Doncaster to CBD: Special busway may run down middle of Hoddle Street

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 22 Oct 2017 20:03
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Is this worthy of discussion as an alternative to high capacity rail services?

Doncaster to CBD: Special busway may run down middle of Hoddle Street

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The problem with buses running from that distance into the city is the amount of buses it will put into the Melbourne CBD. In Sydney we have the buses from castle hill and the north west from the M2 that just absolutely clog the roads across the bridge and into Wynyard where they also mix with north shore and northern beaches buses.

High capacity rail is a much better option and in this case Melbourne should be looking at what Perth does with rail down the centre of motorways instead of a busway.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
There's no justification for rail to Doncaster.  None.


It is estimated the Doncaster-CBD busway would cost more than $500 million to build, which is 10 to 16 per cent of the estimated $3 billion - $5 billion cost of building Doncaster rail, a project Infrastructure Victoria assessed last year would return just 10 cents for every dollar spent.
There's a problem with people accepting any action in the past, however deluded, as justification for something existing in the present.  Whether it be building a useless railway like Eltham-Hurstbridge, or raising unfeasible rubbish like Doncaster and Rowville rail.  Simply because it was built or mentioned in the past, people hold it as somehow immune from critical analysis.

Because some fool mentioned Dumbcaster rail in the 1969 plan we have to hear about the nonsense in perpetuity - how come those same people aren't whining for the construction of the umpteen freeways in that plan if they believe it was so enlightened.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The Busway should follow the Adelaide example the Obaun system, which has buses run along a dedicated track and go at faster and very safe. Of course a rail line is not viable anymore, but probably was viable back before the Eastern Freeway was built. But a busway is a good idea to make it easier to access Doncaster in the short to medium term.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Are you seriously going to use the obahn as an example. Busways are horrendous blights on society. We have the t-way here in the west of Sydney and it is notoriously useless. They have very few stops and the existing bus services provide a significantly better service. There are 2 lanes for buses on the t-way that gets used once every 20 minutes. Train lines provide a much better option because stations generally provide a place for interchange with local bus services.
  doyle Junior Train Controller

The Obahn in Adelaide is a perfect example of how a bus system should be run
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
There is no justification for Rail to Doncaster perhaps but what about incorporating a line to Doncaster and beyond linking with Hursbridge line?  I am not one to argue when I have not seen all the facts, but I find it hard to believe there is no justification for Doncaster.

What if the US had taken that attitude to landing on the moon?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Are you seriously going to use the obahn as an example. Busways are horrendous blights on society. We have the t-way here in the west of Sydney and it is notoriously useless. They have very few stops and the existing bus services provide a significantly better service. There are 2 lanes for buses on the t-way that gets used once every 20 minutes. Train lines provide a much better option because stations generally provide a place for interchange with local bus services.
simstrain
In Doncaster the bus solution would be more suited than a rail option. Rail option would be too much cost vs the benefits. Busways are used in areas not dense enough for a rail line but enough for a busway. The buses should run like Adelaides busway, they run dedicated on the busway but also go off the busway to serve residential homes. The dedicated tracks and modification on buses are quite cheap to implement and would increase capacity by a factor of 8.

Obviously in the longer term a rail line could be considered, but at the moment that is not viable and a busway would be the best option.
  steve195 Train Controller

Although I am suspicious of Transdev's seemingly altruistic motives here (just as I am with Transurban and the western distributor), I'm struggling to see much downside to this proposal.

Doncaster rail won't be happening in the foreseeable future, pure and simple. This presents a seemingly viable way to get a lot more people into and out of the city efficiently in the short to medium term.

I think the main issue that needs to be addressed is the city end. There is no point in having a bus every few minutes if they all just end up crawling through the city.
  steve195 Train Controller

Ha! Just as I post about Transdev's motivations, this pops up: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/apartments-may-be-built-over-eastern-freeway-with-doncaster-rapid-busway-20170608-gwn2f8.html

In general I think value capture is a good idea, but the government would want to read the fine print very carefully before signing off on this.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

In Doncaster the bus solution would be more suited than a rail option. Rail option would be too much cost vs the benefits. Busways are used in areas not dense enough for a rail line but enough for a busway. The buses should run like Adelaides busway, they run dedicated on the busway but also go off the busway to serve residential homes. The dedicated tracks and modification on buses are quite cheap to implement and would increase capacity by a factor of 8.

Obviously in the longer term a rail line could be considered, but at the moment that is not viable and a busway would be the best option.
James974

A bus is never better then a train over the distances being talked about. For 1 train you need 20 buses and 10 trains worth of buses means 200 buses are going to bring an already clogged hoddle street and Melbourne CBD to even more of a stand still. There is a catchment of at least 500,000 people along the eastern freeway and it should be more then viable to build rail instead of a silly bus service.

Bringing more buses into the Melbourne CBD will only mean you will end up with what we had in George st in Sydnay and still have on the bridge and into Wynyard station. A big bus jam spewing diesel fumes into the air.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Doncaster doesn't need to move 50,000 people per hour - generous studies have demonstrated patronage would barely reach that over an entire day (and that's only after dragging half its patronage off existing lines).  Hence why rail would see a benefit cost ratio is just 0.10.  The entire population of Manningham is only 120k (2016), much of which is closer to existing rail lines than it would be to a Doncaster railway.  

I guess you pulled 500k out of your backside, like most Doncaster advocates who refuse to argue from a basis of reality.
  N463 Locomotive Driver

The Busway should follow the Adelaide example the Obaun system, which has buses run along a dedicated track and go at faster and very safe. Of course a rail line is not viable anymore, but probably was viable back before the Eastern Freeway was built. But a busway is a good idea to make it easier to access Doncaster in the short to medium term.
James974


If enough busses are expected on a single route to dedicate a lane just to them, then surely it would make more sense to lay tram tracks in that space...

Otherwise, the busses could just share a lane with other traffic

N463
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

Ha! Just as I post about Transdev's motivations, this pops up: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/apartments-may-be-built-over-eastern-freeway-with-doncaster-rapid-busway-20170608-gwn2f8.html..............................................................
"steve195"

What happens to placarded loads (dangerous goods)?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Doncaster doesn't need to move 50,000 people per hour - generous studies have demonstrated patronage would barely reach that over an entire day (and that's only after dragging half its patronage off existing lines).  Hence why rail would see a benefit cost ratio is just 0.10.  The entire population of Manningham is only 120k (2016), much of which is closer to existing rail lines than it would be to a Doncaster railway.  

I guess you pulled 500k out of your backside, like most Doncaster advocates who refuse to argue from a basis of reality.
ZH836301
No, but combined with other suburbs around the area, there is surely a need to move more then what buses can handle. If not then get buses going to nearby stations at box hill instead of sending buses into the CBD. Let trains handle cbd traffic and keep buses for more frequent short local services.

Oh and 500,000 isn't just doncaster it is a rough calculation of local council populations both south and north of the eastern freeway that a train line could service along that route.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Nobody uses the buses on the Eastern anyway, took a route 907 from Mitcham to the city on Saturday, a pathetic 30 people used it.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The Busway should follow the Adelaide example the Obaun system, which has buses run along a dedicated track and go at faster and very safe. Of course a rail line is not viable anymore, but probably was viable back before the Eastern Freeway was built. But a busway is a good idea to make it easier to access Doncaster in the short to medium term.


If enough busses are expected on a single route to dedicate a lane just to them, then surely it would make more sense to lay tram tracks in that space...

Otherwise, the busses could just share a lane with other traffic

N463
N463
It depends on the context.

The O-Bahn is great as a solution for the local context where rail (either heavy or light) was ruled out due to the geology and gradients.

It also works in the context of having a whole bunch of routes fanning out from the Paradise and Modbury interchanges, which could also be the case for a busway to Doncaster. A single seat ride is quite attractive and incentivises the use of public transport for the whole journey where forced interchanges incentivise driving.

One point in favour of a busway (whether just a separated lane or an O-Bahn) over a tram where there is an existing freeway is that the majority of the benefits can be obtained by having a single reversible lane/track in the central reservation. Buses would use the dedicated lane in the peak direction only, with buses travelling against the peak direction using the freeway with other traffic.

I would agree completely about the preference for trams if the area being considered had an existing tram network, but it doesn't. Therefore all options need to be on the table.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
With current levels of cancellations on the Albury services I believe the headline is correct, the system is in crisis  but worse, no immediate plans to fix it.
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

Nobody uses the buses on the Eastern anyway, took a route 907 from Mitcham to the city on Saturday, a pathetic 30 people used it.
"stooge spark"

That's about 50% capacity in off-peak times. If you try to board a return bus about 10pm on Saturday night between the CBD and freeway entrance there's a good chance it won't pick you up due overcrowding. Not a good situation for single women left stranded at the bus stop at night, waiting for the next bus in 30 mins.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Doncaster doesn't need to move 50,000 people per hour - generous studies have demonstrated patronage would barely reach that over an entire day (and that's only after dragging half its patronage off existing lines).  Hence why rail would see a benefit cost ratio is just 0.10.  The entire population of Manningham is only 120k (2016), much of which is closer to existing rail lines than it would be to a Doncaster railway.  

I guess you pulled 500k out of your backside, like most Doncaster advocates who refuse to argue from a basis of reality.
No, but combined with other suburbs around the area, there is surely a need to move more then what buses can handle. If not then get buses going to nearby stations at box hill instead of sending buses into the CBD. Let trains handle cbd traffic and keep buses for more frequent short local services.

Oh and 500,000 isn't just doncaster it is a rough calculation of local council populations both south and north of the eastern freeway that a train line could service along that route.
simstrain
Why would you add nearby suburbs like Blackburn to the potential catchment when it already has rail?  List how it is at all possible to come up with a catchment of 500k - shouldn't be hard, such information is readily available using Google.

But yes, frequent, direct buses on the north-south arterials would do more for transport in the area than a railway would, at a fraction of the cost.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Why would you add nearby suburbs like Blackburn to the potential catchment when it already has rail?  List how it is at all possible to come up with a catchment of 500k - shouldn't be hard, such information is readily available using Google.

But yes, frequent, direct buses on the north-south arterials would do more for transport in the area than a railway would, at a fraction of the cost.
ZH836301

I was thinking more about Box hill north, Balwyn north, kew east and not Blackburn.

In any case it would be no different to sections of the Bankstown line and east hills line in Sydney which are only 3 and a bit kilometres from one another at certain places. A new rail line near an existing line isn't a bad investment if it creates more passenger journeys.

Beverly hills station on the east hills line and hurstville station are only 3 km's apart. These are all closer to one another then box hill and doncaster.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Much of Box Hill North is closer to Box Hill than Doncaster.

But in any case, go on, show me how you come up with 500k:

Manningham
Whitehorse
Boroondara

The entirety of these three municipalities doesn't even reach it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If the train line ran down the motorway then box hill north would be closer to the new rail line. But I digress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Manningham - population 117,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Boroondara - population 174,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Whitehorse - population 151,000

total of 442,000
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Why does the busway have to use brand new lanes? Why not convert existing lanes into bus lanes?

Also why not extend the Route 48 tram to Doncaster/Templestowe if you really want rail?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
total of 442,000
simstrain

Wow.  I don't know how much further I need to spell it out.

How about you actually follow the links I've provided and educate yourself on the boundaries of those municipalities.

Vermont, Burwood, Ashburton, Hawthorn, etc. could not be considered part of a Doncaster line catchment.

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