Rationalising Excess Stations

 
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The money is already set aside for grade separation would include a station rebuild in the LXRA program. There is no extra money onto the grade separation unless new there is new infrastructure added.
James974
Aviation Rd is only in the planning stage - they'd be stupid not to dump Aircraft station, as the money saved could be put into say, further grade separations, increased parking at Williams Landing or Laverton, or the station to be built at Derrimut Rd to support redevelopment of the DPI site.



The difference between dropping at Aircraft because it makes total sense on a map, the Point Cooke buses go over the Point Cooke road bridge and directly interchange at Aircraft much quicker to get onto the trains. I only propose it to continue to Laverton if someone wanted to head to Altona or Laverton.
James974

Again, how is dropping at Laverton any different for passengers?


Which station do you have in mind, and where did your figure of 100 people come from?
Valvegear

Aircraft.  PTV - avg. weekday entries by access mode 'walked all the way' = 136 (19% of users).

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  stooge spark Train Controller

How did 100 people walk to aircraft?!??!!?! Its in the middle of a bloody for airbase!
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The money is already set aside for grade separation would include a station rebuild in the LXRA program. There is no extra money onto the grade separation unless new there is new infrastructure added.
Aviation Rd is only in the planning stage - they'd be stupid not to dump Aircraft station, as the money saved could be put into say, further grade separations, increased parking at Williams Landing or Laverton, or the station to be built at Derrimut Rd to support redevelopment of the DPI site.



The difference between dropping at Aircraft because it makes total sense on a map, the Point Cooke buses go over the Point Cooke road bridge and directly interchange at Aircraft much quicker to get onto the trains. I only propose it to continue to Laverton if someone wanted to head to Altona or Laverton.

Again, how is dropping at Laverton any different for passengers?


Which station do you have in mind, and where did your figure of 100 people come from?

Aircraft.  PTV - avg. weekday entries by access mode 'walked all the way' = 136 (19% of users).
ZH836301
The money saved would be very little compared to the whole grade separation. The disruption, the methodology and moving power and the rest costs majority. Increase in Parking is a waste of money it would be better spent on upgrading bus routes so they go to Aircraft station.

Most passengers using the Point cooke buses want direct access onto the rail line. It is quicker for it to head to Aircraft than Laverton. So yes it would make a difference since they would use Aircraft instead of Laverton.

And that is only 19% of users. Also I like to know if that data is current, or if it is from a few years ago.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Even if the bus routes were redirected to aircraft, that still wouldn't do anything since no one uses the buses anyway, not to mention Laverton has a larger car park, and there's of course still people who still think zone 2 exists, so they'll use the last zone 1 station.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Even if the bus routes were redirected to aircraft, that still wouldn't do anything since no one uses the buses anyway, not to mention Laverton has a larger car park, and there's of course still people who still think zone 2 exists, so they'll use the last zone 1 station.
stooge spark
You'd be surprised during peak times how many people use the buses coming from Point Cooke.

It's been quite awhile since the zone fares been changed. I thought most of them knew, Aircraft has been used more since the fare changes.

Obviously non peak time for buses are rubbish almost everywhere. Except for some busy routes. Honestly need a huge bus reform to increase the usage of most of our train stations.

Carparks are not an effective use of space to transport people. If they actually made bus travel clean, reliable and frequent it would be much more effective. Obviously too much car dependancy just to get to the stations.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The money saved would be very little compared to the whole grade separation. The disruption, the methodology and moving power and the rest costs majority. Increase in Parking is a waste of money it would be better spent on upgrading bus routes so they go to Aircraft station.
James974

Suggest you compare level crossing removals involving station rebuilds like Springvale, Nunawading, and St Albans at $150-200 million with simple projects without such as Kororoit Creek Rd and Taylors Rd at $50 million.


Most passengers using the Point cooke buses want direct access onto the rail line. It is quicker for it to head to Aircraft than Laverton. So yes it would make a difference since they would use Aircraft instead of Laverton.
James974

The point is, both the bus and train take about 2min from Aircraft to Laverton - there is no difference to someone on a bus.


And that is only 19% of users. Also I like to know if that data is current, or if it is from a few years ago.
James974

It's post-Williams Landing, which is all that matter - the only people who would see any change in journey time from removing Aircraft are the hundred or so that walk to it, and that added time would be insignificant.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The money saved would be very little compared to the whole grade separation. The disruption, the methodology and moving power and the rest costs majority. Increase in Parking is a waste of money it would be better spent on upgrading bus routes so they go to Aircraft station.

Suggest you compare level crossing removals involving station rebuilds like Springvale, Nunawading, and St Albans at $150-200 million with simple projects without such as Kororoit Creek Rd and Taylors Rd at $50 million.


Most passengers using the Point cooke buses want direct access onto the rail line. It is quicker for it to head to Aircraft than Laverton. So yes it would make a difference since they would use Aircraft instead of Laverton.

The point is, both the bus and train take about 2min from Aircraft to Laverton - there is no difference to someone on a bus.


And that is only 19% of users. Also I like to know if that data is current, or if it is from a few years ago.

It's post-Williams Landing, which is all that matter - the only people who would see any change in journey time from removing Aircraft are the hundred or so that walk to it, and that added time would be insignificant.
ZH836301
You are not comparing apples with apples. The cheaper two were road realignments not rail under or rail over grade separations. Rail under or over is much more disruptive and is much bigger scale of works since the gradients are less so the section is much longer.

Stations themselves cost 30 million to construct.

Saving a few minutes could mean missing or able to make the train. Honestly the way buses run they don't line up with trains. A realignment would assure that the trains and buses can meet up correctly.

No the zone changes matter, before people just used Laverton cause it was cheaper even to those that were closer to Aircraft. 100 or so people that are close would have to walk 10 minutes to a station, really...

What about those who drive to the station and can't find parking?? What about the buses that run rubbish and needing of upgrades to run direct. Honestly you are just making the service worse just to save a minute stopping at one stop. Williamslanding and Laverton as already shown in statistics are very busy already being two/three platforms, the station in between is to serve those that are in the area. You can't even walk between Aircraft and Williamslanding direct. Laverton has the worst lifts on the whole network. You really don't consider the disabled don't you.
  kapow Junior Train Controller

@James974
It's Point Cook not Point Cooke and Williams Landing is two words not one
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Who cares about Willison? If the government had the balls they would have turned the entire Alamein line into light rail 30 years ago. With fully accessible, DDA compliant platform stops and high floor, wheelchair-unfriendly A and B class trams just like route 75!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Stations themselves cost 30 million to construct.
James974

It's a simple question, is Aircraft really needed?  Not a chance.

There are no grounds to rebuild it given the hundred other better things the money could be spent on.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Aircraft.  PTV - avg. weekday entries by access mode 'walked all the way' = 136 (19% of users).
ZH836301
So there are over 600 people using aircraft each day then?  
Then that is quite a few and is far from warranting a closure.  

My local station would get closed if that was the threshold for closure.  

Keep in mind that these stations will never be closed due to political backlash.   Traveston station in qld averages less than 1 per day.  (its something like 3 people a week) And no government is strong enough to close it.   It is nice dinky little station though, it nice to look at and even train spot at.
  Altona Loopy Station Master

Stations themselves cost 30 million to construct.

It's a simple question, is Aircraft really needed?  Not a chance.

There are no grounds to rebuild it given the hundred other better things the money could be spent on.
ZH836301

As a local user of PT, it is needed. With the imminent closure of RAAF Williams, that land will ultimately become medium density housing feeding the demand for public transport towards Aircraft. Many thousands will live there.

Re the Altona Loop, I think you will see a jump in patronage with the new July timetable. The service currently is unreliable and  lamentable with regular cancellations and a 22 minute peak service. Many regular commuters now drive to places like Newport and Laverton rather than wait 44 minutes to hop on a train to work. Hence the patronage drop off. Fix the service and people will return.

The loop provides options for Metro and city bound passengers at Laverton when the regular ex Werribee cancellations occur. Many Laverton passengers catch the Altona Loop trains to obtain a seat rather than stand on a packed ex-Werribee, relieving pressure and allowing passengers closer to Melbourne a chance to get on. I do it myself with many others. Don't assume all Laverton patrons use ex-Werribee trains, but that doesn't show in the PTV stats. Passengers from Spotswood to Seddon rely on the ex-Laverton ALoop trains to stop there as the ex-Werribee trains don't in peak times. A 20 minute peak hour ex-Williamstown service wont cut it for the growing patronage at these stations.    

Williamstown as a suburb is rapidly increasing in density, particularly near the Williamstown terminus, hence the increasing patronage there. The Willy line must be kept.

Given the frightening cost to build infrastructure in this country, I can't believe people advocate for its closure.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Other ones that should be made regardless of projects etc:
- Riversdale and Willison should be rationalised into one station and grade separated from the road with an easy tram interchange
- Hartwell and Burwood built over Toorak Rd as one station - the car parking for Burwood station already leads to Toorak Rd anyway

If quadding to Box Hill is a real project:
- All stations Mont Albert to East Camberwell, plus Auburn and Hawthorn built as local two platform stations only, practically can't see any of them being closed
"gb274"

Close down Chatham, move Surrey Hills underneath Union Rd.

East Camberwell will probably remain as long as the the useless trackwork/signalling at Camberwell remains unchanged and keeps blocking up trains at East Camberwell by having an Alamein shuttle parked in platform 1 and a down Lilydale/Belgrave in platform 2 (having used the centre track) instead of 3.

Hawthorn would probably be retained as it is a fair distance from both Burnley and Glenferrie and also connects with the 75 tram which serves Bridge Rd and Jolimont. Auburn may see an increase in passengers, as the area (Hawthorn East) is currently going through the apartment phase as the early 20th century buildings are deteriorating and subsequently being flattened so two or three old 2-bedroom houses side by side become a block of 1- and 2-bedroom low/medium-rise apartments which can house a lot more than four people.

The only way we could have two platforms with three or four tracks is if we actually had express services all day rather than only during peak. Technically the Ringwood group is already run as two tracks off-peak (e.g. at night and on the weekend/public holidays), but that also coincides with having no express services whatsoever, making for an extremely long, slow trip to and from the city. Part of this probably also has to do with the fact that the Glen Waverley line also has two tracks, and most Lilydale/Belgrave trains form Glen Waverley trains when they reach the city, not to mention trains almost always go through the City Loop, yet another bottleneck since the City Loop (including Southern Cross platform 10, and the Burnley Loop portal all the way to Richmond platform 9 if exiting the loop in that direction) are all on single track sections.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Stations themselves cost 30 million to construct.

It's a simple question, is Aircraft really needed?  Not a chance.

There are no grounds to rebuild it given the hundred other better things the money could be spent on.
ZH836301

Like the former Department of Supply munitions manufacturing land at Maribyrnong, the RAAF base which Aircraft is NOT in the middle of as another poster wrote, obviously without ever having travelled there. That land will ultimately become too valuable to remain an administrative centre for the former air force base.

Like the suburb of Williams Landing that has largely been built right on the former air force base runway, the remaining land at the former base will ultimately be re-developed and sold, releasing hundreds of hectares of land for additional housing, adjacent to Aircraft station.

Mike.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Stations themselves cost 30 million to construct.

It's a simple question, is Aircraft really needed?  Not a chance.

There are no grounds to rebuild it given the hundred other better things the money could be spent on.

Like the former Department of Supply munitions manufacturing land at Maribyrnong, the RAAF base which Aircraft is NOT in the middle of as another poster wrote, obviously without ever having travelled there. That land will ultimately become too valuable to remain an administrative centre for the former air force base.

Like the suburb of Williams Landing that has largely been built right on the former air force base runway, the remaining land at the former base will ultimately be re-developed and sold, releasing hundreds of hectares of land for additional housing, adjacent to Aircraft station.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Just to clarify, the Air Force Base at Laverton is still in use to some extent even after the land that was the runways was sold off for development. The Air Force merged the Laverton Base with Point Cook to become one base with two campuses - RAAF Williams: http://www.airforce.gov.au/RAAFBases/Victoria/RAAF-Base-Williams/?RAAF-GKWIoxZ3eHYJpOnu0DJtc9Pbfkj+70z6
  Altona Loopy Station Master

Stations themselves cost 30 million to construct.

It's a simple question, is Aircraft really needed?  Not a chance.

There are no grounds to rebuild it given the hundred other better things the money could be spent on.

Like the former Department of Supply munitions manufacturing land at Maribyrnong, the RAAF base which Aircraft is NOT in the middle of as another poster wrote, obviously without ever having travelled there. That land will ultimately become too valuable to remain an administrative centre for the former air force base.

Like the suburb of Williams Landing that has largely been built right on the former air force base runway, the remaining land at the former base will ultimately be re-developed and sold, releasing hundreds of hectares of land for additional housing, adjacent to Aircraft station.

Mike.
Just to clarify, the Air Force Base at Laverton is still in use to some extent even after the land that was the runways was sold off for development. The Air Force merged the Laverton Base with Point Cook to become one base with two campuses - RAAF Williams: http://www.airforce.gov.au/RAAFBases/Victoria/RAAF-Base-Williams/?RAAF-GKWIoxZ3eHYJpOnu0DJtc9Pbfkj+70z6




jdekorte

Yes, both bases are currently operational, but the Laverton base's operations are limited and my understanding, confirmed by several employees and ex-employee personnel there is that it has a very limited life span and will be closed in the short term.

Enough reason to keep Aircraft due to the inevitability of housing being built there in the short to mid term.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
So are we going to build another four stops beyond Broadmeadows? Another dozen beyond Dandenong?

What's so special about Aircraft that makes it a priority to rebuild against the multitude of other places where stations exceed 2.5km spacing?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
So are we going to build another four stops beyond Broadmeadows? Another dozen beyond Dandenong?

What's so special about Aircraft that makes it a priority to rebuild against the multitude of other places where stations exceed 2.5km spacing?
ZH836301

You're back-pedalling ZH Exclamation

Aircraft is already an operating station with growing patronage. What you are suggesting is simply a 'what-if' scenario.

Welcome back to Railpage btw...Wink
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
It's not a what if - the station will be destroyed when Aviation Rd is grade sepped.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It's not a what if - the station will be destroyed when Aviation Rd is grade sepped.
ZH836301
The LXRA decides this, not yourself. It is a what if scenario.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Aircraft isn't gonna close, no station is since the government is too worried about losing voters. And for the record I have been to Aircraft, the nearest houses on the south side of the freeway, and the others are closer to Laverton, which just leaves the air base.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
It's not a what if - the station will be destroyed when Aviation Rd is grade sepped.
The LXRA decides this, not yourself. It is a what if scenario.
James974
Unless the road is raised/lowered, which it won't be, the station will be demolished - what is so hard to understand about that?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It's not a what if - the station will be destroyed when Aviation Rd is grade sepped.
The LXRA decides this, not yourself. It is a what if scenario.
Unless the road is raised/lowered, which it won't be, the station will be demolished - what is so hard to understand about that?
ZH836301
I do understand that, but they have not ruled out the road options at this current stage. Most likely would result in the demolishing the station but you can't be 100% sure until they finalise the design.
  Altona Loopy Station Master

The major delays this morning at Newport should in itself a major reason the Altona Loop should not be closed.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The major delays this morning at Newport should in itself a major reason the Altona Loop should not be closed.
Altona Loopy
Exactly Smile I had to get through that this morning. Guess what, it was because of some genius thought it be fun to vandalise the signalling. Does this happen anywhere else in the world?

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