V-Set replacement contract announced

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't really know how wide these new trains are supposed to be but I would suggest they are more likely to be 3 metres and not 3.1 metres since that would make them wider then an S set and as wide as old single deck trains. Oscars are 3.034m wide like waratahs and mbugs and the tangara's are actually 3 metres wide and one of these widths makes more sense.

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  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

Another article:-

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/too-wide-and-long-work-starts-next-year-to-make-line-big-enough-for-new-trains-20170809-gxsana.html

Sydney Trains have also posted a video on their facebook (Aug 9) about the changes which will need to be made to bring the Blue Mountains line west of Springwood in line with rest of the system.

I guess this was inevitable really...once the V-sets would be retired this was going to have to happen unless new trains were built to the narrower specs similar to the V-sets. I think the general thought process is that this particular bottleneck should not impact/limit the train design either now or into the future, especially when the other 2 intercity lines (south coast and central coast/newcastle) have no issue with the wider trains, which do bring advantages such as wider/larger vestibules to reduce narrow choke points, larger toilet blocks, etc and are much more friendly for the disabled.

I guess another question is whether services in the region will be bolstered through "local runs" using suburban stock such as Waratahs? Something like a Penrith-Katoomba or Springwood-Lithgow type run?

Furthermore, will all Oscars be "suburbanised" as the Tangara G sets were or will some be kept with their toilets intact to help "make up the numbers" and bolster services with the new intercity trains?

Will be interesting to see what comes of all this.
  Transtopic Train Controller

According to yesterday's SMH, the new IU trains are 3.1m (10' 2") wide and are too wide for most of the Blue Mountains.

The extra width may allow for 2+3 seating in stead of 2+2 seating.
awsgc24
I doubt that's correct.  More likely to be closer to 3m similar to Oscars, but still too wide for a limited number of pinch points between Springwood and Lithgow.  The specs clearly state, supported by visual graphics, that the Intercity trains will have fixed 2+2 seating.
  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

Fears over lengthy delays to track work to Blue Mountains line

http://www.lithgowmercury.com.au/story/4858357/service-up-in-air/
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
None of the online information seems to say anything about Mount Victoria station. Does it need any work done?

Mount Victoria is a curved through platform can an Oscar like train actually fit through it?
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

Mt Victoria requires the most work to bring it up to standard. It has to be almost completely rebuilt( the track not the station).
  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

Local MP to debate Transport Minister Constance on new intercity fleet contract

http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/4923461/transport-minister-accepts-labor-challenge/
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Central Coast was done I think in the 80's.

It will be good for NSW trains to have all three corridors on the same page, much easier for scheduling.
  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

Central Coast was done I think in the 80's.

It will be good for NSW trains to have all three corridors on the same page, much easier for scheduling.
RTT_Rules

I take it with wider bodied stock allowed to proceed all the way to Lithgow, wouldn't that also allow "local" runs in between the intercity runs - something like a Penrith to Katoomba type run? If they were to do this though would they use suburban trains such as Waratahs or Tangaras?
  Transtopic Train Controller

Local MP to debate Transport Minister Constance on new intercity fleet contract

http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/4923461/transport-minister-accepts-labor-challenge/
SydneyCider
What a beat-up!  Labor has to do better than that.  They'd be doing the same thing if they were in power.  I don't agree with everything the Coalition does with transport, but with regard to this issue, they're on the money.  It's inevitable and when you're replacing the whole Intercity Train fleet, it's the time to do it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

They might have something on the reversible seating but seriously the widening needs to happen.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Central Coast was done I think in the 80's.

It will be good for NSW trains to have all three corridors on the same page, much easier for scheduling.
RTT_Rules
+1

It needs to happen.
  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

Kangy Angy Maintenance site for new intercity trains approved (Newcastle and Central Coast line)

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/4926661/kangy-angy-railroaded/
  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

I'm actually curious, if the new intercity trains replace all oscars and they are moved to suburban duties, what will happen to the Gosford and Wyong services via the North Shore Line? Will the new intercity trains be travelling through the city subway to Hornsby? or will they keep a couple of Oscars for outer suburban/shorter intercity runs such as this? I guess the further question is, prior to the introduction of the first outer suburban trains (Tangara G sets), I take it all Wyong services were to and from Sydney Terminal via Strathfield/Epping only in days of the U and V sets?
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

I'm actually curious, if the new intercity trains replace all oscars and they are moved to suburban duties, what will happen to the Gosford and Wyong services via the North Shore Line? Will the new intercity trains be travelling through the city subway to Hornsby? or will they keep a couple of Oscars for outer suburban/shorter intercity runs such as this? I guess the further question is, prior to the introduction of the first outer suburban trains (Tangara G sets), I take it all Wyong services were to and from Sydney Terminal via Strathfield/Epping only in days of the U and V sets?
SydneyCider
No, they will be done with the new sets.   Wyong and gosford services via the shore have been done with v sets in the past.   The issue with V sets is that each car is approx 4m longer than a normal suburban car.  So an 8 car v set train is roughly 32m longer than an 8 car oscar or waratah.  Because of this extra length, an 8 car v sets can't fit into the eastern suburbs railway, the city circle and any north shore stations.  
Previosuly they just ran 4 and 6 car v sets via the shore so it wasn't an issue, but now you can't do that, nor do you want to for capacity reasons.
  SydneyCider Junior Train Controller

Some updates on the new intercity fleet and planned blue mountains line and 10 tunnels work

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/new-intercity-fleet


Springwood-Lithgow rail line upgrade project (does not include 10 tunnels work/project)

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/new-intercity-fleet-program-springwood-to-lithgow-rail-corridor


10 tunnels deviation project work (widening tunnels, etc)

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/new-intercity-fleet-program-ten-tunnels

The above page was just posted on 6 February 2018 and public submissions are open until 27 February 2018. Each of the links have detailed info in PDF files to proposed works. Both the springwood-lithgow line upgrade project and 10 tunnels deviation project are scheduled to start sometime this year (likely end of 2018 for 10 tunnels) and take about 2 years to complete.
  apw5910 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Both the springwood-lithgow line upgrade project and 10 tunnels deviation project are scheduled to start sometime this year (likely end of 2018 for 10 tunnels) and take about 2 years to complete.
SydneyCider
Bet Blue Mountains commuters are thrilled by that.

When I read "10 Tunnels Deviation Project" I thought "Wow, are they finally going to get rid of them?" but no, it's just the name of that section of line. Bit silly to be calling it a deviation now, since it's been the main line far longer than Zigzag ever was.
  nswtrains Deputy Commissioner

Both the springwood-lithgow line upgrade project and 10 tunnels deviation project are scheduled to start sometime this year (likely end of 2018 for 10 tunnels) and take about 2 years to complete.
Bet Blue Mountains commuters are thrilled by that.

When I read "10 Tunnels Deviation Project" I thought "Wow, are they finally going to get rid of them?" but no, it's just the name of that section of line. Bit silly to be calling it a deviation now, since it's been the main line far longer than Zigzag ever was.
apw5910
Justify why the Blue Mountains commuters are going to be thrilled and could you financially justify getting rid of the ten tunnels. Actually just going to notch them in a similar style to Glenbrook #2.
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
Tangara-style fixed seats for the new trains.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/cost-safety-trumps-passengers-desire-for-flip-seats-on-new-trains-20180302-p4z2ib.html
  nswtrains Deputy Commissioner

Tangara-style fixed seats for the new trains.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/cost-safety-trumps-passengers-desire-for-flip-seats-on-new-trains-20180302-p4z2ib.html
jcouch
The fixed seating has been disclosed from the start. Nothing new here.
  vdan Train Controller

Tangara-style fixed seats for the new trains.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/cost-safety-trumps-passengers-desire-for-flip-seats-on-new-trains-20180302-p4z2ib.html
The fixed seating has been disclosed from the start. Nothing new here.
nswtrains
"Tangara-style" is new news, isn't it?

While the final layout was still subject to detailed design work, Transport for NSW said it would be similar to the state's Tangara trains which had half the seats facing in one direction and the rest in the other. Two sets of seats would also be placed at either end of each carriage which would allow passengers travelling in groups to face each other.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Tangara-style fixed seats for the new trains.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/cost-safety-trumps-passengers-desire-for-flip-seats-on-new-trains-20180302-p4z2ib.html
The fixed seating has been disclosed from the start. Nothing new here.
"Tangara-style" is new news, isn't it?

While the final layout was still subject to detailed design work, Transport for NSW said it would be similar to the state's Tangara trains which had half the seats facing in one direction and the rest in the other. Two sets of seats would also be placed at either end of each carriage which would allow passengers travelling in groups to face each other.
vdan
Indeed it is...

The artist's impressions showed the facing pairs of seats at the end of the car and I thought that they showed facing pairs throughout although I could be wrong.

This whole contract is basically one serious error after another...

There is no need for these cars to be wider than V sets since the seats will be 2+2

The difference in overall width is only 75mm which would provide a negligible extra gap of around 37mm to platforms.

If they do widen the Blue Mountains, there will be a demand for Oscars with more acceptable seating to run the longer services.

Peter
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Making them standard width enables the fleet to be standardised.

Also 37mm extra gap is 37mm extra. Is this an additional safety hazard that is now resolved?
  M636C Minister for Railways

Making them standard width enables the fleet to be standardised.

Also 37mm extra gap is 37mm extra. Is this an additional safety hazard that is now resolved?
RTT_Rules

What is the great advantage of having cars the same size externally if the seating is completely different, both in style and numbers?

Keeping the cars the same length with doors in the same place does allow the use of platform gates and I'm quite happy with that.

Why put 2+2 seating in a body that successfully provides 2+3 seating?
Making the seating 2+2 in a 2.9 m body provides wider aisles than 2+3 in a 3m body.
Careful design of the seating can make this extra aisle width more usable.

The diesel Hunter railcars fit the narrower loading gauge, have 2+3 seating and seat around 90 passengers.
One of these fitted as an EMU as a four car set would provide more acceptable passenger comfort on long journeys (the generally similar Endeavour runs to Bathurst and there aren't serious complaints).

These could replace V sets one for one and would load and unload faster and provide better ambience (and significantly better luggage space) in the single deck car.

As it is the new trains will be a combination of four and six car sets to provide the same seating as an eight car V set and will require platforms to be lengthened to take the longer trains.

Everything about using shorter wider cars is going to cost more and seems a high price to pay for "standard" car dimensions.
It isn't as if you could couple a Millennium, Waratah or Oscar car into one of the new sets. They are all incompatible in everything except door placement.

I watched a piece on the ABC news last night. they showed the original computer generated images on the new train interior, and they definitely showed all facing pairs of seats on the upper deck. There were also shots of a mock -up that showed the "Tangara" arrangement face to rear with high seat backs. It looked like there were airline style folding tables in the seat backs, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Peter
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The hunters sit 146 passengers in a 2 car train. (292 in a 4 car combo)
The endeavours sit 177 passengers in a 2 car train. (354 in a 4 car combo)
An Oscar can sit 432 passengers in a 4 car train.
A V set can sit 416 passengers in a 4 car train.

M636 with these numbers can you explain how a single deck train could replace a double deck train 1 for 1 please?

The bathurst bullet is a limited stop service and newcastle services stop at 20 or more stops with higher population bases.

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