of driving. driverless cars, credit cards etc

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?
james.au

You make it sound like driving is a bad thing. Driving in the country is one of the best things because there are no traffic jams and road speed limits tend to be 100+ km/h. Driving a car is much more fun then reading or watching vids.

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  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?

You make it sound like driving is a bad thing. Driving in the country is one of the best things because there are no traffic jams and road speed limits tend to be 100+ km/h. Driving a car is much more fun then reading or watching vids.
simstrain

I speak from 13 years experience on a school bus, about an hour each way every day.  The romance gets lost pretty quickly when youre doing the same thing day in day out......

On top of that, many many trips on the same route to get into and out of town.  I actually hardly ever take the main route now as i try and take every little back road and dirt track to get to the same destination to make it a bit more fun by seeing different things...

Also, the Olympic highway is a long straight stretch of road, its pretty boring and annoying especially when you get a queue of traffic behind a slower moving vehicle.  Given the oncoming traffic it is surprisingly hard to overtake on.
  The Man in Blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: Trackside in Baiyin NW China!
A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?

You make it sound like driving is a bad thing. Driving in the country is one of the best things because there are no traffic jams and road speed limits tend to be 100+ km/h. Driving a car is much more fun then reading or watching vids.
simstrain
Driverless vehicles now given the go ahead on NSW roads. Its only a few years until they start to make great inroads into our day to day lives. They will change the old ideas of fixed routes. Anyone can use a driverless vehicle in the way we now use UBER.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I have never used uber or even care to. If I need such a vehicle I would just call a taxi but more then likely I would just use PT.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?

You make it sound like driving is a bad thing. Driving in the country is one of the best things because there are no traffic jams and road speed limits tend to be 100+ km/h. Driving a car is much more fun then reading or watching vids.
Driverless vehicles now given the go ahead on NSW roads. Its only a few years until they start to make great inroads into our day to day lives. They will change the old ideas of fixed routes. Anyone can use a driverless vehicle in the way we now use UBER.
The Man in Blue
I feel that driverless vehicle advocates are being wildly optimistic with the timeline for their introduction.  Id say 15-20 years away  at least rather than the 5-10 years that im seeing mentioned.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?

You make it sound like driving is a bad thing. Driving in the country is one of the best things because there are no traffic jams and road speed limits tend to be 100+ km/h. Driving a car is much more fun then reading or watching vids.
Driverless vehicles now given the go ahead on NSW roads. Its only a few years until they start to make great inroads into our day to day lives. They will change the old ideas of fixed routes. Anyone can use a driverless vehicle in the way we now use UBER.
I feel that driverless vehicle advocates are being wildly optimistic with the timeline for their introduction.  Id say 15-20 years away  at least rather than the 5-10 years that im seeing mentioned.
james.au
I don't share you time line prediction, the cars exist now. Their is so much money being spent on the technology that 15-20 years is unrealistic. Its not about inventing anything, its all about coding. This is the only thing in the way.

2020 to 2025 at the very latest.

The end of diesel and petrol isn't far behind either.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?

You make it sound like driving is a bad thing. Driving in the country is one of the best things because there are no traffic jams and road speed limits tend to be 100+ km/h. Driving a car is much more fun then reading or watching vids.
Driverless vehicles now given the go ahead on NSW roads. Its only a few years until they start to make great inroads into our day to day lives. They will change the old ideas of fixed routes. Anyone can use a driverless vehicle in the way we now use UBER.
I feel that driverless vehicle advocates are being wildly optimistic with the timeline for their introduction.  Id say 15-20 years away  at least rather than the 5-10 years that im seeing mentioned.
I don't share you time line prediction, the cars exist now. Their is so much money being spent on the technology that 15-20 years is unrealistic. Its not about inventing anything, its all about coding. This is the only thing in the way.

2020 to 2025 at the very latest.

The end of diesel and petrol isn't far behind either.
RTT_Rules

Australia is a big place and there is lots of coding to be done, and on roads that are going to not see a lot of traffic.  Id suspect that in denser places like the UK etc it will happen sooner given the greater road use densities.  Maybe it will be a staged approach here.  Cities and major roads first, then smaller roads and then finally backroads.

I was at a conference the other day and the rep from the Dept of Infrastructure mentioned they don't even have a central balance sheet of what roads are where in Australia, let alone their technical details.  Their process had been going on for about 5 years and they hadn't yet got there and don't expect to for a while.

Even google maps doesnt have maps for all roads in Australia.
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
So we can't build computers, phones etc that don't fail but somehow we will produce driverless cars that will never fail?  I have spent a lifetime in IT fixing systems where people didn't understand the full details or that circumstances have changed. I will get back to this later

to me a driverless car is really a taxi, bus, train, plane etc

Also if the cars are driverless and are shared so you don't own your own how is it going to tell if the last occupant soiled themselves and the vehicle or just had dirty clothes on after their shift and left grease or grime so the vehicle needs to be cleaned?  If it isn't clean people will not share the vehicle - some of those hire-by-the-hour cars have those problems now.

Finally while lots of the technical bits exist now (eg GPS) they have issues where even the latest copy of the maps are not accurate in some areas.  eg It's common for GPS to put our house 800m down the road and some even have our road 100m west of where it has always been - Imagine if the driverless car turns over the embankment, though the ditch and the 5-wire fence as it's GPS said that's where the road is!

Also there are several 'dry weather only' roads in this area.  Depending on the amount of rain they can be impassible for an hour or a couple of months. How is a driverless car meant to handle this?  It doesn't have local knowledge.  The same problem exists with fires, floods, trees or powerlines down etc that can block the road long before the internet knows about it.

Other examples commonly used in favour of driverless cars are commercial airlines are mainly flown by computers - and mainly is the point. They have highly trained and qualified people there to monitor the situation and take over if a system fails.  Your average car driver would be too busy on their phone, watching a movie or photographing a train to notice until it was too late.

Some of the current safety systems in cars have flaws.  Airbags are one example.  In 2015 the kangaroos were bad around Heathcote and there were a spate of accidents with cars hitting trees and the occupants being killed.  The accident investigators found that hitting a kangaroo was enough to set off the airbags. The explosive from the airbags blocked the drivers vision and the vehicle continued, running off the road and when it hit the tree the airbag had already gone down so the occupants weren't protected.  Even worse the driver's knee airbag pushed the driver's leg off the brake pedal - increasing the speed of the second impact.

Then there's the cars with the sensors for the cruise control on a non-driven wheel.  This means if that wheel aquaplanes or slips the computer increases the engine power causing acceleration. if the sensors are on a driven-wheel then when it aquaplanes the wheel speeds up and the computer cuts engine power.  The former can cause accidents the later tends to prevent it
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Driverless cars will become a thing, but nowhere near as soon as some think.   We currently have the technology for driverless cars and they have ridiculously good safety, but it's just cost prohibitive.   The amount of sensors and computing power required for driverless cars is so high its not on anyone's radar.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Come back in a year and reprise your post.

I think you'll find things moving along faster than you may have thought they would.

Mike.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ill be happy to be surprised.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There are no currently commercially available driverless cars and the driverless cars that exist are all currently in labs being worked on and can not operate in normal traffic. They require there own lanes or can only operate on a racing circuit such as seen on Top Gear in one episode.

Some modern cars have a radar cruise control but this is in no way makes a car driverless. The other issue with driverless is the problem with hacking and someone other then the computer actually being in control of a car. People think that we are further along the technological road then we actually are just because Hollywood makes it look so.

Manufacturers don't want them in any case because it will mean a reduction in sales if nobody is buying a new car.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Driverless cars also mean a loss of income for governments and business. No GST on car sales, no registration, no insurance, no fuel excise, no licenses, no tolls, no maintenance industry, no taxi drivers and so no income tax.
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
Come back in a year and reprise your post.

I think you'll find things moving along faster than you may have thought they would.

Mike.
The Vinelander
The IT industry has been promising the Paperless Office since the 1980's when I started to be involved professionally. Instead computers are being used to produce more paper than before.

It is true that once email became commonplace a lot of companies now email their bills rather than print them but studies have shown that most people who receive emailed bills actually print them out so the paper and costs are just borne by the customer rather than the issuing company.

A paperless office is a lot easier to achieve than a self-driving car and nobody has come up with what they will do with a system crash.  I can see gridlock as a cpu died and the car doesn't communicate to those near it to 'go around'
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Driverless cars will become a thing, but nowhere near as soon as some think.   We currently have the technology for driverless cars and they have ridiculously good safety, but it's just cost prohibitive.   The amount of sensors and computing power required for driverless cars is so high its not on anyone's radar.
tazzer96
Most the sensors are already on the car, they just use it for other purposes.

They use a camera to view the road and look for edge and line markings, the camera is no bigger than whats in your phone or the reverse parking camera on many cars.

Cost, currently the technology exists, mostly now in numerous models including Tesla and Merc with price tags around $100k, its not the driver-less features that make these cars that expensive, its the other bits and pieces for these cars.

Currently the "driverless" still requires a human as a backup and the cars control system will not change. A true driverless car would not have a drivers seat as we know today. This is probably a decade away, once they sort the automation out.

The computing power is no more than your average mobile phone can handle.

Driverless cars are on most govt radars and a growing number of corporations world wide, especially anyone in transport and logistics including taxi industry. One of the biggest investors is Uber.

Its a significant change, what will be lagging is not the technology, but the peoples trust in technology. Just like the outcry that occurred when Sydney announced the driverless Metro, which actually existing in other parts of the world for two decades, but still look at the outcry including in RP.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
There are no currently commercially available driverless cars and the driverless cars that exist are all currently in labs being worked on and can not operate in normal traffic. They require there own lanes or can only operate on a racing circuit such as seen on Top Gear in one episode.

Some modern cars have a radar cruise control but this is in no way makes a car driverless. The other issue with driverless is the problem with hacking and someone other then the computer actually being in control of a car. People think that we are further along the technological road then we actually are just because Hollywood makes it look so.

Manufacturers don't want them in any case because it will mean a reduction in sales if nobody is buying a new car.
simstrain
They are not in labs, they are in the streets everyday and have been for a few years under cost test and review of the AI performance and further development. My old neighbors son in law has spent the best part of last two years sitting in a car connected to his laptop being driven around LA monitoring the latest updates while the driver sits on his hands. He works for Google.

Agree the there are various forms of definition of "driverless". The most mass roll out is cars that can drive themselves under certain circumstances and at other times hand over to the driver. About 5 years for this. Having zero driver is obviously longer, but I doubt exceed 2030, its simply moving too fast.

Its not Hollywood, if anything they are lagging as they only represent driverless cars in futuristic movies.

Driver or Driverless, you are still in a car and it still needs to be replaced with time. Why would it change the manufacturers view or demand on production?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Driverless cars also mean a loss of income for governments and business. No GST on car sales, no registration, no insurance, no fuel excise, no licenses, no tolls, no maintenance industry, no taxi drivers and so no income tax.
simstrain
Sim's we are talking driverless cars, not "beam me up Scotty"? How on earth did you come up with any of the above????
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Come back in a year and reprise your post.

I think you'll find things moving along faster than you may have thought they would.

Mike.
The IT industry has been promising the Paperless Office since the 1980's when I started to be involved professionally. Instead computers are being used to produce more paper than before.

It is true that once email became commonplace a lot of companies now email their bills rather than print them but studies have shown that most people who receive emailed bills actually print them out so the paper and costs are just borne by the customer rather than the issuing company.

A paperless office is a lot easier to achieve than a self-driving car and nobody has come up with what they will do with a system crash.  I can see gridlock as a cpu died and the car doesn't communicate to those near it to 'go around'
HardWorkingMan
I would agree on the paperless office concept lagging by many decades, but I think the paper reduced office is now approaching things are changing and changing quickly.

My phone is now most of my personal life. App to pay phone bill, App to pay power bill, I have an App to monitor and pay any traffic fines, every bank transaction I get an sms, so I don't even look at the statements anymore. I booked on my phone and will get on a international flight next week with zero paper. I go to movies, I buy on line at home and show the cinema as I walk in. Approvals for change at work have gone electronic. The fax machine at work has been removed through lack of use.

My biggest use for mail and fax is actually dealing with Australian govt departments which is a pain from UAE. In UAE, govt departments is all App and electronic for most things. Even when you go to shop, get a ticket for queue its electronic and they give you a warning via sms when your turn is coming up so you don't have to waste time waiting your turn, continue shopping.

People sit in meetings now with a extra large ipad over carrying a note book.

If the imagine on my phone is too small, one touch and its on my TV.

The newspaper and magazine industry has taken a massive hit with almost monthly announcements of another one closing or large scale job losses.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
This made my day the other week when I saw it....

https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-driving-cars/
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This made my day the other week when I saw it....

https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-driving-cars/
james.au
Why do things like this appeal to me:?:

Rhetorical question.  Don't anybody answer:!:

Smile
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand

My phone is now most of my personal life. App to pay phone bill, App to pay power bill, I have an App to monitor and pay any traffic fines, every bank transaction I get an sms, so I don't even look at the statements anymore. I booked on my phone and will get on a international flight next week with zero paper. I go to movies, I buy on line at home and show the cinema as I walk in. Approvals for change at work have gone electronic. The fax machine at work has been removed through lack of use.

My biggest use for mail and fax is actually dealing with Australian govt departments which is a pain from UAE. In UAE, govt departments is all App and electronic for most things. Even when you go to shop, get a ticket for queue its electronic and they give you a warning via sms when your turn is coming up so you don't have to waste time waiting your turn, continue shopping.

People sit in meetings now with a extra large ipad over carrying a note book.

RTT_Rules
Great for some. I am 73 and do all my banking online largely because I live in NZ but my retirement funds are in Australia where I spent my working life. However I have problems hearing on my cellphone and take forever to type a text message without a proper keyboard. I have very few apps but the phone keeps telling me they need updating and then that there is not enough memory to update.
As I was reading your message I skyped with my sister in Sydney as I do every morning (she is 83). She told me she was trying to help her friend whose husband died last week and now needs to apply for a new credit card as the dual name card has been cancelled. The bank told the lady she could only do it online. The lady owns a computer but never does any finance on it. I have a number of friends who do not own a computer and some are younger than me. I know one couple who cut up their credit card when it became tap 'n go as they do not trust it.

I have recently returned from travelling to North America. (I travel for a few months every year usually to Europe with an overnight stay in Dubai). I find airports frustrating as I try to use a machine to check in, print boarding cards and worst of all luggage labels as my arthritic fingers try to seal them round the handle. I refuse to use self service machines in supermarkets and therefore threw a item I wanted to purchase on the counter at K Mart here in Dunedin as the girl told me I had to use the self-service machine. I will not shop there again, thankfully there are alternatives.  
I am glad I will not live to see self drive cars. I do not mind driverless trains and use them often in Paris but I do not like driving at anytime (although I use to have a public passenger vehicle licence and drove buses on school excursions). Wherever possible I take the bus and wish we had passenger trains here in Dunedin. However I provide a service to older friends (80's & 90's) who have either lost their licence or do not like to drive far or at night.
The days of providing services, not on computer, are over.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

My phone is now most of my personal life. App to pay phone bill, App to pay power bill, I have an App to monitor and pay any traffic fines, every bank transaction I get an sms, so I don't even look at the statements anymore. I booked on my phone and will get on a international flight next week with zero paper. I go to movies, I buy on line at home and show the cinema as I walk in. Approvals for change at work have gone electronic. The fax machine at work has been removed through lack of use.

My biggest use for mail and fax is actually dealing with Australian govt departments which is a pain from UAE. In UAE, govt departments is all App and electronic for most things. Even when you go to shop, get a ticket for queue its electronic and they give you a warning via sms when your turn is coming up so you don't have to waste time waiting your turn, continue shopping.

People sit in meetings now with a extra large ipad over carrying a note book.
Great for some. I am 73 and do all my banking online largely because I live in NZ but my retirement funds are in Australia where I spent my working life. However I have problems hearing on my cellphone and take forever to type a text message without a proper keyboard. I have very few apps but the phone keeps telling me they need updating and then that there is not enough memory to update.
As I was reading your message I skyped with my sister in Sydney as I do every morning (she is 83). She told me she was trying to help her friend whose husband died last week and now needs to apply for a new credit card as the dual name card has been cancelled. The bank told the lady she could only do it online. The lady owns a computer but never does any finance on it. I have a number of friends who do not own a computer and some are younger than me. I know one couple who cut up their credit card when it became tap 'n go as they do not trust it.

I have recently returned from travelling to North America. (I travel for a few months every year usually to Europe with an overnight stay in Dubai). I find airports frustrating as I try to use a machine to check in, print boarding cards and worst of all luggage labels as my arthritic fingers try to seal them round the handle. I refuse to use self service machines in supermarkets and therefore threw a item I wanted to purchase on the counter at K Mart here in Dunedin as the girl told me I had to use the self-service machine. I will not shop there again, thankfully there are alternatives.  
I am glad I will not live to see self drive cars. I do not mind driverless trains and use them often in Paris but I do not like driving at anytime (although I use to have a public passenger vehicle licence and drove buses on school excursions). Wherever possible I take the bus and wish we had passenger trains here in Dunedin. However I provide a service to older friends (80's & 90's) who have either lost their licence or do not like to drive far or at night.
The days of providing services, not on computer, are over.
Brianr
Agree,
I think there is a market for some banks to offer home service for aged customers like your friend.

Sounds like your phone is old. If you don't want a new phone, you can also do it on a tablet, which is easier for fat fingers and easier to use.

When using phone banking, my suggestion connect ear phones to your device and listen than way, its easier. I do it!

With baggage label self print. Every time I've used this, especially in USA when I had to do my first time last year. The customer service lady came up and said "I've seen that look, let me help you". Generally speaking full fare airlines will provide better service.

self service checkouts. The staff are told to tell you to use, but no store has a policy you must use. Take it up with the management.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our lives, read on.

At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated,

'If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.'


In response to Bill ' s comments, General Motors issued a press release stating:

If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash.........Twice a day.

2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.

3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.

4. Occasionally, executing a manoeuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.

6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single warning light 'This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation'.

7. The airbag system would ask 'Are you sure?' before deploying.

8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

9. Every time a new car was introduced, car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

10. You'd have to press the 'Start' button to turn the engine off.

PS - I'd like to add that when all else fails, you could call 'customer service' in some foreign country and be instructed in some foreign language how to fix your car yourself!
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
On my car, phone, TV and PC I have to press the same button to turn it on as off.

However unlike my car everything else shuts down automatically if I fall asleep.
  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
I have yet to see an explanation of how a driverless car will cope when it's information is wrong (eg incorrect maps on GPS) and so far all promotional material has either shown the vehicles on freeways or suburban streets not the single-lane-each-way pot-holed roads we use in most of Australia.  Nor have any been shown to work on dirt roads.

There is (or maybe was now) one vehicle manufacturer whose warranty was invalidated by unsealed roads (excluding signposted roadworks) including their 4wd.  There may be more. Funnily enough they are one of the brands not sold in my closest town any more but then neither are most of the luxury brands either - you need to travel to Bendigo or Shepparton to buy them.

If manufacturers won't warranty dirt roads (including their 4wd) for current fleet then what hope do we have of them getting the dirt road handling self-driving cars right?

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