What are the issues with Melbourne Airport rail?

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Sep 2017 20:33
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
As has been mentioned in this thread, we seem to feel the needs to platinum coat everything we do.  The airport line is actually rather simple thinking about it again and I mention my previous post.

As you say above, Airport West to Airport with station at Terminal and Comeng services with Myki Zone 1 and there you go.  I would also electrify from the junction to Broadmeadows and think a triangle junction would be fine allowing services from the city and from Craigieburn and beynond with Vline Passengers changing at Broadmeadows and Sunshine. which covers most regional services.

4 trains per hour (I think Brisbane has 3) which should easily fit into the current network arrangements between Sunshine and SCS.

DONE.

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  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
All it needs is political will, and don't hang by your thumbs waiting.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
All it needs is political will, and don't hang by your thumbs waiting.
Valvegear

Some further context https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/airport-rail-link-is-vital
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Then what's the point when the Skybus leaves every 10 minutes all day from around 6am till midnight.

https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable/

The proposed rail service would actually offer a less frequent, less timely, therefore less convenient service to the airport.

Mike.
Mike
The train is mass transport, not personal transport. You don't run a train capable of moving +1000 people per movement with less than 100 people per train. And no, you also don't run the airport train around the clock just because the airport is open 24/7. 16-18hr a day max.

The same argument applies to rail all over the country, with the exception of the core suburban networks, buses could run more frequent and in some cases faster than rail can ever offer. If we use the Skybus argument, shut down V/line, Countrylink and QR Country services and most regional services tomorrow along with the odd suburban branch and others truncated.

Brisabane Airport train runs every 15min most of the time and previously mostly 30min, its only 15km from the city, still managed to move +1mpa despite the fact the bus trip option is there.

Fact is most people will wait 10-15min for a train easy over taking a bus that leaves immediately, even if its slightly cheaper.
RTT_Rules

So what you are saying Shane is Brisbane offers a 15 minutes service from the City to their airport even though Brisbane, leaving aside the Gold & Sunshine Coasts is about about ¼ the size of Melbourne.

Yet in the next breath you say Melbourne cannot justify a 10 minute frequency rail service to its airport. Notwithstanding the pathing issues along the Sunbury and RRL corridors of which there are many, which means a greenfield infrastructure project at Mega$$ will have to be implemented to get trains to Melbourne airport.

You will have to explain your argument a bit more convincingly.

Mike.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

@Mike or you can do it half ar..d and utilise the broad gauge freight which would be much cheaper. In any case with Melbourne Metro being constructed they will have to find a way of accommodating Bendigo services.

Michael
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Brisbane Airport train is 1/2 hourly according to their timetable https://jp.translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/timetables/train/t/airport-line so 20 minute service frequency for Melbourne is probably ok but 15 min would be best.

Can this be accommodated with current track arrangements and if not why not?
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Here's what I see: With Metro tunnel coming online in 2026, surely there will be a need for segregation of Metro and VLine paths from Sunshine to Sunbury/Gisborne. At the same time, by 2026 there will be a definite need for Airport rail. So, why can't Bendigo trains flyover before Albion, and route via Melbourne Airport? V/Line trains are more suited for luggage and semi-express services. You could terminate most trains at the Airport if you need a 10min service.

Of course this would make RRL extremely crowded, but it is signalled for 20tph, and Geelong and Airport/Bendigo would take a max 6 paths each, and only during peak for Geelong. Doable, but the current management are not up to the challenge.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Brisbane Airport train is 1/2 hourly according to their timetable https://jp.translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/timetables/train/t/airport-line so 20 minute service frequency for Melbourne is probably ok but 15 min would be best.

Can this be accommodated with current track arrangements and if not why not?
x31
Sydney does it every 10 minutes, why try to make it less frequent if it will run on seperate tracks, even if it requires some tunnelling it should be done correct to ensure the Airport line can be extended further to the outer suburbs. Long term thinking, instead of thinking of what is needed currently. Sunshine to Sunbury has V-lines running on the same track, a similar issue will occur when the Melton line is electrified. Wasn't the point of Metro tunnel and RRL to seperate lines to increase capacity on each line and reduce the chances of delays spreading unto other lines.

Just run the Airport line via the Flemington line via tunnels through to highpoint, and elevated rail along the creek, towards the airport. Yes may require even Quadding the Craigeburn line, and connecting the track to Southern Cross. But this is far by the best option and the benefits are huge, revitalising car dependent suburbs in the north west, encourage developers at the old RAAF site to encourage those to use transport, and because it is seperate able to extend it further to the growth of Craigeburn west.
This obviously was ruled out in airport study, but as this project continually gets delayed, the cost vs benefit ratio will swing in favour of tunnelling, due to underestimating the increase demand on public transport.
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

Where are the obvious votes in a railway link to Melbourne airport? Are there any marginal seats that building a rail link will tip either way?
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

If Melbourne Airport reaches 100 movements (takeoffs & landings) an hour during peaks, at an average of 250 passengers per plane, that equates to 25,000 passengers an hour. 6 x 1000-passenger trains per hour (every 10 mins) gives a capacity of 6,000 passengers per hour in each direction or 12,000 per hour total. Depending on the balance between arriving and departing passengers, rail could accommodate from 25% to 50% of the airport passengers with a 10 min headway.

Any comparison of Melbourne and Sydney Airports is difficult. For example, Sydney is ~6 km from the city whereas Melbourne is ~18km. It is only a short trip from Sydney Airport to Central to access the rest of the rail network, while a Melbourne traveller is likely to spend 30 mins getting to Southern Cross to do the same. Sydney's rail link provides direct access for a significant portion of the population to the south.

A bit pie-in-the-sky but if the airport end was above ground, similar to Brisbane, and the route went via Sunshine, hourly VLocitys direct from Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo could be considered. Unfortunately it would require an elaborate and expensive flyover at Sunshine.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

If Melbourne Airport reaches 100 movements (takeoffs & landings) an hour during peaks, at an average of 250 passengers per plane, that equates to 25,000 passengers an hour. 6 x 1000-passenger trains per hour (every 10 mins) gives a capacity of 6,000 passengers per hour in each direction or 12,000 per hour total. Depending on the balance between arriving and departing passengers, rail could accommodate from 25% to 50% of the airport passengers with a 10 min headway.

Any comparison of Melbourne and Sydney Airports is difficult. For example, Sydney is ~6 km from the city whereas Melbourne is ~18km. It is only a short trip from Sydney Airport to Central to access the rest of the rail network, while a Melbourne traveller is likely to spend 30 mins getting to Southern Cross to do the same. Sydney's rail link provides direct access for a significant portion of the population to the south.

A bit pie-in-the-sky but if the airport end was above ground, similar to Brisbane, and the route went via Sunshine, hourly VLocitys direct from Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo could be considered. Unfortunately it would require an elaborate and expensive flyover at Sunshine.
kitchgp
Why can't it just run elevated along the Tullamarine Freeway? Or use part way tunnel to Highpoint and follow the alignment of a nearby creek.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Why do we need tunnels and a rolls Royce solution?

Build the line to the airport from Jacana as stated above and run trains into and out of SCS.  Then later build in more capacity.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Why do we need tunnels and a rolls Royce solution?

Build the line to the airport from Jacana as stated above and run trains into and out of SCS.  Then later build in more capacity.
x31
Simple extra capacity now, so it doesn't need to be built later on. You wouldn't need a third track on the Craigeburn line, or HCS implemented on that corridor later or rely on reconfiguring the city loop (which still good on its own merits).

It would need to be extended to Craigeburn western edge eventually to serve the new housing estates in the north, and connect with V-lines corridors in the future. Regional Rail Link 2. Linking the Airport with the Bendigo and Shepperaton lines. Tunnels Vline can't run in tunnels, well the idea is it would use the Albion freight corridor then onto the RRL corridor, whereas the Metro trains use the tunnel direct.

Metro tunnel that came about as a rolls Royce solution to increase capacity on another two corridors. Expensive but its happening anyways, even though costing $10 billion.

Level crossing removals, some are having many extra treatments due to politics, but benefit anyways. Even the cost benefit ratio didn't show a return. I don't see many people against it (doesn't count NIMBYs) generally.

In fact going cheap was the problem with the Broadmeadows extension, stuff had to be added soon afterwards. The Westona extension could of went to Point cooke but opted the cheap option to go to Laverton. Finally by having the railway in the centre of median of a freeway in Perth although cheap does have negative impacts such as coverage, relying mostly on buses, big park and rides.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The very simple reason that a rail link is needed is for the inevitable day when, for example, a petrol tanker rolls on the Tullamarine Freeway, and no traffic can get through in either direction.
There has to be more than one easy and convenient way from the CBD to the Airport.
The secondary benefit is less traffic on the road.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

@James974 the Craigieburn corridor is a growth and hence that is why the Transport Plan wish to divert VLine services to the Upfield line.

An opportunity exists to utilize the broad gauge freight infrastructure and divert Seymour, Shepparton and Bendigo lines through the airport. Tunnelling is expensive and the Metro tunnel is being built to relieve the city loop which will provide extra capacity for the Northern and Caulfield groups. The airport line on its own just serving the airport has none of those benefits. No one is gping ro spend huge amounts of money tunnelling for a dedicated train to the airport.

1
  kitchgp Deputy Commissioner

The very simple reason that a rail link is needed is for the inevitable day when, for example, a petrol tanker rolls on the Tullamarine Freeway, and no traffic can get through in either direction. ................
Valvegear

An alternative route, Airport Drive Extension, was opened 12 months or so ago.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Why do we need tunnels and a rolls Royce solution?

1. Build the line to the airport from Jacana as stated above and run trains into and out of SCS.  Then later build in more capacity.


2. The Westona extension could of went to Point Cook but opted the cheap option to go to Laverton.
James974

1. The Craigieburn line is at capacity...there are NO slots to accommodate airport trains.

2. When the line from Westona to Laverton was opened over 30 years ago, the only houses at Point Cook were beach shacks and the RAAF base was a functioning entity. There was no suburb...and no traffic along the single lane Aviation Road/Point Cook Road.

Mike.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

But Ive seen maps, showing that the route may have went to Altona Meadows, and could of possibly went to point Cooke later.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
An alternative route, Airport Drive Extension, was opened 12 months or so ago.
"kitchgp"
Great, provided you can easily get to where it starts.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
We need double decker trains on the Sunbury and Melton lines so there'll be enough capacity in the rail tunnel to run single deck trains to the airport.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

We need double decker trains on the Sunbury and Melton lines so there'll be enough capacity in the rail tunnel to run single deck trains to the airport.
Gauntlet
I don't get why so many disagree with this, but since the Metro tunnels, will not built for double decks unlike the city loop, I don't see how they would be running on that line. Maybe if we built a segregated new rail line possibly be for double deck, such as the new Airport rail link. New dedicated direct route that may be built for double deck trains. I don't really care I am criticised about tunnel via Highpoint route, but its my opinion that is the best option, Second best would be either via Albion or via the Tullmarine freeway median. Any options would require a lot of money spent, since it will still require modifying existing infrastructure, maybe not as expensive but have less demand. Tunnels to train station into the central area of surburb would attract more commuters and not just airline visitors/employees making it more profitable in the longer term, making up for the extra costs.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

10 trains an hour to Airport with few other stops???? Since when does the airport need a capacity of 12,000 to 15,000 people per hour in one direction?

If you have a 737 land every 3min that's 4000-6000 per hour arrivals for which PT rail will be happy to get 30-35%.

Try 4 (maybe even 3) trains per hour on start up with future expansion to 6 trains/h.

Then what's the point when the Skybus leaves every 10 minutes all day from around 6am till midnight.

https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable/

The proposed rail service would actually offer a less frequent, less timely, therefore less convenient service to the airport.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Or you could make the train arrive on platform 8 at SCS, and the train be one or two carriages. You should have the train stop at other stations along the way. Idea: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BkgotxTk4XRRvca87p9WjlLWPiU&usp=sharing. Every second train would run limited express, regardless of peak or not, with every train stopping at Sunshine, Footscray and North Melbourne, and terminating as SC. Please tell me to add or remove stations. Smile
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

10 trains an hour to Airport with few other stops???? Since when does the airport need a capacity of 12,000 to 15,000 people per hour in one direction?

If you have a 737 land every 3min that's 4000-6000 per hour arrivals for which PT rail will be happy to get 30-35%.

Try 4 (maybe even 3) trains per hour on start up with future expansion to 6 trains/h.

Then what's the point when the Skybus leaves every 10 minutes all day from around 6am till midnight.

https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable/

The proposed rail service would actually offer a less frequent, less timely, therefore less convenient service to the airport.

Mike.
Or you could make the train arrive on platform 8 at SCS, and the train be one or two carriages. You should have the train stop at other stations along the way. Idea: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BkgotxTk4XRRvca87p9WjlLWPiU&usp=sharing. Every second train would run limited express, regardless of peak or not, with every train stopping at Sunshine, Footscray and North Melbourne, and terminating as SC. Please tell me to add or remove stations. Smile
Mr Gus Meister
Lets say we use this route, express SCS to North Melbourne then to Footscray, then express Footscray to Sunshine. Remove Albion station, Rename Albion North to Sunshine North, Move Kelior East north, move Airport west station to replace the one called Stratmore. Rename Gladstone Park to Tullamarine. Also add a potential connection for Shepparton service to use the Airport line.

As I said before this a temp solution until how they can address the capacity at Sunshine. I personally just tunnelled half the route even if it costed double than it should. I have made my case awhile that it can run tunnel via Highpoint and be elevated running along Steele creek. Plus you'd only need to build three stations + Melb airport. And will not disrupt services at Sunshine.
  MetroFemme Chief Train Controller

Reading posts on this thread and not being from rail industry but still working in admin side of construction which is where my interest lies you could be excused for thinking we are trying to build a channel tunnel between two countries. Construction projects in this state are so overpriced because the industry is good at selling how big the work is. Building a rail link to the airport can be easily done from jacana as people have mentioned. There will never be V/line services running via the airport and exchanging passengers from V/line services at sunshine is a good idea.

I cannot believe the way these projects are talked I to the billion dollar plus category.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Claiming the Metro tunnel is required for airport rail is a complete hack cop out.

We have quad track to Sunshine already, as well as all the platforms at Southern Cross we could ever need - there's nothing preventing the airport link being built now.  We should start on the other amplification needed on the network now instead of feigning surprise when western growth continues - in terms of groups we have:

***Sunbury / Wyndham Vale***

Quad track should be provided beyond Sunshine to Deer Park Junction and Albion Junction to eliminate any interaction between the two track pairs currently leading to Sunshine from the city.  The RRL should simply revert to a suburban line and be filled out with something on the order of eight stations between Sunshine and Werribee as the Wyndham region continues to grow.  Upon completion, this would share the Metro tunnel with the Sunbury line, which could be extended northward if desired to provide further suburban growth.  Providing 8-10tph to each branch would hardly be difficult.

***Melton & Ballarat / Airport & Bendigo / Seymour (SG)***

The other track pair to Sunshine could provide the suburban service to Melton, with up to five intermediate stops between Sunshine and Melton (Deer Park and Ardeer served by Wyndham Vale services).  Double track would be sufficient between Caroline Springs and Melton as Ballarat express services would struggle to catch up to all stops services.  The rest of the line's capacity would be devoted to Airport services, extending out towards Bendigo (rejoining the existing line north of Sunbury), as well as all regional services to the northeast.  Since this would be segregated from the greater suburban network, it could provide a simple means of converting the regional network to standard gauge.

***Werribee & Geelong***

With only four intermediate stops between Newport and Werribee (replacing Aircraft with Derrimut Rd) there is no reason for the service to Geelong to be anything other than an extension of an all stops service to Werribee (especially considering the length of suburban services such as Pakenham and Frankston).  Providing a direct connection between Southern Cross and Newport would result in a substantial decrease in journey time as well as opening up Fishermans Bend by allowing for an intermediate station.

***Craigieburn / Upfield***

These could be considered paired sharing the northern loop once Footscray services leave to use the new tunnel.  To serve growth beyond Craigieburn, one could either extend the current line northward to Wallan (with three intermediate stops currently planned), or alternatively run services express via Albion.  Access to the airport for residents in the city's north could be provided by rerouting the Upfield line there via Campbellfield, Broadmeadows, and Gladstone Park.  In any case, stick one of these routes on the viaduct and you've got two metro routes with little difficulty.

...

The service between Williamstown and Footscray is not sufficiently large to require anything more than a light rail service, whilst the Altona Loop is better served by buses.  The capacity issues are greatly exaggerated, and even without the metro tunnel it is not difficult to provide a service on the order of 10tph to most locations - complete metrofication by isolation of each branch is not outside the realms of possibility.  Providing six tracks to Sunshine may eventually be required, and could be provided for using low clearance swing bridges across the Yarra to connect the docks (including Webb Dock) to the freight rail network and reprovisioning the existing freight pair through Footscray for passenger purposes.  Additionally, for rail services to be provided to the airport, additional trackwork for freight services will need to be provided between Sunshine and Jacana, but again, not an insurmountable challenge, and not something for which the metro tunnel is a prerequisite.

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