Malcolm Turncoat's imploding act

 
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I seem to recall you mentioning that your dad thought that Joe Hockey was a nice guy - I do remember things that you say you know. It's not a personal attack on you or your family - I just happened to remember what you said.
Agree, Tones attacks on MT and for this he doesn't deserve a 2nd chance.
You said earlier that we would have nothing to vote for unless Tones started his own party - I took from this that you still thought he was an electable leader.
The 2nd last paragraph just described to a T why my mum left her country town 50 years ago, rumors and innuendo. Do I think it would be worse with the mega database's, unlikely!
What are you basing that on?
When was the last time someone was "glassed" in Dubai? Do I feel my wife could safely walk home at 3am in the morning from the pub, yes.
How do you connect the lack of personal/property crime in your particular part of the world with increased mass surveillance? Is there any evidence that increased mass surveillance results in lower crime or are you just making an assumption based on what you feel is right?
Personal opinion only, the so called protections in the USA are lip service only, do we really believe the likes of the CIA don't know everything and use it as they see fit?
I'm not worried about the CIA, I'm worried about petty local bureaucrats. And its a real fear - they dip into this stuff all time. ATO employees snooping on celebrities, police officers exceeding their authority. This is a much bigger problem and you're giving them more and more powerful tools to snoop on your life with bugger all oversight.
I understand the fear in these mega data bases. But for me there are bigger issues that impact on our lives than this.
Picture this: The Chinese government asks the Australian government to hand over all the data they have on dissident political activity. And if we don't comply they'll turn the economic screws. There's all sorts of potential for a big, centralised database on everyone to be abused.
don_dunstan
Tony Abbott is also a nice guy in his personal life from all accounts, I've even heard ALP members comment on some of his personal attributes and how he has helped many during personal crisis including G. Richardson, but that doesn't mean he's a good PM or Hockey. Having watched Hockey and Rudd for a number of years on the morning show weekly chat, I thought both were nice guys and would make good senior members of govt. Obviously not correct.

Small town gossip based on your personal life or the local police officer digging up dirt electronically and spreading the same which by the end of the day will be vastly twisted from facts, not much difference.

The more people feel they are being watched the less they are likely to play up. The mass roll out of street camera's, CCTV  was argued on the basis of reduced crime and more likely to catch the guilty.    

If the govt didn't track potential terrorists and they killed people, the govt is considered inept. How do you supposedly track people who have not committed a crime but are suspected to do so if you don't have the data? In the US right now they are digging through one mans life data trying to work out how he became the US's largest single handed mass murderer, which I personally also consider an act of terror. From what they learn they will try and profile him and with this profile potential future wanna be repeaters. Profiling potential criminals is useless if you don't have the database to start with.

Yes we are headed down the path of Tom Cruise's movie where people are arrested for the crimes the govt believes they will commit. How far do or should we go down this path? I don't know. If you ask this question to the family members of three people killed by a terrorist in Sydney in recent years, I'm sure they will say we are not far enough. I suppose it gets down to how much are we willing to lose to protect our privacy? The American's refuse to give up their "right to bare" arms knowing full well this right leads to the death of +11,000 people each year at the end of the gun and more than 4 times the head count per capita compared to other western English speaking countries.

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  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Tony Abbott is also a nice guy in his personal life from all accounts, I've even heard ALP members comment on some of his personal attributes and how he has helped many during personal crisis including G. Richardson, but that doesn't mean he's a good PM or Hockey. Having watched Hockey and Rudd for a number of years on the morning show weekly chat, I thought both were nice guys and would make good senior members of govt. Obviously not correct.
RTT_Rules
I've heard that Jeff Kennett is really charming in person - it doesn't mean that I agree with how he was as a Premier. Hockey said some things while he was Treasurer that were basically very stupid and ill-considered and really you have to judge him on his performance as a politician rather than as a person. And you already know what I think of Tones... thick as two short planks. How on earth he got a Rhodes Scholarship is beyond me.
Small town gossip based on your personal life or the local police officer digging up dirt electronically and spreading the same which by the end of the day will be vastly twisted from facts, not much difference. The more people feel they are being watched the less they are likely to play up. The mass roll out of street camera's, CCTV was argued on the basis of reduced crime and more likely to catch the guilty.
RTT_Rules
I read a study done on CCTV in the UK that said there was nil difference as a deterrent... can't be bothered finding the links now but I think people ascribe all sorts of supernatural powers to surveillance cameras that simply aren't true. If some smackie is going to snot you for your wallet in a public place a camera will not stop them from doing it; they don't care if they're identified. It's up to the police and the court system to try and protect the public from these people - mass-surveillance cameras will not deter them.

If the govt didn't track potential terrorists and they killed people, the govt is considered inept.
RTT_Rules
THIS IS THE CRUX of the problem. Seen to be doing something.
How do you supposedly track people who have not committed a crime but are suspected to do so if you don't have the data? ... Profiling potential criminals is useless if you don't have the database to start with.
RTT_Rules

Old-fashioned police work - door-knocking, speaking to witnesses. The police are already extremely well-resourced and they manage to catch up with people very quickly (eg Jill Meaghers' murder in Melbourne, they knew who it was within 24 hours). If you think they need an extremely powerful real-time surveillance of everyone all the time then you don't have any confidence in how they're already operating.
If you ask this question to the family members of three people killed by a terrorist in Sydney in recent years, I'm sure they will say we are not far enough.
RTT_Rules
How would a mega-surveillance system have prevented that tragedy? It wouldn't have.
  georges Train Controller

And who built the original electricity network, wasn't that tax payers money.
wobert
   
The energy market in Australia is captive to power companies and erratic government policies. We await preliminary analysis in learned newspapers over coming days of today’s announcement  on energy policy by Turnbull. It’s past time to get prices under control. Power costs are already a very serious challenge to business.

But network costs are only a part of the story.

Alas, the present networks are not the ones that Jack (i.e. the public) built – they have been ‘enhanced’. There are those who are unkind enough to describe ‘enhancing’ as ‘gold plating’.  This process has been done in the name of providing a level of supply reliability that some have, rightly, described as excessive. Under the present misguided arrangements, additional investment in poles and wires brings a guaranteed rate of return to the power companies, which still include some in public ownership.

Network owners are able to charge a price sufficient to get that rate of return (I think 7%). Thus there is an incentive to invest more in networks in the name of providing fewer blackouts, but really to boost energy companies' profits; meeting that 7% return is passed on quite legally to consumers. The cost to the companies of financing their investment in gold plating is rather less than 7%. Everyone would like an uninterruptible power supply through the mains but the additional costs of providing ever-increasing security, beyond a certain point, are not worth the benefits.



This longish article demonstrates how the legal underpinnings of the present guaranteed rate of return provisions are being used to defeat challenges by governments and others to power pricing arrangements.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
And who built the original electricity network, wasn't that tax payers money.Ooh but that's different. Most new industry is started by the government because they are the only ones that can afford the risk and provide the capital required .Then private industry moves in if it see s a quid.Who started the internet? The the computer industry was going nowhere in the 1930's, but due to the war and the capital was provided. The space industry was all government funded for nearly 50 years until industry saw an opportunity. As Don said you want to lean a bit of history.
wobert
Correct,
historically the govt starts most major high risk/high cost industries, but then over time once the sector has matured pulls back and focuses on being a regulator, not an operator and its pretty much worked with nearly everything in our lives. Failure to do so usually see's the private sector come in from the side and undercut the govt run entity which has a history as a guide of being higher cost and more constrained by fat management and hungry unions. If you want examples, go to almost any industry including mine.

With regard to the Space sector, it was Obama who said launching commercial satellites anymore is not the role of NASA who had failed to lower the cost to expectations and hence cut the space shuttle program (to my disgust) to force the issue. Now look at what SPACE X is doing in less than 15 years.

The computer industry boomed in the 70's and 80's on the back of the private sector innovation by the likes of Bill Gates and others.

Back to the power sector

I have no issue with the govt selling the power generation assets, provided they put in the appropriate regulation, they didn't or rather the situation changed and they didn't. From today's ABC press release "The first part of that means power companies would be required to use a percentage of electricity from so-called dispatchable sources such as coal, gas, batteries and pumped hydro.....It would also keep the power system stable at a lower price because it would be done via long-term contracts, not the short-term spot price.". I believe I mentioned this issue a number of times. This protects the continuous supply from being under cut by the non-continuous supply, which is basically what killed off Northern and lead to Pelican Point operating at 50% most of the time.

However they need to go further to prevent generation capacity from withholding capacity to drive up prices and cap the max price from $14000/MW down to sub $250/MW. Once power is above this price its clear capacity has been exceeded and no point rewarding the generators from other peoples pain.

Additionally
"The second part — reducing emissions — means they'll be scrapping subsidies and incentives for renewables and instead expecting retailers to ensure the power that they're buying is efficient enough to help Australia meet its international obligations (i.e. what we signed up to do during the Paris climate change conference)."

When PV solar took off it was on the back of heavily subsidised installation and feed in tariffs and likewise industrial scale operations of wind and PV solar. Installed prices for both have dropped dramatically in recent years. PV solar panels and Invertors are now around 90% of the cost if not more less than in 2000. Efficiency has also increased by nearly double. However a subsidy should never have been allowed to undercut existing generator capacity. As soon as you do this something is wrong with the sustainable economics.

  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Tony Abbott is also a nice guy in his personal life from all accounts, I've even heard ALP members comment on some of his personal attributes and how he has helped many during personal crisis including G. Richardson, but that doesn't mean he's a good PM or Hockey. Having watched Hockey and Rudd for a number of years on the morning show weekly chat, I thought both were nice guys and would make good senior members of govt. Obviously not correct...
RTT_Rules
I love it how Liberal Party supporters use Richardson as some sort of character reference from the other side of politics. He has a good gig and stays within script. That's about as credible as Seven's Sunrise rolling out Latham to 'balance' Kennentt.

Rudd vs Abbott. Neither are forgive and forget types but only one could have been cast as Tommy DeVito in 'Goodfellas'.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Tony Abbott is also a nice guy in his personal life from all accounts, I've even heard ALP members comment on some of his personal attributes and how he has helped many during personal crisis including G. Richardson, but that doesn't mean he's a good PM or Hockey. Having watched Hockey and Rudd for a number of years on the morning show weekly chat, I thought both were nice guys and would make good senior members of govt. Obviously not correct...
I love it how Liberal Party supporters use Richardson as some sort of character reference from the other side of politics. He has a good gig and stays within script. That's about as credible as Seven's Sunrise rolling out Latham to 'balance' Kennentt.

Rudd vs Abbott. Neither are forgive and forget types but only one could have been cast as Tommy DeVito in 'Goodfellas'.
Groundrelay

Richo
Former Senator G Richardson
Born to parents who were active members of the Postal Union
Raised in Kogarah
Member of the Young Labour from uni and later ALP
Studied to be a lawyer, so the guy came from the poor side of the tracks and worked his smeg off in school and uni.
Mother died and focused on politics over study.

11 years NSW Senator in Fed Parliament, yongest member in parliament at the time
Many years and portfolios as Minister in Hawke/Keating govt and govt committes for reform

Left parliament due to ongoing ill health which still continues

Well respected by both sides of the house.

Dark side, he was caught up in cash for comments 20 odd years ago which was actually highlighted by the Comedy Company TV shows a few years before, something I think most would fall victim too if offered, but has made most of us wary of people in these positions and what they say, however usually consistency is the key, unlike John Laws switch from one fly killer to another.

The guy is not an idiot nor a radical and realist, but calls a spade a spade regardless on which side of the ledger you are on. I give him far more credibility to rational thought from the left or right side than most others. If I want to listen to someone regurgitate Karl Max, I'll read his book.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
One thing I learnt this week, is that for Tony Abbott to make a comeback, he would have to be drafted in by his own party, something that you may all consider to be impossible to happen, but consider this, with the backbenchers getting nervous about losing their jobs, and their Govt getting consigned to the waste paper basket for 10 years, would they dare do such a move?? I.E bite the bullet?? (Price check for some Mortein bombs please, there is a massive blowfly we have to kill!)

Kind Regards
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
One thing I learnt this week, is that for Tony Abbott to make a comeback, he would have to be drafted in by his own party, something that you may all consider to be impossible to happen, but consider this, with the backbenchers getting nervous about losing their jobs, and their Govt getting consigned to the waste paper basket for 10 years, would they dare do such a move?? I.E bite the bullet?? (Price check for some Mortein bombs please, there is a massive blowfly we have to kill!)

Kind Regards
lsrailfan
From your 'sources', does that mean there is no one other than the monk who can lead the party Smile

This is brilliant given how the usual suspects got stuck into Labor over its leadership shenanigans. Labor's leader is as boring as ...  but they can now claim stability of leadership.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Richo...
RTT_Rules
Always read the PDS. That bit about past performance… etc.

Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.

The bloke’s a player, hooked on the attention, access and material perks. For the $$$ media providing his stage the former senator serves as the token Labor identity. He’s not there for robust, balanced debate, nor is their audience Razz
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.
Groundrelay
Both him and Hawke have a special spot waiting for them in hell... classic bait and switch, the working class went backwards under their benevolent 'reforms'. I saw an interview with Keating recently and he still doesn't get the fact that his own constituency categorically rejected him and his social justice crusade. People living a hand-to-mouth existence don't really care about things like Aboriginal reconciliation or the glass ceiling - it's not their most pressing issue. Keating was so isolated from the electorate he just didn't get that the rapid de-industrialisation of our country (now almost complete) was actually hurting people... either didn't know or didn't care.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.
Both him and Hawke have a special spot waiting for them in hell... classic bait and switch, the working class went backwards under their benevolent 'reforms'. I saw an interview with Keating recently and he still doesn't get the fact that his own constituency categorically rejected him and his social justice crusade. People living a hand-to-mouth existence don't really care about things like Aboriginal reconciliation or the glass ceiling - it's not their most pressing issue. Keating was so isolated from the electorate he just didn't get that the rapid de-industrialisation of our country (now almost complete) was actually hurting people... either didn't know or didn't care.
don_dunstan
If Hawke and Keating had not done what they did then Australia would be in a far worst condition. One job, one man operating in outdated old smoke stack industries that were totally noncompetitive. They did what needed to be done. If you want a real villain, then look no further than little Johnnie Howard who squandered the mining boom giving away this once in a life time opportunity to the punters who spent hand over fist on imported products.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.
Both him and Hawke have a special spot waiting for them in hell... classic bait and switch, the working class went backwards under their benevolent 'reforms'. I saw an interview with Keating recently and he still doesn't get the fact that his own constituency categorically rejected him and his social justice crusade. People living a hand-to-mouth existence don't really care about things like Aboriginal reconciliation or the glass ceiling - it's not their most pressing issue. Keating was so isolated from the electorate he just didn't get that the rapid de-industrialisation of our country (now almost complete) was actually hurting people... either didn't know or didn't care.
If Hawke and Keating had not done what they did then Australia would be in a far worst condition. One job, one man operating in outdated old smoke stack industries that were totally noncompetitive. They did what needed to be done. If you want a real villain, then look no further than little Johnnie Howard who squandered the mining boom giving away this once in a life time opportunity to the punters who spent hand over fist on imported products.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.
Both him and Hawke have a special spot waiting for them in hell... classic bait and switch, the working class went backwards under their benevolent 'reforms'. I saw an interview with Keating recently and he still doesn't get the fact that his own constituency categorically rejected him and his social justice crusade. People living a hand-to-mouth existence don't really care about things like Aboriginal reconciliation or the glass ceiling - it's not their most pressing issue. Keating was so isolated from the electorate he just didn't get that the rapid de-industrialisation of our country (now almost complete) was actually hurting people... either didn't know or didn't care.
If Hawke and Keating had not done what they did then Australia would be in a far worst condition. One job, one man operating in outdated old smoke stack industries that were totally noncompetitive. They did what needed to be done. If you want a real villain, then look no further than little Johnnie Howard who squandered the mining boom giving away this once in a life time opportunity to the punters who spent hand over fist on imported products.
nswtrains
Respectfully disagree, the Button Plan (in retrospect) was all about completely destroying the car industry; Keating actually thought that the workers would be grateful to him for shoving them into low-pay service industry jobs... these people supposedly the workers friends. Howard probably accelerated that process by throwing Ford to the dogs when the Thai government wouldn't allow them to compete in Thailand as per that stupid lop-sided "free-trade" agreement.

We're reaping 30 years of Thatcherite policies now anyway - living standards are crashing across the country, average people can't pay their bills any longer.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.
Both him and Hawke have a special spot waiting for them in hell... classic bait and switch, the working class went backwards under their benevolent 'reforms'. I saw an interview with Keating recently and he still doesn't get the fact that his own constituency categorically rejected him and his social justice crusade. People living a hand-to-mouth existence don't really care about things like Aboriginal reconciliation or the glass ceiling - it's not their most pressing issue. Keating was so isolated from the electorate he just didn't get that the rapid de-industrialisation of our country (now almost complete) was actually hurting people... either didn't know or didn't care.
don_dunstan
The Hawke/Keating term up until the late 80's moderised the economy including off loading outdated govt run entities and dealing with the backward unions and outdated work practices and prevented the country from becoming irrelevant on the global stage. We actually started to manufacturing back.

The industry we lost we were always going to loose with the rise of China and India as alt low cost manufacturing bases for basic items.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Like Keating from Bankstown it was almost inevitable he’d end up in the Labor Party. He found his niche as a party power broker and relished it. Apparently wielding power was better than sex or a good feed and by various accounts he had plenty of both.
Both him and Hawke have a special spot waiting for them in hell... classic bait and switch, the working class went backwards under their benevolent 'reforms'. I saw an interview with Keating recently and he still doesn't get the fact that his own constituency categorically rejected him and his social justice crusade. People living a hand-to-mouth existence don't really care about things like Aboriginal reconciliation or the glass ceiling - it's not their most pressing issue. Keating was so isolated from the electorate he just didn't get that the rapid de-industrialisation of our country (now almost complete) was actually hurting people... either didn't know or didn't care.
If Hawke and Keating had not done what they did then Australia would be in a far worst condition. One job, one man operating in outdated old smoke stack industries that were totally noncompetitive. They did what needed to be done. If you want a real villain, then look no further than little Johnnie Howard who squandered the mining boom giving away this once in a life time opportunity to the punters who spent hand over fist on imported products.
Respectfully disagree, the Button Plan (in retrospect) was all about completely destroying the car industry; Keating actually thought that the workers would be grateful to him for shoving them into low-pay service industry jobs... these people supposedly the workers friends. Howard probably accelerated that process by throwing Ford to the dogs when the Thai government wouldn't allow them to compete in Thailand as per that stupid lop-sided "free-trade" agreement.

We're reaping 30 years of Thatcherite policies now anyway - living standards are crashing across the country, average people can't pay their bills any longer.
don_dunstan
The button plan was about speeding up what would have happened anyway trying to make viable what we need.

What killed the button plan was the rise of SE ASian and Eastern European manufacturers. Today there are 65 car manufacturers importing into Australia. When the Button Plan was announced there was less than 1/3 as many.

Howard or any govt didn't kill off the car manufacturing sector although I will agree some purchasing practices by govt departments didn't help. Ford announced the E series would likely be the last designed Ford for Australia in Australia at the time as the volumes didn't support the costs. The design of the AU series was a stuff up by Ford and the beginning of the end and their departure has been on the cards and predicted even before the $A boom.  

Nissan shut down due to a lack of sales on the Pulsar and their last advertising was "if you don't like this car, we give up" I owned one of the last models, NC Pulsar I believe and I loved it.

Mitsubishi left because of lagging sales on the Magna and then the switch to the 380 killed it. I doubt they even paid for the new tool bits. It was a disaster.

Holden closed because of US govt pressure and sales of the Commodore a fraction of their peak when Commodores were at one stage 20% of the entire Australian car market. In the end the 3 car manufactures sold less than cars combined than Holden did of the Commodore in the 90's alone.

Toyota was ironically the only one truely viable with export volumes, but struggled on assembly cost and couldn't survive alone. ironically its cheaper to import Camry's into Australia than make them here.  

Australia's car design and quality standards are world recognised as Ford, Toyota and Holden continue to design cars in Australia and Ford's QA team surpervise Thailand. Meanwhile key people were poached by Tesla. Yet a number of my recent immigrant friends have all said Aussies told them not to buy Australia cars as they were "perceived" to be of poor quality. So poor that Aussie made Camry's were the model of choice by Dubai's taxi operator and averaged +850,000km each within their 3 year operating life in Dubai. In the Taxi drivers from Pakistan felt driving the Hyundai and Nissan models in the fleet was a punishment.

I remember watch the TV reporter who was there as the last shift finished at Ford, his own comments was. "Its not hard to see why they are closing when you are hard up finding an employee driving one of their cars"

Go to any car manufacturing country in the world and the predominate models on the road is their own. Nothing to do with being foreign or local owned. Go to Australia and most of us don't give a crap and even brag about driving foreign cars. At the end of the day the people who killed off our car sector was us, the voters and owners choosing to buy other cars.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Go to any car manufacturing country in the world and the predominate models on the road is their own. Nothing to do with being foreign or local owned. Go to Australia and most of us don't give a crap and even brag about driving foreign cars. At the end of the day the people who killed off our car sector was us, the voters and owners choosing to buy other cars.
RTT_Rules
Okay, so we aren't patriotic enough. Anything to do with leadership who didn't support the product - or were they too good for that? At the end of the day the thing that will kill the Aussie economy is not enough good quality, well-paid jobs for ordinary people. We just finished off-shoring an entire industry that paid well, had technology and R&D benefits for other industries - the list goes on.

Why do you think the vampires at the Commonwealth Bank have been ringing the bell about wages collapsing - not because they worry about poor old Aussie workers but because they know that a lack of good jobs is probably going to precipitate a whole-of-economy collapse including the Finance, Banking and Insurance sector, the only part of the economy to experience consistent boom-like conditions over the last 25+ years. You can't have a system based on continuous growth in debts (mortgage debt especially) without the incomes being present to back them up; anyone buying a house in Sydney (for example) already needs to commit to taking on an average $600,000 mortgage, do you really think they'll give the privilege of those mega-mortgages to barristas, bum-wiping personal care workers or "Deliveroo" drivers? They can't... that's what's got them worried, average wages actually falling is a clear signal that we are at the end-game. This whole mortgage pyramid scheme relies on new entrants coming in at the bottom or the whole thing collapses.

As ye sows ye shall also reap... YM-Mundrabilla said on another thread, we probably deserve what we're about to get.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Go to any car manufacturing country in the world and the predominate models on the road is their own. Nothing to do with being foreign or local owned. Go to Australia and most of us don't give a crap and even brag about driving foreign cars. At the end of the day the people who killed off our car sector was us, the voters and owners choosing to buy other cars.
Okay, so we aren't patriotic enough. Anything to do with leadership who didn't support the product - or were they too good for that? At the end of the day the thing that will kill the Aussie economy is not enough good quality, well-paid jobs for ordinary people. We just finished off-shoring an entire industry that paid well, had technology and R&D benefits for other industries - the list goes on.

As ye sows ye shall also reap... YM-Mundrabilla said on another thread, we probably deserve what we're about to get.
don_dunstan
Ok, so you agree then stop outsourcing all the blame.

This article pretty much sums it up fairly well, too many brands, local wages too high, limited to no protection, and product going out of fashion...
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/technology/why-australian-car-manufacturing-died-and-what-it-means-for-our-motoring-future/news-story/0428dc235d1b44639459959f5a3bbf9b

While Abbott didn't help the cause the damage was well and truely done by his term and I doubt they could have saved it.

In Qld you had the likes of Premier Anna Bligh skite on about her new imported (what ever) to replace who retiring Calaias.

Remember back in the mid 2000's and China  opened its first local assembly line for its own brand for export but at the time not to Australia and other developed markets, but it was coming as soon as safety standards were improved. They were rolling off the production line at the rate of 1 every 90 sec, 24/7/365. That one assembly line was already more than all of Australia's production combined. For me I remember sitting there and thinking, this is it. If I was in the Australian car manufacturing industry I'd start to look for another job now.

There was alot of talk about did the car manufacturers make the right products? Unfortunately Australia was traditionally a large car market, but none of our regional neighbors were the same apart from NZ. So exporting to them was limited unless you want to make the same small and medium sized cars they do. If you look at the most popular cars, very few would support local assembly on the domestic market alone as the numbers are too low.                      

The free trade agreement between Australia and Thailand certainly didn't help the cause with export options and have no issue with free trade agreements provided they are equal, which this was not.  While I have no issue with some sort of protection of  local manufacturing, the problem is how? Do you tax Dual cab 4 x4 market when we don't make these?

So at the end while at the end it was mostly driven by our own choices, but the govt didn't help and I suspect the population overall opposed any large scale import tariffs to protect cars they don't want to buy.  

Regards
Shane
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Ok, so you agree then stop outsourcing all the blame.
RTT_Rules
What do you mean - outsourcing the blame? You consistently ignore the role of the banking sector in pushing out every other productive industry in Australia because it doesn't suit your narrative.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Ok, so you agree then stop outsourcing all the blame.
What do you mean - outsourcing the blame? You consistently ignore the role of the banking sector in pushing out every other productive industry in Australia because it doesn't suit your narrative.
don_dunstan
As I said before, the manufacturers left because
A) Costs too high, mainly during the $A boom
B) Lack of exports to make the volumes
C) Insufficient domestic demand, and dropping
D) Minimal tariff protection which would have only boosted domestic demand, not exports and hence been insufficient

Now, tell me how the banks are involved?

I did not consistently ignore the role of the banking sector impact because banks don't buy cars, but their customers do and last I looked banks did not vary lending practices according to country of manufacture.  Nothing to do with Narrative and I've yet to read such a reference written anywhere else.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Now, tell me how the banks are involved?
RTT_Rules
House prices to the moon - pressure on wages - ring any bells?

Julia Gillard's house in the shadow of the closed Toyota factory says the story - $180,000 when she bought it in the early 90's but almost a million dollars when she sold in 2013. Borrowing huge amounts of money overseas completely unchecked and using that money to accelerate the cost of living in Sydney and Melbourne to the point where the ordinary working class people who used to live there can't afford to live there any longer.

The banking industry sucked the oxygen out of every other productive enterprise in this country, that's why there's almost nothing left. But never fear - even the banks themselves are on the edge of the black hole that they created staring into the abyss, begging the government to intervene to keep wages artificially high. It will be really poetic - the banks will be the last thing sucked into the economic black hole of their very own creation.

The implosion will be beautiful - and maybe we can start again with a blank slate where banks are properly regulated and kept in their place instead of running rampant allowed to wreak everything else.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Now, tell me how the banks are involved?
House prices to the moon - pressure on wages - ring any bells?

"rest deleted by RTT, as nothing more than dribble"
don_dunstan
What has this got to do with bloody car manufacturing closing down?????
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Now, tell me how the banks are involved?
House prices to the moon - pressure on wages - ring any bells?

"rest deleted by RTT, as nothing more than dribble"
What has this got to do with bloody car manufacturing closing down?????
RTT_Rules
Discussion moved on to the causes - and as usual - you will not pin the blame on the banks.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Now, tell me how the banks are involved?
House prices to the moon - pressure on wages - ring any bells?

"rest deleted by RTT, as nothing more than dribble"
What has this got to do with bloody car manufacturing closing down?????
Discussion moved on to the causes - and as usual - you will not pin the blame on the banks.
don_dunstan
I know you want to blame the banks for everything that you perceive as wrong or evil in the world, but there is simply no link between the banks and the closure of the car industry, nothing zip, nadda!!! If anything it works against them. Aussie's love to bank bash, yet somehow no one else is on this hopeless bangwagon. Its got nothing to do with me. You made a off the cuff statement and it was completely wrong and doesn't make any sense what so ever.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I know you want to blame the banks for everything that you perceive as wrong or evil in the world, but there is simply no link between the banks and the closure of the car industry, nothing zip, nadda!!! If anything it works against them. Aussie's love to bank bash, yet somehow no one else is on this hopeless bangwagon. Its got nothing to do with me. You made a off the cuff statement and it was completely wrong and doesn't make any sense what so ever.
RTT_Rules
You yourself whinge incessantly about the high cost of labour in Australia but refuse to make the link between million-dollar houses in Sydney and Melbourne and the off-shoring of industry.

Banks couldn't do what they've done to the Aussie housing market without borrowing the $1 trillion + that they did off-shore and putting into the hands of Aussies who were more than happy to out-bid each other. As I explained carefully in the other thread, they were not permitted to borrow off-shore without government permission until they managed to get Howard to change the law under the Fraser government.

They shoulder a huge amount of the blame for industry going off-shore and for Australia becoming one of the most expensive places in the world to do business. They urgently need to be re-regulated to bring their reckless practices back into line.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Malcolm Bligh Turnbull, shaping up rapidly as one of the worst Prime Ministers in living memory. Can you imagine Johnny Howard in 2000 blaming Paul Keating for the delivery of a project that wasn't up to scratch? No. Yet Truffles Turnbull thinks that the Labor Party is to blame even though they haven't been in office for FOUR YEARS (ABC);

The NBN was a calamitous train wreck of a project when we came into government in 2013," Mr Turnbull said.
"Kevin Rudd said this was going to be fantastically commercial and the public would be lining up to invests in it. That's nonsense."

Is there any level that Truffles won't stoop to in order to avoid taking responsibility for his bad choices? Why wasn't it cancelled as soon as they assumed office if it was that bad?

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