Rationalising Excess Stations

 
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
Some have merit, Hurstbridge line removal is good for the most part, although I reckon you could keep Diamond creek.

Belgrave line is a little more interesting to me, Tecoma gets jack for patronage and should be closed, but I think keeping the rest of the line has merit, Belgrave is an ideal interchange while Upwey could get patronage.

Williamstown line I agree with, useless as all hell most of the time.

The Altona loop is ok for the most part, keeping up with James' idea it could be extended to Point Cook I guess, but closing it is ok too.

Upfield station is a fairly decent interchange for buses, and could give an alternative for the Busy Craigieburn line, I'd say keep it.

Jacana is a good candidate for closure, pretty useless position, same for Aircraft although its a little easier to reach then Williams landing or Laverton, and there's already three less stations on the line so you can keep it.

Glenbervie I'm not too sure about, sane for Fawkner, although middle Footscray is very useless and could be closed with no repercussions.

Rushall can be closed when they straighten out the line, but I disagree with Bell, should stay on Bell street and is far from Preston station.

Westgarth should stay while Dennis gets closed, Westgarth is in a better area compared to Dennis

Don't close both Darebin and Alphington, just closed Darebin and keep Fairfield where it is (since there's no longer a Dennis station)

Chatham I agree with, but not so much on Mont Albert, I reckon its fine.

Willison is stupid get rid of it, close both Hartwell and Burwood and form a new station at Toorak road, and close Alamein.

Overall, most are pretty justified, although a few odd ones here and there.
           As a regular traveller on the Sunbury Line I would say now that the distance between Middle and West Footscray stations has increased since the Regional Rail construction and the rebuilding of West Footscray station  by observation the number of people using Middle Footscray has increased significantly.
            I do not now think Middle footscray should close .

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  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Williamstown trains allow Werribee trains to run express Footscray-Newport in peak. I suppose this could be countered with running more trains to Werribee overall. Newport - Footscray should always be more dense than Laverton-Werribee so having extra services on this section is probably needed.

If you take out Middle Footscray, it is only going to put more pressure onto Footscray Station itself. In an area that is rapidly increasing in density it is not necessarily bad for stations to be that close.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
From these "statistics" and "evidence" found that Aircraft had a relatively stable amount of patronage somewhere between 2011-2013 the patronage dropped significantly. In fact South Kensington and Aircraft switched places. Williams Landing station could be one factor of the loss of patronage which would explain why Laverton took a dive into patronage.
James974
Don't believe in statistics or evidence, is that why you've put them in inverted commas?

Of course Williams Landing is the reason patronage dropped, since Point Cook is no longer relying on Aircraft.  Why aren't the people defending Aircraft asking for a station at Forsayth Rd too?  It's a similar distance, and has a greater catchment - if Aircraft is so desperately needed, then that must be too.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Williamstown trains allow Werribee trains to run express Footscray-Newport in peak. I suppose this could be countered with running more trains to Werribee overall. Newport - Footscray should always be more dense than Laverton-Werribee so having extra services on this section is probably needed.

If you take out Middle Footscray, it is only going to put more pressure onto Footscray Station itself. In an area that is rapidly increasing in density it is not necessarily bad for stations to be that close.
TOQ-1
600 metres Is too close for comfort !
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

From these "statistics" and "evidence" found that Aircraft had a relatively stable amount of patronage somewhere between 2011-2013 the patronage dropped significantly. In fact South Kensington and Aircraft switched places. Williams Landing station could be one factor of the loss of patronage which would explain why Laverton took a dive into patronage.
Don't believe in statistics or evidence, is that why you've put them in inverted commas?

Of course Williams Landing is the reason patronage dropped, since Point Cook is no longer relying on Aircraft.  Why aren't the people defending Aircraft asking for a station at Forsayth Rd too?  It's a similar distance, and has a greater catchment - if Aircraft is so desperately needed, then that must be too.
ZH836301
Aircraft station exists, Forsarth Road station doesn't exist. The existing station can improve its catchment area by redirecting buses and improving the buses to serve Aircraft. This is exactly why station like Williams landing are successful despite not lying in a residential area.

If you were to build a station at Forsayth Road it would require a lot more work and money to get a new station for a better catchment area.

Williamslanding could take in the buses the serve the Western half of Point Cooke and Aircraft can serve buses on the Eastern half of Pointcooke (mostly consisting of Santuary Lakes and SeaBrooke.). This would relieve having buses converging onto the busy Palmers Road corridor and increase patronage onto Aircraft and decrease some on WilliamsLanding since that station will grow further when development is finished. That would not be expensive to reroute buses and adding more buses compared with the current works on Grade Separation.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Having read all the posts in this thread, I must thank the young and fit people who posted them.
Let's remove a lot of stations; the old people who use the the trains need to made fitter, and we'll do it by making them walk further. Hot weather, you say? It will save them from having to pay for saunas. Cold weather? They'll save a mint by not having to go to Mount Buller to freeze.
Public transport means just that - it's for all the public, so can we please quit dreaming up stupid and selfish plans and consider the whole of the public. You may be surprised to learn that disabled, elderly, and infirm people ride on the trains. Your collective pipe dreams are, in effect, saying "to hell with them all."
  stooge spark Train Controller

Valvegear, please do tell how stations like Aircraft and Jacana are of any benefit to those people when they are extremely difficult to get to. Yes public transport is for the public, but it doesn't mean that those few houses on the south side of the railway warrants a station simply because an elderly man happens to live in one of them. Its called saving money, and unfortunately it must be done for the benefit of everyone else.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Valvegear, please do tell how stations like Aircraft and Jacana are of any benefit to those people when they are extremely difficult to get to. Yes public transport is for the public, but it doesn't mean that those few houses on the south side of the railway warrants a station simply because an elderly man happens to live in one of them. Its called saving money, and unfortunately it must be done for the benefit of everyone else.
stooge spark
Williamslanding ain't next to any houses and still gets the patronage. why? Simply has a good bus network to support it. Better coverage and frequency with the bus network to these stations would boost patronage. Unfortunately buses are politically avoided most of the time due to not many use it. Point Cooke buses are popular and could easily serve Aircraft instead of Laverton since Point Cooke Road leads direct to Aircraft station. Some buses either go via Palmers Road. The two bus that goes via Point Cooke Road does a whole indirect route to Laverton instead. If more Point Cooke buses were diverted into Aircraft then the distribution of patronage would be better.

https://static.ptv.vic.gov.au/siteassets/Maps/Localities/PDFs/52_Wyndham_LAM.pdf

Routes 496, 497 and 498 could run instead straight to Aircraft instead direct and then head to Laverton as the terminus.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Williamstown trains allow Werribee trains to run express Footscray-Newport in peak. I suppose this could be countered with running more trains to Werribee overall. Newport - Footscray should always be more dense than Laverton-Werribee so having extra services on this section is probably needed.

If you take out Middle Footscray, it is only going to put more pressure onto Footscray Station itself. In an area that is rapidly increasing in density it is not necessarily bad for stations to be that close.
600 metres Is too close for comfort !
Nightfire
Sure 600m of railway line between them, but if you consider pedestrian access, it's about a 1km walk exit to exit, which is about a 10 minute walk factoring in crossing roads. Someone living halfway between each station has the option of a 5 minute walk in either direction.

Rather than complaining that they're too close, better to take them as an opportunity to increase density in the surrounding area, which is what is happening.
  stooge spark Train Controller

James, Williams Landing gets patronage because it serves a larger area, serving the suburb of the same name, as well as the easternmost parts of Hoppers, and the majority of Point Cook. Aircraft serves a small suburb called Seabrook and a small area of Point cook. And no, buses don't actually get patronage, even if you made the buses run every three minutes, not get stuck in traffic and made the buses reach each terminus within 5 minutes, the general stigma around them would kill them and have them receive no passengers. If you want some form of a statistics the 495 is very direct to get to its terminus (at Yellowbox drive) runs every 40 minutes (which is actually very good for a Saturday frequency) and  serves the Point cook town centre. Judging from some estimations, the bus had about 10 people using it between Williams and the town centre, while going from the opposite direction (this time between Sneydes road and Williams) only had 15 people using it. Those numbers are pathetic, so stop acting like buses actually get used.
  doyle Junior Train Controller

What a silly thread meaningless closures for what reasons....  Unsubscribed jezzzz
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Valvegear, please do tell how stations like Aircraft and Jacana are of any benefit to those people when they are extremely difficult to get to. Yes public transport is for the public, but it doesn't mean that those few houses on the south side of the railway warrants a station simply because an elderly man happens to live in one of them. Its called saving money, and unfortunately it must be done for the benefit of everyone else.
"stooge spark"
I don't recall saying all should be closed, and your choice of Aircraft and Jacana with "one elderly man" is just plain stupid. Where are your figures for these demographics? Short answer: Nowhere.  What is the"benefit to everybody else"? Let's take one of the many plans put up - closing of Burwood and Hartwell to put one station at Toorak Road, and also closing Willison and Alamein. That results in one station between Riversdale and Ashburton, and nothing beyond. Anyone who supports that idea is off his cotton' pickin' mind. You picked two stations; what I have read says a plethora of stations should be closed. I repeat; it means to hell with aged, infirm and handicapped people whom you believe should be inconvenienced for "the benefit of everyone else." Good fascist ideology!
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Valvegear, please do tell how stations like Aircraft and Jacana are of any benefit to those people when they are extremely difficult to get to. Yes public transport is for the public, but it doesn't mean that those few houses on the south side of the railway warrants a station simply because an elderly man happens to live in one of them. Its called saving money, and unfortunately it must be done for the benefit of everyone else.
I don't recall saying all should be closed, and your choice of Aircraft and Jacana with "one elderly man" is just plain stupid. Where are your figures for these demographics? Short answer: Nowhere.  What is the"benefit to everybody else"? Let's take one of the many plans put up - closing of Burwood and Hartwell to put one station at Toorak Road, and also closing Willison and Alamein. That results in one station between Riversdale and Ashburton, and nothing beyond. Anyone who supports that idea is off his cotton' pickin' mind. You picked two stations; what I have read says a plethora of stations should be closed. I repeat; it means to hell with aged, infirm and handicapped people whom you believe should be inconvenienced for "the benefit of everyone else." Good fascist ideology!
Valvegear
Hear, Hear Valvegear! Yep I remember some posters advocating that more high floor B Class trams be built and the handicapped be provided with buses supplied by the council so that they can park their rears on a softer seat!! The selfishness of some is quite breathtaking at times!!

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Stooge Spark I'm obviously talking about peak times when they run at 20 minute frequencies for some routes. Williamslanding and Aircraft both serve Point Cooke. Only difference is Williamslanding also serves Trugania in the North and most people drive to Palmers instead of Point Cooke Road since they're is a bottleneck at the junctions near Aircraft. All the buses from Point Cooke don't go to Aircraft during peak times and the few that do in non peak would carry no passengers as it heads to Laverton first.

Non-peak times obviously have less demand for buses and more for car users. Mostly all the train stations are quiet during Saturdays since they run via the Altona loop and irregular frequencies.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Valvegear, its a shame you still believe that we should keep very useless stations, am I selfish? Of course. You know who else is selfish? The general public. The majority do not care about these people if it means they can get to where they need to go a little faster and keep in mind this is a majority, the majority wants to go a little faster, so why not let them? Also people who want to close stations on the Alamein aren't "losing their mind", it's called making the service better, it's better if we integrate two stations into one and make the service a little better and faster then what we have now. Also I love how you say I'm using a fascist ideology as if anyone cares.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Selfishness - one of the great curses of the world.
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
I wish I had an image people eating popcorn. It has been fascinating watching this thread from the sideline.

The arguments put forward from both angles has been interesting. Very passionate and a great thread.
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
I wish I had an image people eating popcorn. It has been fascinating watching this thread from the sideline.

The arguments put forward from both angles has been interesting. Very passionate and a great thread.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

There is a few stations around melbourne that probably should be closed.   The very small amount using them simply isn't enough when there is viable alternatives.   But the list put up here is very excessive.  

In fact, there are very few stations on urban networks in the whole country that warrant closure.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

Valvegear, its a shame you still believe that we should keep very useless stations, am I selfish? Of course. You know who else is selfish? The general public. The majority do not care about these people if it means they can get to where they need to go a little faster and keep in mind this is a majority, the majority wants to go a little faster, so why not let them? Also people who want to close stations on the Alamein aren't "losing their mind", it's called making the service better, it's better if we integrate two stations into one and make the service a little better and faster then what we have now. Also I love how you say I'm using a fascist ideology as if anyone cares.
stooge spark
Sorry Stooge but I disagree. What about renewing the track to acceptable standards and replacing the old signalling equipment that is currently in place. That could help speed up operations rather than closing stations to save 30 secs on dwell times!!

Michael
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I think that bar the Alamein line, there wouldn't be anywhere that I could think of where stations could be removed (except one or two stations). For instance, Glenbervie and Strathmore both service different areas despite their proximity, Merlynston and Fawkner probably wouldn't happen because of the cemetery. Upper Ferntree Gully to Belgrave would be kept as once trains go out that way to Belgrave they may as well stop at those stations even if one or two people get off each time. I'm sure young families visiting Puffing Billy wouldn't tell the difference on a weekend after stopping 20+ times already. Aircraft would be difficult to close given the rising amount of people living in the area. Merri/Rushall could go when the Metro 2 opens but that is 30 years away so I wouldn't worry about that. By which time patronage would increase anyway at those stations. Williamstown line won't close because of the future Metro 2. Altona loop is surprisingly busy. I was at Altona the other day on a Sunday evening and there were plenty of people spread the length of the platform waiting. Jacana will stay open because of new developments 3 minute's walk away and it would be too far between Broadmeadows and Glenroy to not have a station. Even though Willison, Alamein, etc. are sparsely used, they'll probably stay open anyway because of political sensitivity.

In conclusion, they probably won't close anything because there will be a backlash. Merri/Rushall would be my best candidate to increase line speeds associated with Metro 2. A station between the two on straighter track would do the trick.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Aircraft station exists, Forsarth Road station doesn't exist. The existing station can improve its catchment area by redirecting buses and improving the buses to serve Aircraft. This is exactly why station like Williams landing are successful despite not lying in a residential area.
James974

Keeping Aircraft will cost money, both in the significant costs of rebuilding it come grade separation, along with ongoing staffing, running time, and maintenance costs.


Routes 496, 497 and 498 could run instead straight to Aircraft instead direct and then head to Laverton as the terminus.
James974

And what pray tell is the difference in dropping off passengers at Aircraft rather than Laverton?


Public transport means just that - it's for all the public, so can we please quit dreaming up stupid and selfish plans and consider the whole of the public.
Valvegear

Get your hand off it.  Selfish is keeping a useless station just so a hundred people can walk up to it.


Good fascist ideology!
Valvegear
Invoking Godwin's Law is not an argument.


Sure 600m of railway line between them, but if you consider pedestrian access, it's about a 1km walk exit to exit, which is about a 10 minute walk factoring in crossing roads. Someone living halfway between each station has the option of a 5 minute walk in either direction.
TOQ-1

Keep in mind the worst case scenario is the passenger who lives right next to the station.

If three stations are separated by a 10min walk, closing the middle one adds less than a 5min walk for half the displaced users.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Aircraft station exists, Forsarth Road station doesn't exist. The existing station can improve its catchment area by redirecting buses and improving the buses to serve Aircraft. This is exactly why station like Williams landing are successful despite not lying in a residential area.

Keeping Aircraft will cost money, both in the significant costs of rebuilding it come grade separation, along with ongoing staffing, running time, and maintenance costs.


Routes 496, 497 and 498 could run instead straight to Aircraft instead direct and then head to Laverton as the terminus.

And what pray tell is the difference in dropping off passengers at Aircraft rather than Laverton?
ZH836301
The money is already set aside for grade separation would include a station rebuild in the LXRA program. There is no extra money onto the grade separation unless new there is new infrastructure added.

There is no staffing at aircraft. It doesn't much cost to run the station and maintenance works are very minimal. The only significant thing is the PSOs but thats it.

The difference between dropping at Aircraft because it makes total sense on a map, the Point Cooke buses go over the Point Cooke road bridge and directly interchange at Aircraft much quicker to get onto the trains. I only propose it to continue to Laverton if someone wanted to head to Altona or Laverton.

Currently the buses goes across Central Avenue, Up Merton Street and turns left towards Laverton. It is a much longer route and not at all direct.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Get your hand off it.  Selfish is keeping a useless station just so a hundred people can walk up to it.
"ZH836301"

Which station do you have in mind, and where did your figure of 100 people come from?

Invoking Godwin's Law is not an argument.
"ZH836301"
The paragraph which you have carefully omitted, and which preceded the one line you quoted, constituted a very good argument.
  prwise Locomotive Driver

I wish I had an image people eating popcorn. It has been fascinating watching this thread from the sideline.

The arguments put forward from both angles has been interesting. Very passionate and a great thread.
Big J
Agree - bizarrely have found myself giving ticks to both debating teams. Some participants have argued their cause well

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