Junee - Cootamundra section

 
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
The XPT on the Main South northbound takes 30 mins longer than the southbound XPT. This is due to the two lines between Junee and Cootamundra are separated, joining back and separating again several times.

Why are the 2 lines separated?

CL

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  Clyde Goodwin2 Locomotive Driver

The XPT on the Main South northbound takes 30 mins longer than the southbound XPT. This is due to the two lines between Junee and Cootamundra are separated, joining back and separating again several times.

Why are the 2 lines separated?

CL
Just what are you on about???
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Have a look on Google Maps and you will see the up (North bound) takes a much longer path/route to absorb the rising grades In the landscape.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
The XPT on the Main South northbound takes 30 mins longer than the southbound XPT. This is due to the two lines between Junee and Cootamundra are separated, joining back and separating again several times.

Why are the 2 lines separated?

CL
Just what are you on about???
Clyde Goodwin2
1. The difference in the two day trains between Sydney and Melbourne is actually 25 minutes

2. The difference in the timings for the two between Cootamundra and Junee is actually 8 minutes.

3. 13 minutes of the other 17 is taken up by a crossing between the two at Harefield where the Up (Sydney bound) train is refuged to allow the Down train to pass.

4. In other words the 30 minute difference, which does not exist in the first place, is not due to the separation of the two tracks at TWO not SEVERAL locations between Junee and Cootamumdra.

5. The two locations at which the two are separated are the Bethungra Spiral and the Frampton Deviation.  At both, the original track (which is now the down track both in direction and vertical inclination) was built to a 1 in 40 grade and later replaced with a track at a lesser gradient.

6. in the case of the Frampton Deviation the newer track was built in 1898 and the original abandoned, only to be reinstated as the down line during duplication in the 1940s.  The Bethungra Spiral was completed in 1946 and the original track retained as the down line.
  cityrail-rulez Train Controller

The XPT on the Main South northbound takes 30 mins longer than the southbound XPT. This is due to the two lines between Junee and Cootamundra are separated, joining back and separating again several times.

Why are the 2 lines separated?

CL
Colonel Leon
Very interesting question!

There are 4 line split deviations on the Main Southern Railway - look between Campbelltown to Menangle Park, Frampton (UP Line or original single track line) North of Bethungra Spiral and North of Junee in Google Earth/Maps

There are several deviations along the Main Southern Railway, many of which can be seen if you look very closely
These were the original single track line built in the early 1800's which went via Thirlmere, the line I would say started as a single track from Granville in Sydney's west and during some time late 1800's to early 1900's the line was then duplicated to Junee and deviated in many parts of the line, which included closure of many railway stations

I doubt no one really know's why those split deviations exist along the Main Southern Railway, but a fair guess it's gradient profiling related that's pretty much all I can say

The latest deviation along the Main Southern Railway is the deviation for the Aylmerton tunnel, north of Mittagong
I know it was completed 20?? Something! ha ha ha the tunnel itself was cracking, but somehow it's still standing SO FAR!!! lol

If you do have curve & gradient diagrams, this probably best answers your question as you can see the differences between UP & DOWN main lines and the different gradient profiles, best one to look at is 1975 Smile sadly I will be unable to upload the book as my scanner is too small to scan the pages, but you can see one here in 1960 http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/infrastructure/documents/
  ivahri Junior Train Controller

The XPT on the Main South northbound takes 30 mins longer than the southbound XPT. This is due to the two lines between Junee and Cootamundra are separated, joining back and separating again several times.

Why are the 2 lines separated?

CL
Very interesting question!

There are 4 line split deviations on the Main Southern Railway - look between Campbelltown to Menangle Park, Frampton (UP Line or original single track line) North of Bethungra Spiral and North of Junee in Google Earth/Maps


I doubt no one really know's why those split deviations exist along the Main Southern Railway, but a fair guess it's gradient profiling related that's pretty much all I can say

cityrail-rulez
Are you serious? So you think no-one knows why those deviations exist? They don't happen by accident! An engineer in the NSWGR didn't just wake up one morning and decide it was a great day to dig some tunnels! It was always about gradients... or bend easing... and there was always reasons behind it even if over time the reasoning is lost because some people can't use Google.


Richard
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
The XPT on the Main South northbound takes 30 mins longer than the southbound XPT. This is due to the two lines between Junee and Cootamundra are separated, joining back and separating again several times.

Why are the 2 lines separated?

CL

There are 4 line split deviations on the Main Southern Railway - look between Campbelltown to Menangle Park, Frampton (UP Line or original single track line) North of Bethungra Spiral and North of Junee in Google Earth/Maps

There are several deviations along the Main Southern Railway, many of which can be seen if you look very closely
These were the original single track line built in the early 1800's which went via Thirlmere, the line I would say started as a single track from Granville in Sydney's west and during some time late 1800's to early 1900's the line was then duplicated to Junee and deviated in many parts of the line, which included closure of many railway stations

I doubt no one really know's why those split deviations exist along the Main Southern Railway, but a fair guess it's gradient profiling related that's pretty much all I can say

The latest deviation along the Main Southern Railway is the deviation for the Aylmerton tunnel, north of Mittagong
I know it was completed 20?? Something! ha ha ha the tunnel itself was cracking, but somehow it's still standing SO FAR!!! lol
cityrail-rulez
Aylmerton Tunnel still exists and remains in use.

It was Redbank Tunnel which was replaced by a deviation.  It was then backfilled and unless you know where it was there is now little sign that it ever existed.

If you really want to know the details of the deviations along the Main south get a copy of the ARHS Bulletins CD from 1937 to 1950.  In that are the articles written by the late C. C. Singleton which give a detailed account of the original line and the alterations to it.

Singleton was known for the quality of his writings.  He didn't guess or make assumptions and what he wrote could generally be relied upon to be correct, unlike some of the uninformed rubbish which finds its way onto Railpage!

And the original line was built from about 1860, not the early 1800s.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: no longer in Sydney
Quoting 7334 :

"If you really want to know the details of the deviations along the Main south get a copy of the ARHS Bulletins CD from 1937 to 1950.  In that are the articles written by the late C. C. Singleton which give a detailed account of the original line and the alterations to it.

Singleton was known for the quality of his writings."


I used to have a rather thick landscape oriented 'book' that I think came from the ARHS bookstore that was a very detailed history of the Main South deviations and duplications, including plans etc. Sadly it disappeared may years ago. Possibly it was the CD that had been printed.
  br30453 Train Controller

Quoting 7334 :

"If you really want to know the details of the deviations along the Main south get a copy of the ARHS Bulletins CD from 1937 to 1950.  In that are the articles written by the late C. C. Singleton which give a detailed account of the original line and the alterations to it.

Singleton was known for the quality of his writings."


I used to have a rather thick landscape oriented 'book' that I think came from the ARHS bookstore that was a very detailed history of the Main South deviations and duplications, including plans etc. Sadly it disappeared may years ago. Possibly it was the CD that had been printed.
mikesyd
C. C. Singleton worked for 43 years in the civil Engineering section of the NSWGR, being involved in Station and Yard layouts, retiring in 1954.
So he would have had first hand knowledge of the deviation works on the Main South.

  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Colonel Leon,   Here is a link to wikipedia re the Main South.   There are within the article lots of links to click on that will give you a pretty good appreciation of the developments of the line, deviations etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Southern_railway_line,_New_South_Wales
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
It was the XPT crew that told me that the extra 30 mins was due to a deviation between Junee and Cootamundra. I don't know where he got his facts from.
  tazzer96 Assistant Commissioner

I remember reading a while ago that the  was around 30 mins longer for up XPT's but that only in part due to the 2 deviations.   It might have been simply to do with timetabling because down trains need to cross over to the up to use platforms.
  Spletsie Deputy Commissioner


I used to have a rather thick landscape oriented 'book' that I think came from the ARHS bookstore that was a very detailed history of the Main South deviations and duplications, including plans etc. Sadly it disappeared may years ago. Possibly it was the CD that had been printed.
mikesyd
That sounds like the book Main Southern Line Maps, published by the NSW Department of Railways.
It's not the same as the ARHS CD.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: no longer in Sydney
I remember reading a while ago that the  was around 30 mins longer for up XPT's but that only in part due to the 2 deviations.   It might have been simply to do with timetabling because down trains need to cross over to the up to use platforms.
tazzer96
The UP (Sydney direction) line is about 5km longer due to the 2 deviations - just under 2km for Frampton, and just over 3km for the Spiral.

For an XPT, that means about 3-5 minutes extra. As explained elsewhere, there is a cross at Harefield, which takes some time for the UP train as it gets there first and has to wait, and possibly other crosses on the single track sections as well.

In "the olden days" the Aurora, Spirit and Intercapital Daylight used to pass their opposites on Double Track north of Junee. Presumably paths at the Metropolitan ends have made that difficult today, hence the cross at Harefield.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I remember reading a while ago that the  was around 30 mins longer for up XPT's but that only in part due to the 2 deviations.   It might have been simply to do with timetabling because down trains need to cross over to the up to use platforms.
The UP (Sydney direction) line is about 5km longer due to the 2 deviations - just under 2km for Frampton, and just over 3km for the Spiral.

For an XPT, that means about 3-5 minutes extra. As explained elsewhere, there is a cross at Harefield, which takes some time for the UP train as it gets there first and has to wait, and possibly other crosses on the single track sections as well.

In "the olden days" the Aurora, Spirit and Intercapital Daylight used to pass their opposites on Double Track north of Junee. Presumably paths at the Metropolitan ends have made that difficult today, hence the cross at Harefield.
mikesyd
Harefield has one of those newish 6.8 km loops ?

Extra duplication In the Junee - Bomen area wouldn't go astray.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
The loop at Harefield is the original 900metres (approx).

The longer "passing lane" extends north from Bomen to a point about midway between Bomen and Shepherds Siding, in other words a fair way south of Harefield.

According to the ARTC's Master Train Plan the two XPTs cross at Harefield.
  cityrail-rulez Train Controller

Well I should have stated I wasn't sure why those deviations exist, thanks for correcting Smile
I couldn't remember which tunnel was deviated, I looked at the track diagram and thought it was the Aylmerton tunnel, I was going to type in Redbank tunnel but just couldn't remember since it's been over a year since I've been travelling. Thanks again for clearning this information up Smile

Not always the XPT passes each other at Harefield loop, depends if the train is on time or running late
I've seen passings of the XPT at Bomen and Illabo

I wasn't refering to anything relating to Harefield loop, that 900 meters approx. could not be the original alignment it's been pulled up and relayed since the line was built in trackwork and derailments, just because it's in the corridore doesn't mean to say it's exact alignment of the original main line!
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: no longer in Sydney
I wasn't refering to anything relating to Harefield loop, that 900 meters approx. could not be the original alignment it's been pulled up and relayed since the line was built in trackwork and derailments, just because it's in the corridore doesn't mean to say it's exact alignment of the original main line!
cityrail-rulez
Well, in that case, it could be said that most of the South has been deviated to some degree over time, apart from the obvious ones (remains of old formations, bridges) that you can see when travelling from Picton to Cootamundra. But lets not go into the slight straightenings by a few metres, the levelling of a few dips, all of which left the fenceline intact.

Anyway, the topic deals with the section from Junee to Cootamundra, lets keep to that part if there is in fact any more.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The latest deviation along the Main Southern Railway is the deviation for the Aylmerton tunnel, north of Mittagong
I know it was completed 20?? Something! ha ha ha the tunnel itself was cracking, but somehow it's still standing SO FAR!!! lol
cityrail-rulez

I think the tunnel was eliminated by a deviation in a cutting in order to allow coal mining underneath?
  Groover Junior Train Controller

Location: A long way from home
The latest deviation along the Main Southern Railway is the deviation for the Aylmerton tunnel, north of Mittagong
I know it was completed 20?? Something! ha ha ha the tunnel itself was cracking, but somehow it's still standing SO FAR!!! lol

I think the tunnel was eliminated by a deviation in a cutting in order to allow coal mining underneath?
awsgc24
Latest deviation is between Tahmoor and Picton eliminating the tunnel.  Aylmerton tunnel is still in use.
  Valvegear The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The UP (Sydney direction) line is about 5km longer due to the 2 deviations - just under 2km for Frampton, and just over 3km for the Spiral.
"mikesyd"
if you want to be horribly precise, the figures I have are 2.816 km for the Bethungra Spiral and 1.668 km for Frampton Deviation.
As an aside, you can always pose the question, "Which is longer by rail - Sydney to Melbourne or Melbourne to Sydney?" You might even make a buck or two by having a bet!
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Harefield has one of those newish 6.8 km loops ?

Extra duplication In the Junee - Bomen area wouldn't go astray.
Nightfire
According to this diagram, Harefield has only a 900m loop. The grain siding may also be a bit short, which may limit train sizes.

See: http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR258.pdf
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Harefield has one of those newish 6.8 km loops ?

Extra duplication In the Junee - Bomen area wouldn't go astray.
According to this diagram, Harefield has only a 900m loop. The grain siding may also be a bit short, which may limit train sizes.

See: http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR258.pdf
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Harefield has one of those newish 6.8 km loops ?

Extra duplication In the Junee - Bomen area wouldn't go astray.
According to this diagram, Harefield has only a 900m loop. The grain siding may also be a bit short, which may limit train sizes.

See: http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR258.pdf
awsgc24
Comparing the single line sections on the NSW and VIC side, using the sa-trackandsignal diagrams:
* Turnout speeds at ends of loops
** NSW mostly not shown, so speeds unknown
** VIC most are 80km/h with 80 signals at home signals and previous signals.

* Intermediate block signals, useful if trains overtake a lot.
** NSW rare
** VIC normal practice

* Intermediate home signals in passing lanes
** NSW have mostly distant signals, do not allow for 2 trains on 6.8km loops. Except Yerong Creek in down direction
** VIC always have home signals, thus allow for 2 trains on 6.8km loops at same time

* Short loops
** NSW Harefield, The Rock, Table top
** VIC ???

* Single line section running times
** NSW info not to hand
** VIC info not to hand

* Other matters
* NSW at Junee does not appear to have facilities to overtake long 1500m down trains.
* VIC ???

So there are a few signalling improvements that could be done mainly on the NSW side.

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