Talgo proposal for 2hr Sydney-Canberra tilt train

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I know that old track was left alone on regional lines but the line to Moss vale was upgraded as per Sydney with concrete sleepers as it was part of the cityrail network up till when the ARTC took over the line south of Macarthur.

People do travel to Canberra and rush straight up to Parliament house. Canberra is an easy drive from Sydney and as I said only 2 and a half hours from South western Sydney. You can literally drive to Canberra and do touristy things and then head back to Sydney in a day without needing a hotel.

I have driven to perisher in one day and returned without booking a hotel. A lot of people do this trip in both ways and a higher speed train line could prove popular, but it would also be extremely expensive to build and maintain and only 1 passenger rail organisation in the area has proven it can do that and it isn't the ARTC, Canberra airport or the ACT Government. Foreign companies are only interested if the feds pay them an exorbitant amount of money to build and maintain the system which will of course be a significant loss making service.

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  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
I know that old track was left alone on regional lines but the line to Moss vale was upgraded as per Sydney with concrete sleepers as it was part of the cityrail network up till when the ARTC took over the line south of Macarthur.

People do travel to Canberra and rush straight up to Parliament house. Canberra is an easy drive from Sydney and as I said only 2 and a half hours from South western Sydney. You can literally drive to Canberra and do touristy things and then head back to Sydney in a day without needing a hotel.

I have driven to perisher in one day and returned without booking a hotel. A lot of people do this trip in both ways and a higher speed train line could prove popular, but it would also be extremely expensive to build and maintain and only 1 passenger rail organisation in the area has proven it can do that and it isn't the ARTC, Canberra airport or the ACT Government. Foreign companies are only interested if the feds pay them an exorbitant amount of money to build and maintain the system which will of course be a significant loss making service.
simstrain
If you have driven a car from say Sydney, you have solved your problem on how to get from the station/airport havn't you so hardly relevant. On the current train you would spend more time travelling than sightseeing. However you won't be building MSR for a few day trip return sight sight seers. You need to target business and political users. You want about half of those currently in a plane, which is about 3000 people a day.

Oh yes, did you forget about the Menangle rail bridge fiasco? An outcome of previous NSW govt management.

Private organisations typically work on a 10-15% profit margin in a competitive bidding process. So the so called exorbitant amount is actually not so exorbitant. They may reduce the target profit margin if the risk is reduced. But as you can get 5% in the bank without trying, obviously if want someone to take on risk they want a return. The service will run at a loss and hence will need an agreed subsidy, just like private and govt operators anywhere.

The ARTC is not a passenger train operator, they are an infrastructure manager
The ACT is a territory govt with no experience in running more than a bus rail wise
The NSW govt(s) has a very long history of only running minimum standard regional rail services
Railcorp has a long history of over pricing projects that the ARTC or other subsequently did for far less. Likely it was politically motivated to avoid the project in the first place.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
NSW Guvmnt had not resleepered most of the Macarthur-Moss Vale with concrete. This work was completed by ARTC along with signal upgrades. They also spent $2m on remedial work to reopen the Menangle Bridge, which NSW promised to replace but didn't.

Compare to the platinum lined road projects in Sydney, NSW spend SFA on rural infrastructure.
  M636C Minister for Railways

M636 we aren't talking about the vhst in here. We are talking about talgo making a 2 hour journey with the existing line. The VHST is a different conversation all together.
simstrain

As far as I know, there has never been any proposal from Talgo that suggested that a two hour journey could be made over existing or upgraded track from Sydney to Canberra.

I went to the Talgo presentation at the Australian National University, and all they spoke about was possible percentage time saving compared to existing trains. They spoke of providing a Talgo train set to be hauled by local locomotives, to which it was pointed out that except for XPT power cars, most locomotives were limited to 115 km/h.

The Talgo representatives appeared to have little knowledge of the route in question, and made no claim about overall journey time. They indicated what time savings had been made in the USA and in Europe on existing track.

I have the business cards from both Talgo representatives with their Spanish email addresses if anyone wants to check.

The only way a two hour journey could be achieved would be by constructing some new sections of track.

The obvious choice is to construct the line from Canberra to just south of Goulburn on the alignment suggested for an east coast high speed train. This would be relatively  cheap, compared to the benefits, since the route is through open country and near a road I have frequently used.

There could be further savings in time by adopting the former Picton Mittagong alignment (without the later up direction grade easing). New track could be built parallel to the current preserved line.

A two hour journey could be obtained without  anything approaching the costs of a high speed line.

Peter
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Sorry it took so long,
The sectional distances and average speeds

km Sectional distance Sectional time Average speed
Central 0 0 0:00
Campbelltown 55 55 0:44 75
Mittigong 132 77 0:54 86
Bowral 136 4 0:06 40
Moss Vale 148 12 0:06 120
Bunda 162 14 0:13 65
Goulburn 224 62 0:37 101
Tarago 262 38 0:29 79
Bundengore 293 31 0:24 77
Quean 321 28 0:29 58
Canberra 330 9 0:16 34


Suggested Improved alignment and speeds using a train capable of 160-180km/hr.

Travel time Canberra Airport to Sydney CBD 2.5hr

Sectional Improved alignment distance Cumulative Revised sectional time Revised Ave speed
Central 0 0
Campbelltown 55 55 0:41 80
Mittigong 60.5 116 0:24 151
Bowral 4 120 0:06 40
Moss Vale 9.46 129 0:05 114
Bunda 14 143 0:11 76
Goulburn 57.2 200 0:23 149
Tarago 38 238 0:16 143
Bundengore 30 268 0:12 150
Quean
Canberra
Canberra Airport 26.4 295 0:12 132
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Your not taking into account the padding in timetables in Sydney these days RTT. While the timetable says 44 minutes the XPT is easily able to taking sub 40 minutes to get to Campbelltown. Trains are held until there departure time so regardless of whether a train might arrive 5 minutes early it will get held until it is supposed to leave.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Your not taking into account the padding in timetables in Sydney these days RTT. While the timetable says 44 minutes the XPT is easily able to taking sub 40 minutes to get to Campbelltown. Trains are held until there departure time so regardless of whether a train might arrive 5 minutes early it will get held until it is supposed to leave.
simstrain
Doesn't make any difference. Fat in the timetable is there to provide buffer against network unreliability, more important for incoming regional trains to ensure they hit their slot. QR used operate the RTT with a 5min buffer leaving the Brisbane network into the congested single track on the sunshine coast to ensure all the trains freight and commuter held in the loops ahead of it are not held up.

Moral of the story, if you are going to spend a few billion making the trains faster and buying new rolling stock, you take the existing fat requirements into account and either design them out or allocate fat on the accelerated timetable.  One option would be to add a 2nd pair of tracks from Campbelltown to Riversby.
  tazzer96 Assistant Commissioner

Central to Campbelltown is 36 minutes and in an xpt according to nsw trainlink timetable and that covers 48km's.
simstrain
Its actually a few km less than that.   Campbelltown is marked via distances from the old main south.   The route via east hills is around 10km shorter.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Central to Campbelltown is 36 minutes and in an xpt according to nsw trainlink timetable and that covers 48km's.
Its actually a few km less than that.   Campbelltown is marked via distances from the old main south.   The route via east hills is around 10km shorter.
tazzer96
I used the Canberra XPL timetable which says it takes 44min.  I just looked up XPT and it says 45min so if there is buffer in that so be it but likely you may want to retain on an improved corridor to some degree.

As for the reduction in distance via East Hills, thanks for that. When we used the XPL it went via Granville so i over looked that issue. However this just makes the average speed so much worse. It would be nice to get actual times as it passes various stations on the East Hills line to see where it burns most of the time. However I suspect this is all north of Wolli Creek. This being the case I stand by my longterm held view than both South Coast and/or Canberra trains should use the unused underground platforms at Central.

Regards
Shane
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The sectional distances and average speeds
RTT_Rules

I think I can go one better than that.  Here is an extract from my spreadsheet which has (more or less) all the curves and speed boards from the ARTC curve and gradient diagram incorporated into it.

Minimum Transit Speeds

  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Minimum Transit Speeds
djf01

And a summary:

  simstrain Chief Commissioner

When I said fat. I mean the timetable has a huge amount of fat. I have witnessed the Goulburn endeavour sit at Glenfield for near on 10 minutes it was that early via the east hills line. While the timetable says 44 minutes. I can guarantee you the XPT can easily do cambelltown in 30 minutes. The express electric train can do Wolli creek to holsworthy in 15 minutes and glenfield in 21. Quadding from revesby isn't necessary but from glenfield it is extremely important to quad to macarthur to allow express trains to avoid the stoppers.

The other issue is the slow track out of Central to wolli creek. If this could be sped up then a 30 minute trip to Campbelltown should easily be possible.

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