North Terrace Trams

 
  62440 Deputy Commissioner

See https://indaily.com.au/news/2017/10/09/why-sa-is-missing-out-on-a-seamless-cbd-tram-network/ looks like nobody saw this announcement (where was it?). $20M does not sound a lot in the grand scheme of things. So no trams from Glenelg to oRAH without a 200m walk or a cross platform change at ARS and double back.

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  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Remember the North stub branch will not actually reach the Oval for a few years as its only being built 100m or so long and this is barely long enough to even justify a stop. I'd call it a shunt neck out of the way of the main line.
RTT_Rules
The King William Road stub will be 350 metres long, placing the stop tentatively named Festival Plaza stop north of Festival Drive and adjacent to the top end of Elder Park and a 390m walk from the eastern gates of Adelaide Oval. I've written to DPTI suggesting that Elder Park would be a better name for that stop since it won't actually be next to the Plaza and will be about the same walking distance to the centre of the Plaza as the ARS tram stop.

The main use will be for southbound services after big events at Adelaide Oval or Elder Park, but using it as a shunt neck to start weekday afternoon peak services to Glenelg (and to Norwood/Magill once the next stages of EastLINK are built) also has merit.

With the way that people disperse from Adelaide Oval or Elder Park in the city direction after a big event, I think that's as close as you would want it to the Oval. It will still be closer than the departure stops for many of the AO/AOX buses along the section of King William Rd going right up to North Tce.

I expect that the stop for Adelaide Oval would be just south of Pennington Terrace, about 180m walking distance from the eastern gates.

Post-event services would best operate the route as two separate lines with no through service for about an hour after the event finishes. There will be enough room on the northbound track between North Tce and Festival Dr (outside Parliament House) for four trams to queue up and wait for entry to a platform, and the same between Kermode St and Pennington Tce for trams to head north. They can then leave as soon as they are full, just like AO/AOX buses.

DO we need a North to East connection? Well as this stub branch is only to be built 650m long (for now), no. What about the future? Would depend on the extension route and time frame. If we are talking 10+ years, forget it. Build it when its needed as both the northern and eastern branches need to be extended for this to be of use.
RTT_Rules
The eastern branch (stage 1 of EastLINK) is actually 970 metres long, 650m would only get you just past Pulteney St.

I think the N>E connection has been included because planning for the next stages of EastLINK (to Norwood and Magill) is well underway, including service patterns.  The N>E connection will be useful for services after big events, and for starting peak extras from Elder Park.

I'm not sure what the govt is looking at doing scheduling wise. From what I saw there was alot of continuous ridership through the intersection. So it will be interesting to see how these branches are timetabled.
RTT_Rules
I wouldn't rule out trams from Glenelg to the East End going via a reversal at Elder Park, or South Terrace to East End shuttles doing the same.

Melbourne has a couple of tram routes which reverse direction on the way, and the delay is no worse that the delays experienced in Adelaide because the traffic signals on timed sequences with no priority for trams.
  DJPeters Locomotive Driver

I must apologize here as I read what was in the paper here the wrong way it was written that the King William Road extension would be deferred until after the North Terrace part was built.  I only had a quick look at that article and so assumed that it was a no go seeing the word deferred.

But now that it is going ahead and the transport Dept in this state is still looking at converting the Outer Harbor railway line to a tram line at some time. Yes we all know that in the footy season it will not cope though. But anyway extend the tram line towards Adelaide oval and turn into Memorial Drive with a stop provided at the Oval, now if the tram line continues down Memorial Drive it eventually almost lines up with the new Outer Harbor line dive that is being installed now.

So a simple change of gauge to the existing train line and a bit of slewing and work near the new dive and the tram line can be installed for a pittance almost. The transport minister here has hinted that the tramline proposal could still go ahead as the new station at Port Adelaide he said could at a later date be converted into a tram type station if needed.

Another junction would then be needed to be installed at the King William Road/Memorial drive intersection though so that a further extension was possible up to North Adelaide and further on!
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I must apologize here as I read what was in the paper here the wrong way it was written that the King William Road extension would be deferred until after the North Terrace part was built.  I only had a quick look at that article and so assumed that it was a no go seeing the word deferred.

But now that it is going ahead and the transport Dept in this state is still looking at converting the Outer Harbor railway line to a tram line at some time. Yes we all know that in the footy season it will not cope though. But anyway extend the tram line towards Adelaide oval and turn into Memorial Drive with a stop provided at the Oval, now if the tram line continues down Memorial Drive it eventually almost lines up with the new Outer Harbor line dive that is being installed now.

So a simple change of gauge to the existing train line and a bit of slewing and work near the new dive and the tram line can be installed for a pittance almost. The transport minister here has hinted that the tramline proposal could still go ahead as the new station at Port Adelaide he said could at a later date be converted into a tram type station if needed.

Another junction would then be needed to be installed at the King William Road/Memorial drive intersection though so that a further extension was possible up to North Adelaide and further on!
DJPeters

The sole time I was in Adelaide in my life was to visit the lutheran archives at bowen. All I can say is you should be pushing for the line to be converted to trams because the grange line you call a train line now is nothing but a pathetic excuse for a train line.

I didn't realise that the tram line that was outside my hotel went all the way to the entertainment centre as the street directory I bought only showed it running to the front of my hotel. Luckily the lady at the archives told my brother and I about the tram and so I enjoyed the much more frequent and better tram journey back into the mall that didn't require me having to wait for half an hour at bowen station waiting for a diesel spewing train.

The trams would be more then capable of handling footy traffic in your otherwise beautiful city.
  DJPeters Locomotive Driver

We would need a lot more trams though than what is at present as three car trains or more on the Outer Harbor line during Football season when a game is on at Adelaide Oval are packed tight before they even get to Port Adelaide Station let alone the rest of the way to Adelaide!

Accidentally have had to travel on a few of these trains  either Crows or Port Power.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
I must apologize here as I read what was in the paper here the wrong way it was written that the King William Road extension would be deferred until after the North Terrace part was built.  I only had a quick look at that article and so assumed that it was a no go seeing the word deferred.

But now that it is going ahead and the transport Dept in this state is still looking at converting the Outer Harbor railway line to a tram line at some time. Yes we all know that in the footy season it will not cope though. But anyway extend the tram line towards Adelaide oval and turn into Memorial Drive with a stop provided at the Oval, now if the tram line continues down Memorial Drive it eventually almost lines up with the new Outer Harbor line dive that is being installed now.

So a simple change of gauge to the existing train line and a bit of slewing and work near the new dive and the tram line can be installed for a pittance almost. The transport minister here has hinted that the tramline proposal could still go ahead as the new station at Port Adelaide he said could at a later date be converted into a tram type station if needed.

Another junction would then be needed to be installed at the King William Road/Memorial drive intersection though so that a further extension was possible up to North Adelaide and further on!

The sole time I was in Adelaide in my life was to visit the lutheran archives at bowen. All I can say is you should be pushing for the line to be converted to trams because the grange line you call a train line now is nothing but a pathetic excuse for a train line.

I didn't realise that the tram line that was outside my hotel went all the way to the entertainment centre as the street directory I bought only showed it running to the front of my hotel. Luckily the lady at the archives told my brother and I about the tram and so I enjoyed the much more frequent and better tram journey back into the mall that didn't require me having to wait for half an hour at bowen station waiting for a diesel spewing train.

The trams would be more then capable of handling footy traffic in your otherwise beautiful city.
simstrain
Why the hell waste money in converting the Outer Harbour and Grange lines to a slower LR system? Surely Adelaide and its cash strapped govt has at least 1,000,000 better things to do with its very limited cash flows.

The emissions of the diesel trains can be resolved with electrification, which has to be done regardless if you want tram or sparks, ironically the railway O/H is cheaper if 25kV as you only need one sub and feeder.

The time taken to get from the city to Bowden station is around 10-15min by tram, (note its nearly 1hr from Bowden to Glenelg) compared to the 5min or so now by rail. The line is 22km long, this is far outside the ideal for Light rail who's only saving grace is that at least most of it will be off-street running.

Its not like on-street running will be introduced at any point on the line.

Conversion of the this line is nothing more than complete waste of money for absolutely zero benefit if not travel time will be worse.

Regards
Shane
  DJPeters Locomotive Driver

I think that we all can see it is a gross waste of money and will not hold up under the strain in the future either. But those idiots in that building in North Terrace on the corner opposite Govt House think that it is the bee's knee's though. They would sell their own family if they could win votes doing it!
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
Remember the North stub branch will not actually reach the Oval for a few years as its only being built 100m or so long and this is barely long enough to even justify a stop. I'd call it a shunt neck out of the way of the main line.
The King William Road stub will be 350 metres long, placing the stop tentatively named Festival Plaza stop north of Festival Drive and adjacent to the top end of Elder Park and a 390m walk from the eastern gates of Adelaide Oval. I've written to DPTI suggesting that Elder Park would be a better name for that stop since it won't actually be next to the Plaza and will be about the same walking distance to the centre of the Plaza as the ARS tram stop.

The main use will be for southbound services after big events at Adelaide Oval or Elder Park, but using it as a shunt neck to start weekday afternoon peak services to Glenelg (and to Norwood/Magill once the next stages of EastLINK are built) also has merit.

With the way that people disperse from Adelaide Oval or Elder Park in the city direction after a big event, I think that's as close as you would want it to the Oval. It will still be closer than the departure stops for many of the AO/AOX buses along the section of King William Rd going right up to North Tce.

I expect that the stop for Adelaide Oval would be just south of Pennington Terrace, about 180m walking distance from the eastern gates.

Post-event services would best operate the route as two separate lines with no through service for about an hour after the event finishes. There will be enough room on the northbound track between North Tce and Festival Dr (outside Parliament House) for four trams to queue up and wait for entry to a platform, and the same between Kermode St and Pennington Tce for trams to head north. They can then leave as soon as they are full, just like AO/AOX buses.

DO we need a North to East connection? Well as this stub branch is only to be built 650m long (for now), no. What about the future? Would depend on the extension route and time frame. If we are talking 10+ years, forget it. Build it when its needed as both the northern and eastern branches need to be extended for this to be of use.
The eastern branch (stage 1 of EastLINK) is actually 970 metres long, 650m would only get you just past Pulteney St.

I think the N>E connection has been included because planning for the next stages of EastLINK (to Norwood and Magill) is well underway, including service patterns.  The N>E connection will be useful for services after big events, and for starting peak extras from Elder Park.

I'm not sure what the govt is looking at doing scheduling wise. From what I saw there was alot of continuous ridership through the intersection. So it will be interesting to see how these branches are timetabled.
I wouldn't rule out trams from Glenelg to the East End going via a reversal at Elder Park, or South Terrace to East End shuttles doing the same.

Melbourne has a couple of tram routes which reverse direction on the way, and the delay is no worse that the delays experienced in Adelaide because the traffic signals on timed sequences with no priority for trams.
justapassenger
Thanks for this feedback

The distances I quoted is what I saw on the initial press releases. It would appear some common sense has taken over.

Yes a Grand Union looks nice and great for bragging rights, but simply not needed for Adelaide likely for decades to come.

The reason grand unions exist is because multiple lines conversion in one location. You won't have every 3rd tram from Glenelg headed in each direction on a rotational basis or from any other side of the intersection.

From what I saw on our 1 return trip with lunch at Glenelg the traffic either side of the intersection seemed almost balanced. ie it wasn't lightly loaded headed one side and more loaded on the other, maybe slightly more headed south than North West which would make sense as the railway takes the more distance travellers to the NW and to the south well, the line used to be the railway. So having some starters from near the Oval may make sense.

Not sure whole the Eastern Branch is best served, probably starting from the 3rd platform from the western stop on Nth Terrace. Not sure if extra services are needed to the Entertainment Centre unless something is happening.

Would be interesting to know what the plan is for Nth Adelaide, surely this route is a give, run up KW and then O'Connell then loop west to around Wellington Square and back  to O'connell on a different road to create a large Balloon Loop. This puts most within a 8min walk of a tram stop.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Sorry to break it to you guys, but rebuilding the railway to take trams to the port is now off the table for the foreseeable future.

I agree that the Grange line is a disgrace, which is why consideration is being given to replacing it with a Grange Road tram line that may also get a branch to West Lakes.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

From what I saw on our 1 return trip with lunch at Glenelg the traffic either side of the intersection seemed almost balanced. ie it wasn't lightly loaded headed one side and more loaded on the other, maybe slightly more headed south than North West which would make sense as the railway takes the more distance travellers to the NW and to the south well, the line used to be the railway. So having some starters from near the Oval may make sense.

Not sure whole the Eastern Branch is best served, probably starting from the 3rd platform from the western stop on Nth Terrace. Not sure if extra services are needed to the Entertainment Centre unless something is happening.
RTT_Rules
The rest of the line beyond the RAH stop on North Terrace is a bit of an oddity really.

If it is not used as the launchpad for a Grange Road line, I'd like to see a couple of short extensions to serve local areas where people actually live - perhaps Chief St and Hawker St through Bowden-Brompton and West Thebarton Road onto Ashwin Parade (once grade separated from the North-South Corridor) in Torrensville.

This sort of extension can only become a possibility if there is a long-term commitment to a rolling program of tram extensions, rather than the current approach of treating each one like a major project.

Would be interesting to know what the plan is for Nth Adelaide, surely this route is a give, run up KW and then O'Connell then loop west to around Wellington Square and back  to O'connell on a different road to create a large Balloon Loop. This puts most within a 8min walk of a tram stop.
RTT_Rules
The current concept is to run it through North Adelaide and out the other side along Prospect Road, which would replace/upgrade the present G10 bus route.

So long as they keep electing Anne Moran, the residents of North Adelaide don't deserve a tram route to themselves.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't know what train you took but I had to wait 30 minutes to catch the train in the first place and then it went along at a snails pace and took about 10 minutes to get to Bowden. The tram is every 5 minutes to the entertainment centre and is only 12 minutes from Adelaide railway station according to google earth.

The tram could take me to the rundle street mall which the train could not. Regardless of whether it takes over the grange line or is just extended along port road the tram is by far a superior service then the train line.
  RTT_Rules The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dubai UAE
I don't know what train you took but I had to wait 30 minutes to catch the train in the first place and then it went along at a snails pace and took about 10 minutes to get to Bowden. The tram is every 5 minutes to the entertainment centre and is only 12 minutes from Adelaide railway station according to google earth.

The tram could take me to the rundle street mall which the train could not. Regardless of whether it takes over the grange line or is just extended along port road the tram is by far a superior service then the train line.
simstrain
Frequency is driven by govt policy not modal technology, likewise the single track sections.

The time table says 5min Central to Bowden. There is alot work going on around Bowden with the station closed for 6mths and when I was there the trains were running slow through the area.

The railway to Port Melbourne used to take 6-10min, the tram is now 20+min, it will be worse for the OH/Grange lines.

Not everyone wants to go to the Mall, but the same issue lies with every commuter railway in the world, stations are further apart than traditional tram running through the guts of the city. BAsed on your statement the whole network should be made LR as this gets you to the MALL, would you propose the same for Sydney? How's this for a thought, change to tram at Adelaide station, as you would promote for Sydney.
  kitchgp Train Controller

Tram is timetabled 15 - 17 mins from Elizabeth & Collins Street corners. Train required more walking from Flinders Street Platforms 10 & 11 (wasn't connected to City Loop).
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Tram is timetabled 15 - 17 mins from Elizabeth & Collins Street corners. Train required more walking from Flinders Street Platforms 10 & 11 (wasn't connected to City Loop).
kitchgp
But if you worked on the corner of Flinders and Elizabeth Streets, as I did, the tram meant a longer walk. A longer ride and a longer walk.
  DJPeters Locomotive Driver

The trams would never be able to take the crowds to football matches at Adelaide Oval from the Western suburbs as that is were both the Crows and Port Power teams fans are mostly situated. Like I have said 3 or 4 car trains run during football are packed that solid that it is impossible at times to move about and getting to a ticket machine at the other end of the car is an ordeal not really worth thinking about. Trams would have no hope at all, unless it was a continuous parade of trams every 5 minutes  say and even then they would not really cope.

Thank goodness that the idea to convert the train to tram line has been put on the back burner but the transport minister here still drops clues about it still being possible to do it in the future even if he says it could possibly be done, there must be some plan or something floating around that they had or have had.
  kitchgp Train Controller

Not 20+ mins tram.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As per observations in another thread I noticed yesterday (in the pouring rain) that Frome Street/North Terrace already has the tracks there and the rest of them are piled up waiting to go.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The trams would never be able to take the crowds to football matches at Adelaide Oval from the Western suburbs as that is were both the Crows and Port Power teams fans are mostly situated. Like I have said 3 or 4 car trains run during football are packed that solid that it is impossible at times to move about and getting to a ticket machine at the other end of the car is an ordeal not really worth thinking about. Trams would have no hope at all, unless it was a continuous parade of trams every 5 minutes  say and even then they would not really cope.

Thank goodness that the idea to convert the train to tram line has been put on the back burner but the transport minister here still drops clues about it still being possible to do it in the future even if he says it could possibly be done, there must be some plan or something floating around that they had or have had.
DJPeters

When you say 3 or 4 car train do you mean 2x2 carriage trains or 3 and 4x2 carriage trains?

How frequent are these trains that are packed?

With the expansion of the light rail network (regardless of how small) are any more trams being ordered or are they going to squeeze out what they have?

Having trams run along port road with the train running the current alignment is not such a bad idea so long as they start converting the grange and outer harbour line to electric. Adelaide need to get rid of those grimy diesels. Maybe do what the byron resort is doing and convert them to solar.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Three car consists can, and do, run on the Adelaide Metro train lines. They can be formed of 2x 3100 cars and 1x3000 car, or 3x 3000 cars.

It is common for trains of any length to have seats filled and passengers standing in weekday peak hour and before/after big events in the city.

Three new trams are being ordered for the extensions to be opened next year.

Electrifying the Outer Harbor line is one of the options on the table for upgrading that corridor. If that does happen, adding on a Port Road tram route would be pushed back further into the future as other areas without either a train or tram route would be higher priorities than a tram line running right alongside an existing train line.



If electrification of the train line was chosen and the 3000/3100 DEMU fleet was not yet life expired, I would be in favour of the retaining some of the DEMU fleet for extra crowd busting services and fitting the engines from the remainder to the new electric fleet as backup power supplies. They are modern designs with fairly clean burning constant speed engines, and a much cleaner option than people switching to a car after being stuck on the platform when capacity was insufficient.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Would that be 3 more of the citadis 302 trams or another tram type?
  DJPeters Locomotive Driver

I think it would be 3 more Flexity type trams rather than more of the superior Citadis trams unfortunately! All Adelaide's Citadis trams are second hand/brand new from Madrid I think it was, they were brand new though when bought just surplus to requirements in Madrid at the time and never used there. Later 2 or3 more were added to Adelaide's fleet if my memory serves me right after the initial ones were purchased.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
I think it would be 3 more Flexity type trams rather than more of the superior Citadis trams unfortunately! All Adelaide's Citadis trams are second hand/brand new from Madrid I think it was, they were brand new though when bought just surplus to requirements in Madrid at the time and never used there. Later 2 or3 more were added to Adelaide's fleet if my memory serves me right after the initial ones were purchased.
DJPeters

They will be Citadis from the surplus Madrid fleet.

The Opposition has condemned the purchase as being "buying 10 year old second hand trams rather than new ones" ignoring the old Glenelg trams lasted 80 years, and buying 3 new trams would be prohibitively expensive.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
If it is not used as the launchpad for a Grange Road line...
justapassenger
Personally I've always thought this is a logical place for an extension of the street-running system, terminating at the corner of Findon and Grange. The original line went almost that far.
The current concept is to run it through North Adelaide and out the other side along Prospect Road, which would replace/upgrade the present G10 bus route. So long as they keep electing Anne Moran, the residents of North Adelaide don't deserve a tram route to themselves.
justapassenger
The G10 gets surprisingly busy and as I've said before I think O'Connell Street needs a lift.

What is Mr X's position on tramways? He will likely hold the balance of power after the election Wink
  DJPeters Locomotive Driver

It looks like that with all these extensions up and running and future extensions planned that they will have the whole fleet of trams working at any one time so what happens when something goes wrong and you have no trams as a back up. To be honest 3 trams now could be placed into service on the Entertainment To Glenelg line and not be noticed so with the extra track to be used then sooner or later they are going to need new trams as the tracks get longer in the future. 3 new trams would not even service the North Terrace line adequately now.
  normangerman Junior Train Controller

It looks like that with all these extensions up and running and future extensions planned that they will have the whole fleet of trams working at any one time so what happens when something goes wrong and you have no trams as a back up. To be honest 3 trams now could be placed into service on the Entertainment To Glenelg line and not be noticed so with the extra track to be used then sooner or later they are going to need new trams as the tracks get longer in the future. 3 new trams would not even service the North Terrace line adequately now.
DJPeters
Before making wild accusations about rolling stock or incorrect news about extension changes, maybe you should ask questions or do some research first.

Adelaide currently has 15 Flexities and 6 Citadis trams, a total of 21 trams.

A peak of 18 trams is used on weekdays, 12 on Saturdays and 8 on Sundays.

Assuming 1.5 minutes per stop along North Terrace, a tram would take 9-10 minutes from one end of North Terrace to the other.

With a mentioned 10 minute frequency, that would mean Adelaide Metro would need 2 trams, 3 if they want to give the timetable more padding.

That leaves 3-4 trams available in the depot on weekdays and more on weekends. More than enough to cover any issues or special events.

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