of different models of Airbus, Airbus!!!!   It's because some of our inwardly looking transport people in Victoria don't know of any other train in the world so they think V'Locity is the be all and end all.

Bombardier and some key players in the industry in Melbourne are acutely aware that the V'Locity "platform" which is the best way to describe it is now well and truly obsolete.  (That's not to say its not a very good product for what it was designed to do).   The next generation of DMU's are already appearing in Europe and I am pretty certain the "long distance" replacements for the N sets etc will come forward with a lot of re-engineering and that's not just about noise.  It'll be about fuel economy and emissions, new on train systems etc, etc.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
We're heading a bit off topic but I semi-agree. Mrs and I fly occasionally enough to make it seem normal rather than exciting, and during a flight I might recline the seat slightly, but never all the way. Sometimes a passenger in front of me might do the same but it has never been an issue. I am of average height so if you feel confined maybe you should pick an airline that provides greater legroom? (see my previous post)

Just sayin', there is a massive difference in real terms between a seat pitch of 29" and 31".
Didn't they adjust the pitch of the seating in the VLocity carriages a few years back?  Maybe it was between the first batch and the second order.  I recall that they decided to make them more upright.

Ross
Rossco T

Seating in V/Locities VL00-VL18 & VL42-VL65 all have the newer type of seating. The seats have a stiffer, firmer foam and are more upright.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

The next generation of DMU's are already appearing in Europe and I am pretty certain the "long distance" replacements for the N sets etc will come forward with a lot of re-engineering and that's not just about noise.  It'll be about fuel economy and emissions, new on train systems etc, etc.
Trainplanner
One can hope.

Remember the noise issues on the original DMUs?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/fast-trains-strike-costly-sound-hitch/2005/10/10/1128796469419.html

"The noise level is similar to that experienced in an older-style "red rattler" train."

Thankfully they fixed it. But I agree they are still a bit noisy. But then a poor N type carriage can be loud as hell....


Pretty scary in reality when you think these trains are only 12 years old, and likely to last another 30....


"The trains, due to begin operating late next year, are expected to offer a considerable advance in passenger comfort and will travel at 160 km/h — 30 km/h faster than current maximum speeds."

If only...
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I just now found out, after probably reading the budget that the state government I think has already funded 2/3 of the RRR project already despite the fighting words that the money all come from the Feds from the Asset Recycling Scheme. Here is part of the budget

Projects funded in 2016-17
Budget Ballarat Line Upgrade(a) 518.0 million
Murray Basin Rail (part)(a) 20.0 million


Projects funded in the 2017-18 Budget
Regional Rail Revival – Gippsland Rail Upgrade(b) 435 million

Projects dependent on receipt of full funding under Commonwealth NPA on Asset Recycling      
Surf Coast Rail Stage 1(c) 110.0 million
Warrnambool Line Upgrade(c) 100.0 million
Bendigo/Echuca Line Upgrade(c) 91.0
Ballarat Line Stage 2 (Ararat and Maryborough)(c)  39.0 million

North East Line (c) 40.0 million
Gippsland Line Upgrade Stage 2 (Avon River Bridge)(c)  95.0 million
Airport Rail Link 10.0 million

Total proposed cost 1 458.0 million

One thing it notes is it states that the ones already funded were from originally estimated NPA on Asset Recycling proceeds, this I reckon is the commitment of 10% of the 9.7 billion funds to go directly into regional infrastructure. Can anyone confirm this? It looks like the current projects such as the Ballarat Line improvement and Murray Basin project seem to be included into the package. The issue is the Government makes it look like the Feds must fund it all although some of the aspects are funded by state? Shepperaton Upgrade is mentioned separately probably to get to that exact 1.5 billion dollar figure.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Yeah.
Someone else had mentioned that the 1.4bn figure was pretty close to the 15% from the asset recycling thing.

Harriet Shing has confirmed the money is allocated to the state vis a vis a letter from the feds.

The only hurdle is the state has to apply for the money I think with a proper business plan or whatever. But all these projects are old projects.

So the feds just have to sign off on it.
As in, its just some paperwork that is par for the course anyway..

Chester was just playing politics by saying they might not fund it. Reality is it would politically damage him if they knocked it back. Labs know this.

It's so badly needed and very popular.

And Chester has been campaigning for fed money for the M1 dupe at Sale

So bit rich to say roads and rail is state issue
..

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