XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't know about the rubber tyres but I have been saying that the whole fleet was to be replaced and not just the xpt's.

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  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
This morning's ABC radio news (NSW edition) had an update from the NSW deputy Premier.

I cannot find an ABC news link, but a regional newspaper from Dubbo is also carrying the story:

http://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/4851416/track-to-growth-all-new-regional-train-fleet-dubbo-preferred-location-for-key-facility/?cs=122
craigfitz1

Here's the ABC link:

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/fears-about-fare-rises-as-private-money-sought-to-help-replace-ageing-nsw-regional-rail-fleet
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I don't know about the rubber tyres but I have been saying that the whole fleet was to be replaced and not just the xpt's.
simstrain
There is a small element in this group that won't be happy until buses are replacing all XPT/XPL services simply to say "I told you so, what else do you expect from an LNP govt?".
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

I don't know about the rubber tyres but I have been saying that the whole fleet was to be replaced and not just the xpt's.
There is a small element in this group that won't be happy until buses are replacing all XPT/XPL services simply to say "I told you so, what else do you expect from an LNP govt?".
RTT_Rules
Touche!  Obviously steel wheeled rail will prevail.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

"New Rail Maintenance Centre goes to Dubbo"
http://www.goulburnpost.com.au/story/4856618/dubbo-gets-rail-centre/ (Aug 2017)

In this article there is an artists impression of how the new XPT train will look, I'm guessing it's probably subject to change and nothing is final as to it's design so far.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Those class 800 trains that I mentioned went into service this week in the UK with some niggling issues but they look impressive. Lots of videos on youtube.

I see no reason why a modernized xplorer or vlocity body with the appropriate interior couldn't work with a cummins qsk19 instead of the MTU power unit.
  Spirit of Queensland Beginner

Something based on the Class 800 or any long distance DMU would probably be the ideal choice as a replacement for the XPT (getting back on track here)
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Whatever is decided, it should be engineered and built here, with Australian metal. While the 800 looks amazing, it is rather pointless if we do not straighten out the track. Tilt technology is the go and if it can't be used, we should return to loco haul - there is nothing wrong with it.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Whatever is decided, it should be engineered and built here, with Australian metal. While the 800 looks amazing, it is rather pointless if we do not straighten out the track. Tilt technology is the go and if it can't be used, we should return to loco haul - there is nothing wrong with it.
ANR
Australia no longer has the resources (or very limited resources) to undertake engineering from ground up for these sort of short production run specialised trains, thats why we go off-shore and buy something that's proven then have it adapted for local conditions. However I support local final assembly although like UK, the car bodies will likely be imported whole due to costs in tooling up for local fabrication for small production run.

Tilting seems to benefit Qld, if +10% speed improvement can be had, then go for it.

The XPT was derated to 160km/h due to local conditions and  the 800 class should be the same to also improve its acceleration under diesel which is currently 0.7ms-2 which is a slow compared to a EMU.

The car sets for UK are nominally longer than whats needed for NSW, 3/4 car sets is more than enough. Join two together for larger capacity services as the Brit's do.


Loco hauled passenger trains is outdated and expense to run. Yes there is nothing Wrong with it, but there is alot that isn't right either. Time to put this technology in the same place as steam traction.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Whatever is decided, it should be engineered and built here, with Australian metal. While the 800 looks amazing, it is rather pointless if we do not straighten out the track. Tilt technology is the go and if it can't be used, we should return to loco haul - there is nothing wrong with it.
Australia no longer has the resources (or very limited resources) to undertake engineering from ground up for these sort of short production run specialised trains, thats why we go off-shore and buy something that's proven then have it adapted for local conditions. However I support local final assembly although like UK, the car bodies will likely be imported whole due to costs in tooling up for local fabrication for small production run.

Tilting seems to benefit Qld, if +10% speed improvement can be had, then go for it.

The XPT was derated to 160km/h due to local conditions and  the 800 class should be the same to also improve its acceleration under diesel which is currently 0.7ms-2 which is a slow compared to a EMU.

The car sets for UK are nominally longer than whats needed for NSW, 3/4 car sets is more than enough. Join two together for larger capacity services as the Brit's do.


Loco hauled passenger trains is outdated and expense to run. Yes there is nothing Wrong with it, but there is alot that isn't right either. Time to put this technology in the same place as steam traction.
RTT_Rules
The XPT was not derated to 160Km/h at all.  All the pre service tests were conducted without limit on their speed as shown with the 180+Km/h speed on the Main South, official speed as clocked in the cab and by the police on radar.  

The max operating speed prior to the manning level and Federal industrial commissions ruling when the observer was removed was to be 160Km/h the reason was to comply with the same conditions that applied to the British HST being that a single driver was allowed up to that speed, if the train was to run at over that speed over a given distance 2 fully qualified drivers were to be employed for safety and alertness reasons.

What needs to be understood on these trains is that when one goes non stop at speed, especially when you have minimal front end on the engine, same was with the flat end type diesels at more than 100K's you got used to that speed as being normal when you checked the speed and timetabling for any stop, you certainly had an adjustment in how you drove them as when you did finally come to a stop, you had the same thing as truck drivers of white line fever effects.  If you looked forward and down you had the vision of the track still receding under the train.

Thankfully most of the NSW stops especially on the Nth you only had a few spots where you could get to much over 140, but even that had you lifting yourself for any event on the track ahead, concentration was sharply increased.  When the speed tests were done on the North from WCK - BMD the use of 2 carriages and the dyno car along with permission to run 42220 at up to 135K's was given, to which I was the driver on that test, really lifted a persons concentration and need for alertness, even with a mate in the cab as well as a travelling inspector, who along with myself had to sent reports regarding how it went.

If there was any down rating to the XPT's it certainly was not in my time, all the slowing down of it was for passenger comfort owing to the poor riding in the carriages especially when people were walking through the train when it was in motion, and that problem still exists and not just at higher speeds, it does not always affect me as being used to working on Steam at speed one had to balance your movements with the knees and how you moved around, doing that helped me not lose balance - mostly.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Derating I meant gearing waa changed to give it more grunt for hills which erodes the top end speed. That is my understanding.

I think today the 2 man ruling for higher speed has since proven to be no safer than 1 man and hence would not be approved as a higher level of safety during a HAZOP study.

Yes the faster you go the more you pay atention especially when first going those speeds. Had same issue here in Dubai when I first started driving at 140km/h in traffic.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sims wrote
"Why carry around an empty carriage if you don't need it. With 1 less carriage there will be less fuel used and less mileage on carriages"

Look at the freight operators. They long dropped the concept of matching g train length to demand and run racks of fixed length because the labour and safety required to break up trains is not worth the effort.
RTT_Rules

I never wrote this.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Derating I meant gearing waa changed to give it more grunt for hills which erodes the top end speed. That is my understanding.

I think today the 2 man ruling for higher speed has since proven to be no safer than 1 man and hence would not be approved as a higher level of safety during a HAZOP study.

Yes the faster you go the more you pay atention especially when first going those speeds. Had same issue here in Dubai when I first started driving at 140km/h in traffic.
RTT_Rules
The question therefore is what are the manning levels on the current HST sets in England?  

Thing is that if the replacement trains are able to run at higher than 160k's what conditions would they run under?

The only aspect with the higher speeds is when its on extended runs that can impact things, although when schedules are set that means the train run over many varying conditions in order to maintain as high a speed as possible, including the manipulations of the brakes and throttles places a lot more stresses on the drivers.

I understand that the way things still apply for the driver to accelerate the trains being mindful of the comfort of passengers when running late in order to regain time still applies, which in itself adds to the drivers work and safety requirements in operations.
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
Derating I meant gearing waa changed to give it more grunt for hills which erodes the top end speed. That is my understanding.

I think today the 2 man ruling for higher speed has since proven to be no safer than 1 man and hence would not be approved as a higher level of safety during a HAZOP study.

Yes the faster you go the more you pay atention especially when first going those speeds. Had same issue here in Dubai when I first started driving at 140km/h in traffic.
The question therefore is what are the manning levels on the current HST sets in England?  

Thing is that if the replacement trains are able to run at higher than 160k's what conditions would they run under?

The only aspect with the higher speeds is when its on extended runs that can impact things, although when schedules are set that means the train run over many varying conditions in order to maintain as high a speed as possible, including the manipulations of the brakes and throttles places a lot more stresses on the drivers.

I understand that the way things still apply for the driver to accelerate the trains being mindful of the comfort of passengers when running late in order to regain time still applies, which in itself adds to the drivers work and safety requirements in operations.
a6et
These replacement trains should be built in this country, there are suitable replacement trains already operating here that are capable of the 200kph, there are the Queensland Rail Diesel Tilt Trains which are operating reliably on long haul Brisbane to Cairns services.
Downer could easily build a standard gauge version although they may have to go to a diesel electric drive rather than the diesel hydraulic that is used at present which would then allow the power units to tilt, at present the power units do not tilt.
It would be possible for the carriages to be built in NSW and the power units at Downers plant in Marybrough.  These units could also find use with VR on their Melbourne - Albury services.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Just because the CTT was built here doesn't mean its the right train for NSW, which it isn't. Remember NSW is not replacing just the XPT, its replacing both XPT and XPL.

I haven't been on the CTT, but if the profile is the same as RTT, its narrow. Certainly the seats are tighter than the XPT in EC for both.

There is no need for trains that operate plus 160km/h as there is no track for them to operate on and there isn't likely for decades if ever, hell just getting to plus 140k/h would be nice. The benefit of +160km/h operation pales into insignificance when compared to getting rid of the track operating less at 100km/h, especially less than 80km/h.

WA built the Prospector for 200km/h running because they planned to upgrade the track, it never happened and never will. No one is going to build 200km/h rated track for a few trains a day and same applies to NSW especially considering the more frequent freight trains are working against you.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Derating I meant gearing waa changed to give it more grunt for hills which erodes the top end speed. That is my understanding.

I think today the 2 man ruling for higher speed has since proven to be no safer than 1 man and hence would not be approved as a higher level of safety during a HAZOP study.

Yes the faster you go the more you pay atention especially when first going those speeds. Had same issue here in Dubai when I first started driving at 140km/h in traffic.
The question therefore is what are the manning levels on the current HST sets in England?  

Thing is that if the replacement trains are able to run at higher than 160k's what conditions would they run under?

The only aspect with the higher speeds is when its on extended runs that can impact things, although when schedules are set that means the train run over many varying conditions in order to maintain as high a speed as possible, including the manipulations of the brakes and throttles places a lot more stresses on the drivers.

I understand that the way things still apply for the driver to accelerate the trains being mindful of the comfort of passengers when running late in order to regain time still applies, which in itself adds to the drivers work and safety requirements in operations.
a6et
Hi,
Appreciate the inside feedback, not sure how its managed in say Austria where trains routinely travel at 200km/h, but it is managed.

Back to Australia and NSW, lets not get ahead of ourselves, we don't need 200km/h running, we need average speeds of 120km/h running with top end speeds of 160km/h. We also don't have the traffic density to justify +160km/h running. The main south to Goulburn and maybe Canberra Branch is the only place I could see 160-200km/h potentially being viable and worth the investment within next 10-15 years at least.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There is no point in a NSW train running faster then 160km/h. As RTT pointed out the new fleet will not just be replacing the XPT but also the Xplorer and so the new fleet will need to be able to go to Melbourne and Brisbane as well as do services such as armidale and moree. The new fleet will give options such as dubbo/parkes and albury/griffith and it might also allow more brisbane services with splits at casino/grafton.

This fleet will be of a dmu variety and if EDI wins the contract it will be built at the cardiff workshops in NSW. EDI Maryborough are not getting any work in relation to NSW. If bombardier win it will be built in Victoria and I am not sure where the train will be built if CAF wins. Most likely it will be built in Spain.

Tilt would be nice but is not necessary.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
There is no point in a NSW train running faster then 160km/h. As RTT pointed out the new fleet will not just be replacing the XPT but also the Xplorer and so the new fleet will need to be able to go to Melbourne and Brisbane as well as do services such as armidale and moree. The new fleet will give options such as dubbo/parkes and albury/griffith and it might also allow more brisbane services with splits at casino/grafton.

This fleet will be of a dmu variety and if EDI wins the contract it will be built at the cardiff workshops in NSW. EDI Maryborough are not getting any work in relation to NSW. If bombardier win it will be built in Victoria and I am not sure where the train will be built if CAF wins. Most likely it will be built in Spain.

Tilt would be nice but is not necessary.
simstrain
This is why I strongly believe we will see a fleet of 3 and maybe 4 car fixed sets capable of running in multiples of up to 4 sets, with all trains having the same internal layout so they can work on any route.

For example, each train to the following locations
- Canberra - 1 set
- Griffith - 1 set, likely coupled with the Melbourne/Wagga or Canberra train in either direction.
- Dubbo/Parks/Broken Hill - 2 sets (one for Dubbo) and on days when just Dubbo 1 set
- Melbourne -  2 sets
- NW - 2 sets
- Wagga (My prediction) - 1 set maybe 2

- North Coast/Brisbane, I'm expecting some significant changes with potential trains heading off as 2 sets but 1 set terminating early and being coupled to a south bound service shortly after. I'm not sure if we will see 3 trains a day head north to Grafton, Casino and Brisbane, I suspect it will be reduced to just 2, Grafton OR Casino AND Brisbane, but more reasonable hours for Brisbane as we have discussed before and more services per day on southern half of the NCL.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT, that is roughly what I am hearing is going too happen as well. All of those services you mentioned but with additional daily Albury and Griffith service. A daily Parkes service that splits from the Dubbo Service at Orange. There will be enough of the new trains for reserves to be held as replacement in case of breakdowns throughout the state.

The Xplorers will go into service for expanded Bathurst, Goulburn and southern highland services. Basically this will mean a Diesel Electric Hybrid Multiple Unit will be purchased. A diesel loco will be a no show for the new regional fleet. XPT's will be retired and sold with a set saved for the museum.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
RTT, that is roughly what I am hearing is going too happen as well. All of those services you mentioned but with additional daily Albury and Griffith service. A daily Parkes service that splits from the Dubbo Service at Orange. There will be enough of the new trains for reserves to be held as replacement in case of breakdowns throughout the state. The Xplorers will go into service for expanded Bathurst, Goulburn and southern highland services. Basically this will mean a Diesel Electric Hybrid Multiple Unit will be purchased. A diesel loco will be a no show for the new regional fleet. XPT's will be retired and sold with a set saved for the museum.
Simstrain
Dont forget Keith Jones of Dorrgio would want a few:twisted:
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT, that is roughly what I am hearing is going too happen as well. All of those services you mentioned but with additional daily Albury and Griffith service. A daily Parkes service that splits from the Dubbo Service at Orange. There will be enough of the new trains for reserves to be held as replacement in case of breakdowns throughout the state.

The Xplorers will go into service for expanded Bathurst, Goulburn and southern highland services. Basically this will mean a Diesel Electric Hybrid Multiple Unit will be purchased. A diesel loco will be a no show for the new regional fleet. XPT's will be retired and sold with a set saved for the museum.
simstrain
Thanks,
A third south Main to Albury is great, Wagga however is more practical but I suppose politics deems Albury.

Not sure a daily Griffith train is both needed or practical, likely more services than the current 1, but daily?

Likewise Parkes, I can understand a few per week, say 3-4 times, with one being extended to BH.

The movement of XPL's to the Southern Highlands should resolve the issues on the South Main for many years to come, although some won't be happy until the is a wire hanging above the line.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The reason it will be so is to gain political points in regional areas for the nationals. This current government isn't going to order too few of these new trains like the case was with the XPT, Xplorer and Endeavour. This new train is going to be ordered in significant numbers to bring the per unit cost down and provide extra services in areas that the libs and nats have lost seats in recently.
  Clyde Goodwin2 Chief Train Controller

The reason it will be so is to gain political points in regional areas for the nationals. This current government isn't going to order too few of these new trains like the case was with the XPT, Xplorer and Endeavour. This new train is going to be ordered in significant numbers to bring the per unit cost down and provide extra services in areas that the libs and nats have lost seats in recently.
simstrain
Care to say just what seats the Nationals have lost in NSW lately.
  Clyde Goodwin2 Chief Train Controller

Parkes and district is Roughly the same size catchment as Dubbo (City not region) and has 3 return Coaches per day in and out including the every 2nd day Dubbo Cootamundra service and Condobolin services so yes it does warrant a train service.

Griffith being a major regional city also does require a daily return Rail service which will be fairly well patronised.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

The reason it will be so is to gain political points in regional areas for the nationals. This current government isn't going to order too few of these new trains like the case was with the XPT, Xplorer and Endeavour. This new train is going to be ordered in significant numbers to bring the per unit cost down and provide extra services in areas that the libs and nats have lost seats in recently.
Care to say just what seats the Nationals have lost in NSW lately.
Clyde Goodwin2
Um Calare, taken from the Liberal lite Nats, now held by the Shooters party, with a swing of 35% against the Nats, ever since you can see money being thrown at the electorate, look at the millions to reopen the line to Rylstone, no business case. Road repairs on the Orange bypass. the list goes on and on.

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