Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

The government should move to immediately start an electrification programme covering (as mentioned previously) the Geelong and Ballarat Lines with progressive introduction of EMU at 160 km/h to augment current VLocity services.  We need to start this work now.  The state has plenty of money to get this done.

Excess DMU sets can be moved to other routes away from Geelong.  Bendigo and Pakenham.
bevans
No it doesn't, the state has spent all it's money on existing committments. In fact, it's forward sold some of it's expenditure based on forecast stamp duty revenue which is not guaranteed...

Besides, why? When hybrid diesels that use 50% less fuel are now a reality, as well as hydrogen ones...

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2017/04/alstoms-shunting-loco-prima-h3-receives-final-homologation-from-eba/
http://www.alstom.com/products-services/product-catalogue/rail-systems/trains/products/prima-shunting-and-works-locomotives-/

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/ecotrain-hybrid-dmu-demonstrator-takes-shape
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/ecotrain-hybrid-dmu-demonstrator-takes-shape.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_train

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/db-to-convert-dmus-to-bi-mode-hybrid-trains.html

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2016/09/germany-hydrogen-passenger-train/501575/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/03/22/worlds-first-zero-emissions-hydrogen-train-coming/
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2017/03/alstoms-hydrogen-train-coradia-ilint-first-successful-run-at-80-kmh/

Why would we spend all that money installing overhead infrastructure that will be redundant soon enough, and is subject to vandalism and breaks stranding passengers, and expensive maintenance....

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  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Overhead lines aren't that expensive to maintain.   There is the 450km of wires between Rockhampton and gympie in qld that currently see less than 1 train MOVEMENT a day.  Then the 60km between nambour and gympie which see's an extra 4 x 5car services a day.  So it can't be that expensive to maintain when qld keeps them up despite seeing almost no use.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Overhead lines aren't that expensive to maintain.   There is the 450km of wires between Rockhampton and gympie in qld that currently see less than 1 train MOVEMENT a day.  Then the 60km between nambour and gympie which see's an extra 4 x 5car services a day.  So it can't be that expensive to maintain when qld keeps them up despite seeing almost no use.
tazzer96

It is not possible to maintain 160 km/h in a DMU set especially up hill.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Overhead lines aren't that expensive to maintain.  
tazzer96
Fair enough.

I raised three points. You've countered 1. Smile
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Don't forget that we are talking Queensland here which may not be a good example of efficiency and economy.?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
When you only pay twice the weekly fare of Box Hill to travel five times the distance to Geelong it's probably best not suggesting you prop up other services.
I disagree. There is a strong economic case for cross-subsidy. The NBN (and Telecom and SEC before it) utilised this methodology for very good reason. By adding cents to many people, you can avoid forcing a few to pay many dollars.

You should have seen the uproar in the NBN threads a few years back when city people realised that they would be paying say 50cents - to ensure the farmers who provide their food could get internet... It was nonsensical.


Exactly. The current fare structure gives out so much free travel it's no wonder the government subsidies are so high.

Go distance-based and eliminate the early-bird fare and your cost recovery will increase markedly.

Sometimes I think people have very short memories. We had a system like that. We had three zones just a short while ago. While I'm happy for any review to be undertaken to eliminate any anomalies, overall the system is designed pretty well.

Affordable Public transport is a necessary underpinning facet of every stable democracy. It's somewhat socialistic in nature, just like the SEC, and Telecom, and PMG before it... 116 years of stability is a pretty good record.

-------

Here's a bit of history from just a decade ago that I'm sure you've all forgotten...

"FORMER premier Jeff Kennett has described his decision not to push for a "single coin" public transport ticket system as his biggest regret in public life.

"He said it would have been either a $1 or $2 coin and commuters would have been able to travel as far or for as long on the train or tram as they liked. "Easy to manage, consumer friendly, you just drop the coin in the box," he said. It would have been a coin and turnstile system.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/jeffs-gutdriven-transport-solution/2006/03/04/1141191889576.html
cabidass
You are aware that you can go distance-based and still have cheap fares, right?

And if you make a profit, you can go even cheaper.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

You are aware that you can go distance-based and still have cheap fares, right?
railblogger
You are aware that you can make a point without block quoting existing text, right?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
When you only pay twice the weekly fare of Box Hill to travel five times the distance to Geelong it's probably best not suggesting you prop up other services.
And you pay more to go from Southern Cross to Flinders St then Frankston to Lara. It's probably best they fix the way fares are collected before suggesting which services are profitable and which ones are not.
Exactly. The current fare structure gives out so much free travel it's no wonder the government subsidies are so high.

Go distance-based and eliminate the early-bird fare and your cost recovery will increase markedly.
railblogger

...and prejudice against those people who choose to live outside the greater metropolitan area and who assist the government by supporting decentralisation and in return would be penalised by having to pay higher fares.

Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.

Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.

Mike.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
When you only pay twice the weekly fare of Box Hill to travel five times the distance to Geelong it's probably best not suggesting you prop up other services.
And you pay more to go from Southern Cross to Flinders St then Frankston to Lara. It's probably best they fix the way fares are collected before suggesting which services are profitable and which ones are not.
Exactly. The current fare structure gives out so much free travel it's no wonder the government subsidies are so high.

Go distance-based and eliminate the early-bird fare and your cost recovery will increase markedly.

...and prejudice against those people who choose to live outside the greater metropolitan area and who assist the government by supporting decentralisation and in return would be penalised by having to pay higher fares.

Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.

Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Again, no. I did the maths and found that if you charge 10 cents/kilometre, you would still make a good income on cheap fares. (I assumed a full 6-car Vlocity running from Bendigo to Melbourne. The total income came to nearly $7,000 and the fare came to $16.20 one-way)
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
You're only ever going to get a full 6VL to Bendigo once or twice a day. Most services are 50% empty at Kyneton. I would suggest even the Flagship is made up of a significant number of Castlemaine residents.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.
Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.
Vinelander
Nice try.  First class on rail in Britain is nothing like that of Vline - the standard fare is $100 (63.70GBP).

Which is hardly unreasonable for:

a/ A private company that doesn't run at a loss

b/ A comparable journey by car at UK fuel prices and avg mileage would be 550km*12L/100km*1.16GBP/L = $130
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.
Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.
Nice try.  First class on rail in Britain is nothing like that of Vline - the standard fare is $100 (63.70GBP).

Which is hardly unreasonable for:

a/ A private company that doesn't run at a loss

b/ A comparable journey by car at UK fuel prices and avg mileage would be 550km*12L/100km*1.16GBP/L = $130
ZH836301

Your'e splitting hairs ZH and you know it Exclamation

You quote some imaginary £100 fare that's available if one travels on GWR (Great Western Railway) trains at a time of their choosing and certainly NOT during peak times or Sunday afternoons.

V/Line as a far more user friendly carrier has no such restrictions and doesn't discriminate between fares that are purchased 5 minutes or 5 weeks before travel. Moreover 1st Class is 1st Class...all V/Line doesn't offer for 'free' like GWR is the coffee and a biscuit.

UK pax are being screwed over and your alternative to the exorbitant train fares is to drive instead Question

You offered a very poor reply to a scenario I knew you'd respond to...now let's get back to the Geelong line which is what this thread is about.

Mike.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You're only ever going to get a full 6VL to Bendigo once or twice a day. Most services are 50% empty at Kyneton. I would suggest even the Flagship is made up of a significant number of Castlemaine residents.
TOQ-1
I realised the actual income would be less.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
This post has been edited by the Railpage Moderators.

After editing this post to get rid of the snide remarks that I consider belittling another, there isn't much left.  One could have  argued the point a lot better.

Regards,
David Head,
Moderator
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Easy guys, or else I get nasty.
Hint, be nice, talk about the topic not the poster.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

ZH, something I've been pondering over.

Why should Geelong be downgraded to another Metro service, when it could be used as an example of how we can upgrade the Dandenong and Ringwood Corridors to become high speed, express quad rail corridors?
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.
Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.
Nice try.  First class on rail in Britain is nothing like that of Vline - the standard fare is $100 (63.70GBP).

Which is hardly unreasonable for:

a/ A private company that doesn't run at a loss

b/ A comparable journey by car at UK fuel prices and avg mileage would be 550km*12L/100km*1.16GBP/L = $130
ZH836301

Longer distance rail services in Britain are nothing like V/Line.  They have Wifi better food and drink and better seats and they are not velocity crap.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange


The new Geelong metro line (stops all stations)
  • 90 km of electrification on existing Geelong Route via RRL (500 million+ )
  • 7 km of Quad between Sunshine and Deerpark + grade separations (600 million)
  • Additional 3 stations on RRL (250 million)
  • Upgrade track needing repairing (200 million+ )
  • Werribee line extension to Wyndham vale (500 million)
  • New rolling stock 30-35 trains and stabling facility (1 billion) *

Note: *The existing VLocity trains can be used onto the Warrnambool line, and other lines needing more services. Older rolling stock on other lines can be replaced with these trains. Only older rolling stock will be out of service

Geelong High speed rail (express route, stops at Avalon airport, Werribee and Southern Cross)**
  • New double tracks from Geelong to Newport with a divert to Avalon airport
  • High speed trains (number of trains to be investigated**)
  • New stations at Avalon airport
  • Rebuild Werribee station for interchange
  • Metro 2 tunnel (four tracks- one set for Werribee, the other set for the High speed trains)
  • New stabling yard built

Note; **Planning study needs to investigate costs and benefits of such a project
James974
What Geelong railway services need is the following:

  The Geelong railway service really needs is a frequent service more than it needs a high-speed rail service.
   The role of the Geelong railway service should be reducing the pressure of the Princess Freeway, especially in peak hour.

   Here is my solution:
  •    Electrification to Geelong via RRL and extension of the Werribee line
  • Build high capacity trains like the Interurban Multiple Unit (IMU160) like they have on Gold Coast Line
    -Instead of building High-Capacity trains for V/Line they can build these high capacity trains for Geelong service and use existing Geelong rolling stock for other V/Line services*
  •    Extend zone 1 and 2 fares to end of the Geelong line

  • Future ideas-
  • Geelong to Traralgon service Via Flinders Street.     *   - Note in  the PTV plans: future Geelong services go to South Yarra and my idea just extends this to Traralgon



    *
    High capacity next generation regional trains
    The 2016-17 State Budget includes $10 million in development funding for High-Capacity Next Generation Regional Rolling Stock to cater for the future needs of regional Victoria.

    A next generation high capacity regional train will be commissioned in the coming years to cater for strong patronage growth and provide new peak services. - https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/projects/rail-projects/new-trains/
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Oh no not more Geelong..................................there really are other cities in Victoria.................
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.
Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.
Nice try.  First class on rail in Britain is nothing like that of Vline - the standard fare is $100 (63.70GBP).

Which is hardly unreasonable for:

a/ A private company that doesn't run at a loss

b/ A comparable journey by car at UK fuel prices and avg mileage would be 550km*12L/100km*1.16GBP/L = $130

Longer distance rail services in Britain are nothing like V/Line.  They have Wifi better food and drink and better seats and they are not velocity crap.
x31
The remark about 'VLocity crap' is a personal assessment of a train which operates up to 200 km from Melbourne.

It would never stand an assessment of being a true fact.

Moreover, HST's are well over 30 years old and are better described as being crap.

The addition of Wi-Fi, a free biscuit and ordinary coffee doesn't justify a 500% higher fare than V/Line.

Mike.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.
Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.
Nice try.  First class on rail in Britain is nothing like that of Vline - the standard fare is $100 (63.70GBP).

Which is hardly unreasonable for:

a/ A private company that doesn't run at a loss

b/ A comparable journey by car at UK fuel prices and avg mileage would be 550km*12L/100km*1.16GBP/L = $130

Longer distance rail services in Britain are nothing like V/Line.  They have Wifi better food and drink and better seats and they are not velocity crap.
The remark about 'VLocity crap' is a personal assessment of a train which operates up to 200 km from Melbourne.

It would never stand an assessment of being a true fact.

Moreover, HST's are well over 30 years old and are better described as being crap.

The addition of Wi-Fi, a free biscuit and ordinary coffee doesn't justify a 500% higher fare than V/Line.

Mike.
The Vinelander
200km from Melbourne you have basically towns or very small cities spaced 50km apart as a minimum with not alot inbetween. Most adults own their own car each and most with more than a 2L engine.

2000km from London you still have a dense population and the odd city with more than a few million. Many still have one car per family and many cars are the size of a Suzuki swift.

Hardly comparable.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Fortunately we are not living in England with its outrageously expensive PT fares, something that's suggested by the economic rationalists and bean counters we have posting in these pages.
Below is a comparison of two fares with similar distances adjusted to $AU currency:

Melbourne to Mildura - First Class one way - $59.80.

Penzance to London - First Class one way - $346.02.
Nice try.  First class on rail in Britain is nothing like that of Vline - the standard fare is $100 (63.70GBP).

Which is hardly unreasonable for:

a/ A private company that doesn't run at a loss

b/ A comparable journey by car at UK fuel prices and avg mileage would be 550km*12L/100km*1.16GBP/L = $130

Longer distance rail services in Britain are nothing like V/Line.  They have Wifi better food and drink and better seats and they are not velocity crap.
The remark about 'VLocity crap' is a personal assessment of a train which operates up to 200 km from Melbourne.

It would never stand an assessment of being a true fact.

Moreover, HST's are well over 30 years old and are better described as being crap.

The addition of Wi-Fi, a free biscuit and ordinary coffee doesn't justify a 500% higher fare than V/Line.

Mike.
The Vinelander
200km from Melbourne you have basically towns or very small cities spaced 50km apart as a minimum with not alot inbetween. Most adults own their own car each and most with more than a 2L engine.

2000km from London you still have a dense population and the odd city with more than a few million. Many still have one car per family and many cars are the size of a Suzuki swift.

Hardly comparable.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

 The Geelong railway service really needs is a frequent service more than it needs a high-speed rail service.
   
  • -Instead of building High-Capacity trains for V/Line they can build these high capacity trains for Geelong service and use existing Geelong rolling stock for other V/Line services*

  • Geelong to Traralgon service Via Flinders Street.     *   - Note in  the PTV plans: future Geelong services go to South Yarra and my idea just extends this to Traralgon

    *
    High capacity next generation regional trains
    The 2016-17 State Budget includes $10 million in development funding for High-Capacity Next Generation Regional Rolling Stock to cater for the future needs of regional Victoria.

    A next generation high capacity regional train will be commissioned in the coming years to cater for strong patronage growth and provide new peak services. - https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/projects/rail-projects/new-trains/
melbtrip

This last paragraph is key. At the moment, the funding is really just for throwing around a few ideas as to what is needed. $10million wont go far in this regard. It's basically design and engineering. But that doesn't mean anything will get purchased. While I would love the idea of new high capacity rolling stock for Vline lines, it's nothing that can't be remedied by running more services. Which means, extending the passing loops or duplication.

There is nothing to guarantee the future government will purchase the rolling stock, in the same way that having a $1mil competition to design Flinders street station doesn't mean it will be built...

As to the idea from Geelong to T'gon, It's an interesting concept. I've never heard it debated before. Would be great if many of the services just continued on to the next big town, be it Geelong, Bendigo, or Ballarat. While a stop over period would be necessary to fill up water or whatever, it would be so much better than having to get off a train and onto the next....

Probably a bit idealistic though. But feasible if Geelong didn't get electrified...
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

 The Geelong railway service really needs is a frequent service more than it needs a high-speed rail service.
   
  • -Instead of building High-Capacity trains for V/Line they can build these high capacity trains for Geelong service and use existing Geelong rolling stock for other V/Line services*

  • Geelong to Traralgon service Via Flinders Street.     *   - Note in  the PTV plans: future Geelong services go to South Yarra and my idea just extends this to Traralgon

    *
    High capacity next generation regional trains
    The 2016-17 State Budget includes $10 million in development funding for High-Capacity Next Generation Regional Rolling Stock to cater for the future needs of regional Victoria.

    A next generation high capacity regional train will be commissioned in the coming years to cater for strong patronage growth and provide new peak services. - https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/projects/rail-projects/new-trains/

This last paragraph is key. At the moment, the funding is really just for throwing around a few ideas as to what is needed. $10million wont go far in this regard. It's basically design and engineering. But that doesn't mean anything will get purchased. While I would love the idea of new high capacity rolling stock for Vline lines, it's nothing that can't be remedied by running more services. Which means, extending the passing loops or duplication.

There is nothing to guarantee the future government will purchase the rolling stock, in the same way that having a $1mil competition to design Flinders street station doesn't mean it will be built...

As to the idea from Geelong to T'gon, It's an interesting concept. I've never heard it debated before. Would be great if many of the services just continued on to the next big town, be it Geelong, Bendigo, or Ballarat. While a stop over period would be necessary to fill up water or whatever, it would be so much better than having to get off a train and onto the next....

Probably a bit idealistic though. But feasible if Geelong didn't get electrified...
cabidass
If one of Bendigo or Ballarat were on the eastern side of Melbourne, through running VLine services would be feasible, but we have Geelong on a 20 minute off peak frequency, and Traralgon on a 40min peak frequency. Sure some services could be through routed, but no where near all of them, or even 50%
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Yeah I was getting that sentiment.

A boy can dream... Very Happy

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