Warning: information honey trap

 
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Many of you would be aware that there are quite detailed entries in Wikipedia on railway lines and stations around Australia. Most of these accurately show the official railway station distances from the "central" station in each system, including in NSW.

However, I would caution that some genius has done a rundown on the southern/East Hills line interurban sector from Central to Goulburn and used straight line ("as the crow flies") distances instead of rail distances, not only in the article on the line but the articles on individual stations. This person seems to have only done that section of line, as a cursory check suggests other lines are OK, including the southern south of Goulburn. I hope they don't extend their unhelpful work to other lines.

For those of you who don't have the official or archival station data etc, this is a source that details can be checked against (under "location search"):

http://www.nswrail.net/

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  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Many of you would be aware that there are quite detailed entries in Wikipedia on railway lines and stations around Australia. Most of these accurately show the official railway station distances from the "central" station in each system, including in NSW.

However, I would caution that some genius has done a rundown on the southern/East Hills line interurban sector from Central to Goulburn and used straight line ("as the crow flies") distances instead of rail distances, not only in the article on the line but the articles on individual stations. This person seems to have only done that section of line, as a cursory check suggests other lines are OK, including the southern south of Goulburn. I hope they don't extend their unhelpful work to other lines.

For those of you who don't have the official or archival station data etc, this is a source that details can be checked against (under "location search"):

http://www.nswrail.net/
tonyp
It also doesn't help when there is ambiguity as to which distance marker you should use.  Is it the distance from the zero point of the branch or from central?   For the main south is the distance via regents park, granville or east hills.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For the main south the distance is probably via east hills as that is now called the new main south. Every Endeavour, Xplorer and XPT now use this path into Central except during trackwork.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

For the main south the distance is probably via east hills as that is now called the new main south. Every Endeavour, Xplorer and XPT now use this path into Central except during trackwork.
simstrain
I've told you this before.  The east hills line has not changed it name.  It is main route passenger trains take to get to sydney central but thats it.  12 long distance passenger trains a day is nowhere near enough to warrant a name change.  Freight still goes via the main south.   The airport line section is  officially the "new southern line".  

All official distances are from central via the main south. (ie, lidcombe-regents park-cabramatta-glenfield-campletown etc)
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Why is it a honey trap? are you even aware of what a honey trap refers to?

A quick look at the WWW indicates that the term has no bearing on whatever it is you are whinging about?
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
So if a sexy girl with an eastern European accent asks me about distances on the East Hills line I should just run the other way?
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

So if a sexy girl with an eastern European accent asks me about distances on the East Hills line I should just run the other way?
billybaxter
Could only recommend it
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

So if a sexy girl with an eastern European accent asks me about distances on the East Hills line I should just run the other way?
billybaxter
Only after giving you her $1000 to help her sick father.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For the main south the distance is probably via east hills as that is now called the new main south. Every Endeavour, Xplorer and XPT now use this path into Central except during trackwork.
I've told you this before.  The east hills line has not changed it name.  It is main route passenger trains take to get to sydney central but thats it.  12 long distance passenger trains a day is nowhere near enough to warrant a name change.  Freight still goes via the main south.   The airport line section is  officially the "new southern line".  

All official distances are from central via the main south. (ie, lidcombe-regents park-cabramatta-glenfield-campletown etc)
tazzer96

I have also told you before that you are out of date with naming in Sydney and this map here explains what is happening with line names in Sydney as of the new timetable. Note that the East Hills name no longer exists. Official rail distances have nothing to do with naming schemes and the airport line is not the main south but the path heading north at wolli creek through tempe and Sydenham is the new main south.

Most freight trains use the new freight line and not the old main south north of macarthur with only local intermodal traffic and freight using the y link at granville using this path any more. The old main south officially now goes by the name Leppington so while it is just called the leppington line at the moment. I think it will most likely be renamed to south west rail line some time in the future.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

What is put on a timetable for the general public to look is at is very different to a working timetable, or line diagrams which are detailed.   If you are going to trust the naming of the services which the lines have, where is liverpool?  Is it on the bankstown line, the leppington line, the south line, or the cumberland line?   It's serviced by trains which run those services, but the physical place is on the main south line.  

http://www.asa.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/asa/asa-standards/ts-toc-2-v10.0.pdf
Have a look at this, updated 7th september 2017

Just found out waratahs aren't permitted on the eastern suburbs line.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

So if a sexy girl with an eastern European accent asks me about distances on the East Hills line I should just run the other way?
Only after giving you her $1000 to help her sick father.
tazzer96
For $1000 I'd want the chance to counsel her about her life choices.Shocked
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
And Transport NSW has 3 different names again:

https://transportnsw.info/plan/help-with-planning/key-to-icons-line-colours#accordion-train-line-abbreviation-code-key-content

In the Rolf Bozier version (nswrail.net), the Main Line that went to the South of the state originally went via Granville,  as the line from Regents Park to Cabramatta wasn't built until 1924. Later on Country Passenger trains diverted via Regents Park. Freight depended where it originated from as to which route it followed. The East Hills to Glenfield link came into use during the 1980's and as we know, Regional and Interstate passenger trains to/from the south now use that route.

The name "Main South" dropped out of official use (if indeed it ever was official) some time ago, and is now known by different names by different users.

Transport NSW, as linked above, have 3 variants, JHR have another, as does ARTC. Various Gunzels will have theirs too.

Similarly, I think you will find that the Main Routes in other directions have various names as well.

Perhaps if anyone is so concerned with the 'official' name of a given line, then they should write to THNSW and ask for their version. I wont be.



As to Wikipedia, it is not an official source of anything, whatever the subject matter, and anyone can edit or create a Wikipedia page, as long as Wikipedia rules are followed.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Liverpool is on the Bankstown, Leppington and Cumberland lines. It will no longer be on the south line as of the new timetable.

Waratahs can go on the ESR since Oscars (H sets) are able to go there. Sector one doesn't have the extra amps to drive frequent 4g rolling-stock which is why only the occasional Oscar finds it's way to the ESR and the illawarra line. This is the reason why all suburban passenger services on the illawarra are Tangara's.

Times are changing on the old main south. With the south west metro essentially cutting passenger services along this corridor there are rumblings about the whole sefton triangle corridor being turned into light rail and the main south may not even be a rail line in the not too distant future.

Space freed up by converting to light rail will allow the freight line to be duplicated from Sefton to Cabramatta. Qube are building an intermodal at Moorebank which will close the Yennora and minto yards and remove any remaining freight that uses the old main south onto the SSFL.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Waratahs can go on the ESR since Oscars (H sets) are able to go there. Sector one doesn't have the extra amps to drive frequent 4g rolling-stock which is why only the occasional Oscar finds it's way to the ESR and the illawarra line. This is the reason why all suburban passenger services on the illawarra are Tangara's.
simstrain
The document quoted above says "Waratah (A) sets not permitted on Eastern Suburbs Rail line between Erskineville Junction and Bondi Junction (Electrical and Signalling restrictions)."  What does the (A) mean?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As per information from the SETS facebook page they are not allowed there normally because Illawarra crew are not trained on them. There is no technical reason they can't go onto the ESR. As I type this I am looking at a picture on the sets FB page of a Waratah at an ESR station. During trackwork they have been known to go to Bondi with the appropriate crew.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

On the SETS facebook group page you can see several photos of waratahs on the esr. One picture is of A47 at Bondi Junction and another has either a57 or 67 at martin place.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Liverpool is on the Bankstown, Leppington and Cumberland lines. It will no longer be on the south line as of the new timetable.

Times are changing on the old main south. With the south west metro essentially cutting passenger services along this corridor there are rumblings about the whole sefton triangle corridor being turned into light rail and the main south may not even be a rail line in the not too distant future.

Space freed up by converting to light rail will allow the freight line to be duplicated from Sefton to Cabramatta. Qube are building an intermodal at Moorebank which will close the Yennora and minto yards and remove any remaining freight that uses the old main south onto the SSFL.
simstrain
The Main South begins at Granville, whatever traffic may or may not use it is irrelevant.
Sims, if you truly want to be knowledgable about the NSWRailways, ignore marketing spin in the public TT and other public relations propaganda.

Incidentally Sims, the end of the Mn Sth is at Albury, where is the end of the Mn West, Bourke ...., or Broken Hill? I don't want to hear what you think it ought to be. Reply when you know, citing your reference.
  Spletsie Chief Commissioner

Kilometre posts along the length of the Southern line to the border indicate distances measured via Granville.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Waratahs can go on the ESR since Oscars (H sets) are able to go there. Sector one doesn't have the extra amps to drive frequent 4g rolling-stock which is why only the occasional Oscar finds it's way to the ESR and the illawarra line. This is the reason why all suburban passenger services on the illawarra are Tangara's.
The document quoted above says "Waratah (A) sets not permitted on Eastern Suburbs Rail line between Erskineville Junction and Bondi Junction (Electrical and Signalling restrictions)."  What does the (A) mean?
duttonbay
Probably as in A-sets.   OScars are a regular on the ESR anyway during the weekends and weekday peaks due to south coast services.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Why is it a honey trap? are you even aware of what a honey trap refers to?
theanimal
I can see that I succeeded in grabbing your attention Wink

Obviously, distances on the main south have to take into account and specify whether they are via Regents Park, East Hills etc. I'm sure you guys know enough to work all that out. The purpose of my post (apart from apparently promoting the services of eastern European girls) was trying to be helpful by drawing attention to the fact that some noob has used straight line distances in southern highlands entries and recommending caution should anybody be using the Wikipedia references for research.

It's OK, nobody needs to thank me, but a small donation into my account with the Plovdiv People's Bank would be appreciated. Smile
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
I would kindly like to link you to 2 pages.


The top link is the naming of the physical railway line. The bottom link talks about the new network map. Simstrain, just because the network map is changing doesn't mean that the physical line changes. The East Hills line is not the Main South. Just because the XPTs and Xplorers go through there doesn't mean it is the Main South. Your link is broken so I don't know where you got your facts from or who told you that rubbish.

T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6, T7 and T8 is not the name of the railway line but the name of the service.

The DRKD (the proper stuff that isn't about new timetables and talks about the physical railway line) states that the Old Main South (Cumberland) line starts at Granville and finishes at Cabramatta. The Cumberland Service will go between Leppington and Richmond via the Cumberland (Old Main South) line. The Main South goes between Central and Albury via Regents Park. The Main West does not go to Broken Hill. The East Hills line goes between Glenfield and Tempe. The Leppington line is also known as the South West Rail Link.

I hope that Broken Hill is on the Broken Hill line. Funny, isn't it?

Liverpool is on the Main South and will be served by Cumberland, Bankstown, Leppington and City via Granville services.


Waratahs can go on the ESR since Oscars (H sets) are able to go there.
simstrain
What does that have to do with it? Just because Oscars go there doesn't mean Waratahs can, even if they are both modern trains.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Railway mileages for the south were (and as far as I know still are) measured via Granville which is the original junction of the Great Southern and Western Railways. Since then there have been some renamings, such as Granville-Cabramatta becoming Old Main South or Cumberland Line, but as far as I know these haven't changed the mileage measurements. So that's the status of official distances.

A separate discussion is actual services which have variously run over the years via Granville, Regent Park, East Hills and Airport. If you need to analyse, for example, the performance of a service, you'll be most interested in the mileages on the section of line/s on which they run. This shouldn't involve recalculating the official station distances (via Granville), but making an adjustment at Glenfield which is the common point for all routes. Glenfield is 41.93 km from Central by the official (via Granville) measurement, but 33.0 km from Central via Sydenham and East Hills. The difference between these two figures is what you need to factor in when assessing how far in total the train has travelled further out along the line.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Why is it a honey trap? are you even aware of what a honey trap refers to?
I can see that I succeeded in grabbing your attention Wink

Obviously, distances on the main south have to take into account and specify whether they are via Regents Park, East Hills etc. I'm sure you guys know enough to work all that out. The purpose of my post (apart from apparently promoting the services of eastern European girls) was trying to be helpful by drawing attention to the fact that some noob has used straight line distances in southern highlands entries and recommending caution should anybody be using the Wikipedia references for research.

It's OK, nobody needs to thank me, but a small donation into my account with the Plovdiv People's Bank would be appreciated. Smile
tonyp
Will you promise to use the money to identify gaps in your knowledge, and put in place strategies to address these gaps?
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Will you promise to use the money to identify gaps in your knowledge, and put in place strategies to address these gaps?
theanimal
Without wanting to disturb your lexicological high ground, the meaning you refer to is simply an evolution of the original which was a broad popular description of genus of plants that lured insects to them - a term that was then taken up for use with other connotations generally having in common a tempting bait that might attract people to something. In this case an apparently easy (but wrong) source of railway mileage information in a Wikipedia article.

Sheesh, the lengths you have to go to to innocently pass on helpful cautions!
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Are you sure you're not thinking of a Venus Fly Trap?

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