Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Electrification doesn't have to mean metro. If Adelaide can put panto's onto a vlocity then why can't vline. Vline should convert all non metro lines to the north, west and south west to SG and electrify to Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo and Seymour.
simstrain

Can I ask what would the benefit be of running a diesel Vlocity vs an electric one?

Do the electric ones pull the chicks?


For the sake of entertaining the argument, Adelaide didn't put the Pantos on the Vlocities. Bombardier did. While the A-City 4000s are based on the Vlocity "shell", I honestly don't know how similar they would be in reality. I know the fit out in Adelaide's case is totally different to the Vic Vlos. As to the wheels/bogies, motors, running gear, etc. Well I don't know how similar it would be to the Vlos, nor how similar it would be to other electric metro rolling stock in Melbourne.

And again, what would the benefit be?

(Also bear in mind that Adelaide's electrification plans have pretty much hit the skids)


Just on a side note, the fact that you are suggesting electrification to Ballarat, Bendigo, and Seymour is laughable. We had electrification to Latrobe Valley for the coal trains. And despite still being the state hub of electricity supply, they ripped them all up because of maintenance cost and lack of need.

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The same equipment, configuration, maintenance regime and operation is not necessarily the optimum arrangement for every service.

Yes. I'd alluded to that. So what pray tell would be the optimum outcome then?

At the moment we're discussing the electrification of Geelong. Of which I presume will come with time once the west fills out a bit. We've already agreed that double-decker carriages are likely not it.

The rail network will be shortly filled with:

  • Sprinters
  • X'trapolis
  • High Capacity X'trapolis
  • Comeng
  • Vlocity
  • Long Haul Vlocity
  • N-class - H
  • N-class - N


How much more diversified do you think it needs to be?
cabidass
I am not advocating diversification for the sake of it, rather the opposite to the extent of having rolling stock which is 'fit for purpose'. By 'fit for purpose' I mean equipment which is suited to the task from both a passenger/freight and owner's perspective.

Taking your list of current and proposed rolling stock, (plus Siemens sparks), both types of Xtraps, Siemens and Comengs in suitable consists fulfill the same task including Geelong when/if the route is 1,500V DC. One group of EMU would therefore meet this task for better or for worse.

Sprinters could run short interurbans like Stony Point and Bacchus Marsh etc whilst Vlocitys could run Ballarat, Seymour, Echuca and Seymour Intercitys. All should be in suitable consist sizes for the task on the day.

Basically, the H sets are rubbish in the short term whilst the N sets should be upgraded to run Albury, Warrnambool, Swan Hill and Mildura (haha).

Longer term all we need are:

  • One class of EMUs in suitable consists.
  • One class of Vlocitys in suitable consists.
  • Suitable longer haul rolling stock.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Yeah I think we're arguing the same thing.

I had forgotten the Siemens Nexas - There are 72 sets. My point is what is the point of diversifying further? I don't see a need.

From a Geelong POV, I wouldn't think it mattered whether the trains were lecky, or DMU. As long as one can get a seat when one wants to get to and from Melbourne.

So the better argument would be to increase services, as opposed to electrification, at this point.

Taking a quick digression to the A-City 4000, it seems they are limited to 110km...

I agree that inter-urban trains will be of benefit. I reckon a sprinter set could run to and fro between T'gon and Warragul. And would get some use.

It's my understanding that with this federal funding allocated, the state government has/will order "long haul" Vlocities to run along side the N sets. At least to Bairnsdale. But I presume as they roll out they will go to Bendigo and Ballarat too. As they are built carriage by carriage, the N's and H's will inevitably be retired. But I dare say that's still a decade off. As the current goal is to increase services. So it will take time before there are enough carriages built to start retiring the others in that instance.

Andrews has also committed some money for investigation into "high capacity" Vlocities also. They are further down the line. And likely won't get ordered for at least 5-10 years as the existing Vlocity orders wind up.

We have a very Vlocity future in Vic. I don't see that as a bad thing.

As to electric trains to Geelong, well pray for a bit more development around Little River, and it will come eventually.

But I think increased services should be the first goal.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

The reason why Geelong will become electrified is because the cost of running 6 car v/lo's at least every 20 minutes will become prohibitively expensive in comparison to if the the line were to become electrified.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Well reading up on the RRL, it suggests the line will become the electrified Grovedale to South Yarra line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Rail_Link

I don't know if that is still relevant.

But presuming it is, you're looking at a timeline of 2032 or after where they see it as being viable. Maybe sooner if patronage continues to increase at current rates.


Again, it all depends on how decentralisation effects things. If more people are able to live and work in the satellite and regional centres, there there is less need to commute everyday.

When we get close to 20 minute scheduling, I'm sure the government will be looking at it.


On a side note how did the RRL affect travel times? Did things improve? By how much? And have they slipped in recent times?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Sooner or later someone will wake up that you cannot simply increase services on the Geelong line for ever.

Much as Geelong is a sacred cow there is a finite number of paths available and train and train/platform lengths cannot be extended for ever either. The Geelong God given right to a seat cannot be sustained indefinitely especially to the detriment of the remainder of the Vline network and its long suffering passengers.

There are also many suburban passengers who often spend longer and in far less comfort on a suburban train than Geelong commuters do on their services to be considered.

Higher capacity (double deck) rolling stock dedicated to Geelong may prove advantageous in the future.

Sorry, silly me, double deckers are a filthy NSW invention (along with standard gauge) and must be resisted in any and every way here in Victoria. Rolling Eyes

PS: There are only 36 Siemens trains rather than the 72 that you mention. The 72 was political spin at the time to fool the public into believing that twice as many trains had been ordered as there really were.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

No one says Geelong has a god given right to dedicated seats, but it can't be given the disadvantages of both VLine and Metro services. With the amount of services now (and from August timetable there is the equivalent of a 3 car V/Lo every 20 minutes 7 days a week) surely the question should be asked for how long can services be added, or trains lengthened before it becomes an expensive exercise when you consider the initial outlay of electrifying the line in comparison to the higher cost of providing a diesel service.

If it were up to me, I would be looking at American style double deck Electric loco with the ability to lengthen and shorten trains.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The same equipment, configuration, maintenance regime and operation is not necessarily the optimum arrangement for every service.

Yes. I'd alluded to that. So what pray tell would be the optimum outcome then?

At the moment we're discussing the electrification of Geelong. Of which I presume will come with time once the west fills out a bit. We've already agreed that double-decker carriages are likely not it.

The rail network will be shortly filled with:

  • Sprinters
  • X'trapolis
  • High Capacity X'trapolis
  • Comeng
  • Vlocity
  • Long Haul Vlocity
  • N-class - H
  • N-class - N


How much more diversified do you think it needs to be?
cabidass

  • Sprinters
  • N-class - H
  • N-class - N
  • Comeng

Are approaching end of life and this will definitely be a much shorter list in 10 years time.

Mike.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Sprinters
1993 = 24 years young - 34 in ten years - due for a refurb/upgade
N-class - H
1984 = 34 years since refurb - Agreed, old. That's why they're building more Vlocities and "long haul" Vlocities
N-class - N
1981 - Agreed, old. But young by similar S type carriages standards - That's why they're building the "long haul" Vlocities
Comeng
1981 - Agreed, old. That's why they're building X'Trapolis and High Capacity X'trapolis.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

The Geelong God given right to a seat cannot be sustained indefinitely especially to the detriment of the remainder of the Vline network and its long suffering passengers
YM-Mundrabilla
You sure as hell won't be guaranteed a seat if they go electric. We already know that they have removed seats from existing rolling stock, and the new High Capacity X'trapolis will have the same amount of seats as the standard sized ones...

Sorry, silly me, double deckers are a filthy NSW invention (along with standard gauge) and must be resisted in any and every way here in Victoria.
YM-Mundrabilla
Sorry, silly me, Geelong should just get it's own special trains because of foam....?

PS: There are only 36 Siemens trains rather than the 72 that you mention.
YM-Mundrabilla
Fair enough. I couldn't say for sure. Was using wiki as a quick reference and should that be incorrect, I'll take it on the chin. The chin without foam.

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2068428.htm#2068428
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

surely the question should be asked for how long can services be added, or trains lengthened before it becomes an expensive exercise when you consider the initial outlay of electrifying the line in comparison to the higher cost of providing a diesel service.
John.Z
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2068442.htm#2068442

I'm not arguing this point. What I'm suggesting is that there are bean counters in every single department. So as this new timetable gets a run in, and they start evaluating with the punch cards, they'll decide what to do next. So should over a 12-18 month run, just in time for the election, someone might decide if it is an economic and politically expedient course of action to electrify the line.

What I'd suggest, is rather than wrangle on forums, get a bit of hard data. And start campaigning your local member, both the leader of the Labor party and the opposition, and the transport minister.

If it stacks up, there is no reason why they wouldn't consider it. Sans having spent all the money and the property market collapsing. Which in that case I'd get real used to the scenery at Geelong.

So rally up the troops and start campaigning.
On your marks, get set.... GO!
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

I wonder if they could build a single carriage DERM out of a Vlocity.....
Or an articulated one...

*thinking emoji*
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
You keep referring to High Capacity X'Trapolis.

The X'Trapolis are an Alstom build, and beyond minor cosmetic changes have been the same since their first delivery. Nice and cheap to keep ordering.

The next generation High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMTs) are a new design and will be built by Evolution Rail (mostly) in Newport which comprises Downer, CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles, and the Pleanry Group. Nothing to do with Alstom or X'Traps.


RE: DERMS

You probably could have a Single Carriage VLocity with a cab at each end, but why would you? Most of V/Line's growth is in the suburban and commuter areas, which requires more carriages with more internal space. 3 and 4 car units that combine to 6-9 car units are what is needed. A second cab takes up space and money that can go towards seats.

Single carriage units would only be useful to Stony Point, maybe as shuttles to Ararat, Maryborough and Echuca if they provided a far cheaper, more effective service. Given the issue with newer stock not activating level crossings when comprised of fewer carriages, this will never happen.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

You keep referring to High Capacity X'Trapolis.
TOQ-1

Touche. I got muddled. It's the images of the doors in the graphics that has my mind in train soup.

I think.. the door spacings have to be the same as the X'traps, to allow for pedestrian gates on the new platforms in the new tunnel (and possibly city loop). That's one reason why I think they are going to be dedicated to the Pakenham/Canny line initially. With the Siemens run on stations/services where that won't matter. Ie, one's that don't go through the loop.

RE: DERMS You probably could have a Single Carriage VLocity with a cab at each end, but why would you?
For new inter-urban services.

Someone suggested the Sprinters were aging. And should there come a time where smaller scale transport was needed, below a 2 car velocity, well by some logic it makes sense to share the components with the Vlocities with any new rolling stock order.

I'm digressing from this post, however should decentralisation gain some traction over the next 10 years, a Warragul to T'gon service I'm sure would be of benefit. A sprinter would service this nicely. But should they get tinseled, we'll a Vlo sort of makes sense.

Agreed that Bendigo-Maryborough-Ballarat-Shep services may too make sense. I don't know enough about these lines to say any more.

I guess the driver for this would be that if less people are going to Melbourne, and more are staying in the regions, there would be less need for long services to the city, and room for shuttles inbetween that only go part of the way.

*thinking emoji*

Granted a 2 car Vlocity may service many of these. I guess it depends on the expected numbers.

With regards to not activating level crossings, part of the budget allocation is to address this issue. At least on the Gippy line. New trigger systems are to be installed. 10 years is a long time to UG other parts of the network...

----------

I must note how I love how are there are these pie in the sky proposals, and people cry "we could do it if we just have the political will". And then when there are simple solutions to niggly problems, people get all cynical and somehow think that you'd need to move heaven and earth to implement them.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
You keep referring to High Capacity X'Trapolis.

Touche. I got muddled. It's the images of the doors in the graphics that has my mind in train soup.

I think.. the door spacings have to be the same as the X'traps, to allow for pedestrian gates on the new platforms in the new tunnel (and possibly city loop). That's one reason why I think they are going to be dedicated to the Pakenham/Canny line initially. With the Siemens run on stations/services where that won't matter. Ie, one's that don't go through the loop.
cabidass

X'Traps will not be running through the new Tunnels. The HCMTs will be fully delivered by 2023, well before the Tunnel opens meaning Siemens and Comengs will be long gone from the Cranbourne, Pakenham and probably Sunbury Lines before the tunnel opens.

The platform screen doors will be designed for the HCMTs. The City Loop wont be getting any until they move to greater stock segregation.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

May I ask how RRL services are running out of paths. How can 2 brand spanking new RRL lines result in not allowing an expansion of services. Is vline that incompetent that it can't get 5 trains an hour on the RRL?

Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo shouldn't have any issues with getting 4 x 6, 8 or 9 car trains an hour each. How can the RRL not handle at least 12 trains an hour in peak direction?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
May I ask how RRL services are running out of paths. How can 2 brand spanking new RRL lines result in not allowing an expansion of services. Is vline that incompetent that it can't get 5 trains an hour on the RRL?

Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo shouldn't have any issues with getting 4 x 6, 8 or 9 car trains an hour each. How can the RRL not handle at least 12 trains an hour in peak direction?
simstrain
Low tech signaling ! (penny pinching)
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
There are 31 trains departing Southern Cross on the RRL between 16:00 and 18:00, with 16 of these between 17:00 and 18:00. These are

Geelong - 13 Trains, 3 of which are short hauls

Ballarat - 12 Trains, 6 of which are short hauls

Bendigo - 6 Trains, 1 of which is a short haul.


Limiting factors on the RRL include
  • Flat junctions to access Platforms at Southern Cross
  • Flat Junctions at Spion Kop, Sunshine and Deer Park West
  • The use of P Class Push-Pull H Sets in the peak which (most of those 6 Bacchus Marsh/Meltons would be H Sets) which are far slower with slower acceleration than the Vlocities. In the past Conductors have also had to perform extra checks to make sure doors have successfully locked, not sure if that is still the case.

Hopefully with the extra V/Locities being ordered, the H Sets will be able to be phased out on the RRL lines, and be used just for Seymour runs.


Aside from that, it's just poor management in and around Southern Cross. Occasionally a freight train sits on the bypass track at about 16:00 and blocks access to the North Melbourne yards. Unless V/Line have finally worked that out, some trains don't turn up to their platforms until 5-10 minutes after their scheduled departure times.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A couple of points,

Its not possible to get a train from Geelong to Southern Cross in 30 minutes using the existing network, its simply to far and to much of the existing track has speed limts.

Be VERY wary of a line running unique rolling stock, look at the Albury line to see how well that works.

woodford
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

X'Traps will not be running through the new Tunnels.
TOQ-1

That does seem to make some sense.

I'm hanging out for greater detail on the HCMTs. I hope in that case the doors are much more like the siemens, that the X'traps. When you walk into a Nexus, you are not cramped and you feel like you're walking into a palace.

Walk into an X'trap, you feel like you're ducking and weaving between other punters....
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
X'Traps will not be running through the new Tunnels.

That does seem to make some sense.

I'm hanging out for greater detail on the HCMTs. I hope in that case the doors are much more like the siemens, that the X'traps. When you walk into a Nexus, you are not cramped and you feel like you're walking into a palace.

Walk into an X'trap, you feel like you're ducking and weaving between other punters....
cabidass
http://economicdevelopment.vic.gov.au/transport/major-projects/high-capacity-metro-train-project#utm_source=transport-vic-gov-au&utm_medium=vanity-url-301ssredirect&utm_content=high-capacity-metro-train&utm_campaign=transport

They will have 3 doors per side as per the X'Traps.

The initial renders of the insides seem to have partitions around the doors like the Comengs used to have, but seeing as they've just removed these, they probably won't.

Given that they will have fewer seats per carriage to maximise standing space, they might feel airier, but they will have heaps of hand straps as well.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Yeah my comments around them feeling like walking into a palace, was with regards to the wide and open doors. And the lack of doors between the carriages.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It's happening everyone. Planning work commences on this important project.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/article-28560/
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
It's happening everyone. Planning work commences on this important project.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/planning-for-fast-rail-to-geelong/
James974
Surely it is time some sanity and common sense from somewhere in Victoria emerged.

Perhaps if we move Spring Street to the new Victorian capital at Geelong we can save all this STUPIDITY.

There are other communities in Melbourne and Victoria than Geelong.

I propose that the terminals for the new 20 minute trains between Geelong and Melbourne replace the football grounds at Geelong (whatever it is called today) and Etihad in Melbourne which will save the Victorian government giving a separate $ squillion to the Football Mob.

To meet the new 20 minute service from Geelong we will, of course, then need a 15 second tram service to cover the entire city metropolis.

Ballarat, Bendigo, Traralgon etc will all be closed and moved to Geelong.

Overall, the mind boggles.Rolling EyesRolling Eyes
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Realistically it will not be bullet train style but rather higher speed services between Geelong and Melbourne SCS.  This to my mind is really not a bad thing to be considering but let's be forward thinking and add Avalon Airport to future proof the route and do it once and once only. Geelong would become a major point of interchange or would you consider terminating at Marshall or South Geelong?

It is time the speeds between Melbourne and Geelong be addressed but what really does this have to do with the Airport Line and the federal government cash?  Nothing actually.  Looks like Jacinta Allan who has failed to address the many system based issues since she took over the job as minister is using this to try and refocus the federal cash.

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