#59minuteballarat

 
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.

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  John.Z Assistant Commissioner



I will get back to you with a TT that is workable, but I have more pressing matters at the moment. Watch this space.

edit:

A couple of things, I have noticed that you have not included Corio and North Shore here, nor have you provided adequate time in your Geelong stopper train to stop at either or both of those stations. Do you suggest not stopping there?

Also, you only provide 1 train every 20 minutes for Ardeer, Deer Park, Tarneit and Wyndham Vale. Don't you think these suburban stations should get a better service than 1 in every 20 minutes? If not, than this would be a downgrade in the frequency these stations currently receive during the peak periods.

Lastly, do you really think a 20 minute frequency would work between Kyneton and Bendigo? Or from Bacchus Marsh to Ballarat for that matter? There is a lot of single track there to work with. Any delay along these single line sections would throw that entire timetable in the bin.

I get you put a lot of work into that, and thanks for that and it is pretty well done, but these are some pretty big flaws.
Gman_86
Thanks for replying to the content of my post, rather than the spelling. I'll reply paragraph by paragraph

Corio and North Shore stations are not stations which have any need to be stopped at. Corio especially is in the middle of no where. North Shore and North Geelong are a 5min drive from each other, Corio about the same from Lara station. Have been on many trains which have stopped at Corio to pick up nobody.

If you ran a train every 3 mins (20tph, where I have provided the equivalent of 18tph), you could run an additional two services to Wyndham Vale stopping all stations. The problem is fitting these all in. One track pair is not really enough to comfortably fit in all of these stopping patterns realistically.

Passing loops can always be installed (or maybe the government can install the original double track back through to Ballarat and Bendigo). If the government wants it, it can be acheived.

This timetable was a result of 59minballarat as a challenge. If you do it for Ballarat, you do the same for Geelong. I was just testing to see if it were possible. It came from a flawed premise, and as you can see, a potential solution does have flaws.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Ballarat never had double track.   Would love to see the full duplication reinstated to the bendigo line and add as much duplication to the ballarat line as reasonably possible.  

Agree that corio is a craphole and nothing should stop at it but I would still keep north shore.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.
tazzer96
Footscray was extended to cater for 9 car Vlocity when it was rebuilt durung RRL works (there is a VL9 marking and Yellow line marked at the Up end of the Up platform) and I assume Sunshine got the same treatment?

BG
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Couple of thoughts.

7 min Southern Cross to Footscray from platforms 1-8 is in fantasy land, the sad fact is current timetables reflect this!
The same can be said for Ardeer - Deer Park, 2 mins is timetabled but its 3 in reality. The flow on would be the 5:09 Geelong service would end up following the 5:06 Bacchus Marsh to Deer Park Junc. As another poster pointed out 3 min gap past Sunbury is not possible due to the signalling. You could keep a 5:50 departure from Sunbury but the following would have to be 5:58/5:59 from memory. North Shore and Corio do get passengers, not huge numbers, but do those passengers still not deserve a service? The refinery at Corio generates passengers as does the bus interchange at North Shore.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Passing loops can always be installed (or maybe the government can install the original double track back through to Ballarat and Bendigo). If the government wants it, it can be acheived.
John.Z
The only line to ever double track to Ballarat was via Geelong. This was singled many decades ago. The straight was always single track.

Passing loops are great, when things run on time. When there are delays though, the passing loops won't get you out of the trouble you will be in with no elasticity in that timetable.

Also as others have said, 3 minute headways Sunbury - Kyneton isn't possible. The signalling is fairly new, only dates back to RFR (2005) and as a country line, it was never intended to accomodate trains every 3 minutes.

The thing is, while we all like to have a crack at PTV and V/line, they are still doing a pretty good job with what they have. As you said, a flawed demand (59 minutes Ballarat - Melbourne) will only see a flawed answer. I still think that a 59 minute Ballarat - Melbourne service is possible, but not with the current stopping pattern. Alter that stopping pattern at your own peril.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Passing loops can always be installed (or maybe the government can install the original double track back through to Ballarat and Bendigo). If the government wants it, it can be acheived.
The only line to ever double track to Ballarat was via Geelong. This was singled many decades ago. The straight was always single track.

Passing loops are great, when things run on time. When there are delays though, the passing loops won't get you out of the trouble you will be in with no elasticity in that timetable.

Also as others have said, 3 minute headways Sunbury - Kyneton isn't possible. The signalling is fairly new, only dates back to RFR (2005) and as a country line, it was never intended to accomodate trains every 3 minutes.

The thing is, while we all like to have a crack at PTV and V/line, they are still doing a pretty good job with what they have. As you said, a flawed demand (59 minutes Ballarat - Melbourne) will only see a flawed answer. I still think that a 59 minute Ballarat - Melbourne service is possible, but not with the current stopping pattern. Alter that stopping pattern at your own peril.
Gman_86
Wow. I had assumed that both Ballarat and Bendigo had been downgraded to single track during the RFR works. Passing loops would obviously be turned into double track throughout eventually, will be needed eventually on both the Bendigo and Ballarat lines. Bendigo at this stage probably doesn't need a flagship service every 20mins in peak on top of a SAS service.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.
Footscray was extended to cater for 9 car Vlocity when it was rebuilt durung RRL works (there is a VL9 marking and Yellow line marked at the Up end of the Up platform) and I assume Sunshine got the same treatment?

BG
BrentonGolding
Ballarat platform 1
Sunshine 3 and 4 (Regional platforms)
Footscray 3 and 4 (originally platforms 1 and 2, now the reigonal platforms)
All of these are definitly suitable for 9 car trains.

Also most platforms at Southern Cross could comfortably handle 9 car trains. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if platform 2 at Southern Cross could handle two 9 car Vlos its that long.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Wow. I had assumed that both Ballarat and Bendigo had been downgraded to single track during the RFR works.
John.Z
The original line to Ballarat was double track throughout, but it was via Geelong, it opened in 1862. The current main line to Ballarat was built later, in stages from either end. They didn't meet in the middle until the difficult section between Bacchus Marsh and Ballan was built, opening in 1889. The Geelong to Ballarat section was singled in parts from as early as 1892.

As for the Bendigo line, yes that was double track throughout its history, only singled in 2005 as a part of RFR works. Still among the greatest moments of government sanctioned vandalism ever commited in Victoria in my mind.

The Geelong - Ballarat line, and the Melbourne - Bendigo line where both built to the highest possible standards in the day, evidenced by the fact that over 150 years later many of the original bluestone bridges and station buildings are still in their original positions, some are even still in use.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.
Footscray was extended to cater for 9 car Vlocity when it was rebuilt durung RRL works (there is a VL9 marking and Yellow line marked at the Up end of the Up platform) and I assume Sunshine got the same treatment?

BG
Ballarat platform 1
Sunshine 3 and 4 (Regional platforms)
Footscray 3 and 4 (originally platforms 1 and 2, now the reigonal platforms)
All of these are definitly suitable for 9 car trains.

Also most platforms at Southern Cross could comfortably handle 9 car trains. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if platform 2 at Southern Cross could handle two 9 car Vlos its that long.
Gman_86
Sunshine Platforms 3 and 4 are 7 cars long at most. An N + Power Car + 5 car N Set is the longest thing I've seen in the platform, and it fit just comfortably. The RRL platforms were designed when a 7 car set was still possible.

Tarneit and Wyndham Vale can fit 8 cars iirc.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.
Footscray was extended to cater for 9 car Vlocity when it was rebuilt durung RRL works (there is a VL9 marking and Yellow line marked at the Up end of the Up platform) and I assume Sunshine got the same treatment?

BG
Ballarat platform 1
Sunshine 3 and 4 (Regional platforms)
Footscray 3 and 4 (originally platforms 1 and 2, now the reigonal platforms)
All of these are definitly suitable for 9 car trains.

Also most platforms at Southern Cross could comfortably handle 9 car trains. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if platform 2 at Southern Cross could handle two 9 car Vlos its that long.
Sunshine Platforms 3 and 4 are 7 cars long at most. An N + Power Car + 5 car N Set is the longest thing I've seen in the platform, and it fit just comfortably. The RRL platforms were designed when a 7 car set was still possible.

Tarneit and Wyndham Vale can fit 8 cars iirc.
TOQ-1
These are the facts :

Waurn Ponds, Marshall, South Geelong, Geelong (all plats) , North Geelong, North Shore, Lara will all hold 7 VL consist.
RRL platforms at Footscray, Sunshine, Tarneit & Wyndham Vale are all 220m long and will hold 8 cars.
Ballarat (both plats) will hold 8 VL cars .

As both Geelong & Ballarat peak services are all effectively at capacity NOW, and RRL is at capacity (train paths)  in peak times; there is an URGENT need to introduce 8 car V/Locity consists on both lines .  To do this the progressive introduction of 4 car V/Locity consists is needed NOW . Ultimately an 80 train VL fleet seems appropriate with 40 as 3 car sets, and 40 as 4 car sets . This will then enable train consist sizes of 3, 4, 6, 7 or 8 cars to be operated (whereas only consists of 3 or 6 cars can currently be run, owing to poor decision making in the past by VLP. )

The Government needs to get cracking on introducing a mix of 3 and 4 car VL consists, and selective platform lengthening on both the Geelong & Ballarat lines or the peak capacity crisis will really bite as an issue leading into the 2018 State election.
Despite being aware of this accellerating peak capacity crisis; Government, the transport bureaucracies and VLP all seem siezed with a paralysis of inaction .  In particular the proposed stabling/servicing location for 4 car VL consists announced back in 2015 at Waurn Ponds, has still not after  30 months turned a first SOD . The Premier & Minister need to start rattling the bars or peak hour commuters will take to the Government with a big baseball bat at the 2018 State election .
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.
Footscray was extended to cater for 9 car Vlocity when it was rebuilt durung RRL works (there is a VL9 marking and Yellow line marked at the Up end of the Up platform) and I assume Sunshine got the same treatment?

BG
BrentonGolding
Looking at some 2014 diagrams sunshine is only 190m.  The RRL platforms at footscray look around 240m.   So footscray is fine for 9 cars, but not sunshine.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

They could extend the platforms at footscray, sunshine and some of the geelong line stations and have 9 car trains.  The bendigo line doesn't require 6 trains an hour so you leave some of these spaces free for timetable padding or put some through to wyndham vale.
Footscray was extended to cater for 9 car Vlocity when it was rebuilt durung RRL works (there is a VL9 marking and Yellow line marked at the Up end of the Up platform) and I assume Sunshine got the same treatment?

BG
Looking at some 2014 diagrams sunshine is only 190m.  The RRL platforms at footscray look around 240m.   So footscray is fine for 9 cars, but not sunshine.
tazzer96
Then maybe they don't want trains to stop at Sunshine?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

If a V/Lo is 9 carriages long, it's probably full from Melbourne. Therefore, I'd say it probably wouldn't stop at Sunshine.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Wow. I had assumed that both Ballarat and Bendigo had been downgraded to single track during the RFR works. Passing loops would obviously be turned into double track throughout eventually...
John.Z

Perhaps do some actual travelling and see for yourself the Ballarat line for example was quite an engineering marvel of the 19th Century and that it would be hideously expensive to duplicate from Rowsley Loop to somewhere near where the former Ingliston station once stood.

Mike.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Wow. I had assumed that both Ballarat and Bendigo had been downgraded to single track during the RFR works. Passing loops would obviously be turned into double track throughout eventually...

Perhaps do some actual travelling and see for yourself the Ballarat line for example was quite an engineering marvel of the 19th Century and that it would be hideously expensive to duplicate from Rowsley Loop to somewhere near where the former Ingliston station once stood.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I travel between Geelong and Spencer St enough times a week, to stop me from wanting to get on any other VLine service if possible. But I'll go for a trip this weekend and give a report back.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
In addition to the Ingliston Bank, the other major obstacles to full duplication are the single track viaducts on the Dunnstown-Millbrook (aka Spreadeagle) deviation and the Melton Weir Viaduct. Mind you the latter might be slated for replacement in the medium term after the bridge inspection scare they had last year. That project would be a good opportunity to also duplicate between Melton and Bacchus Marsh. In light of that, I think it's fair to say that the Ballarat line won't be fully duplicated for a long time.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The original line to Ballarat was double track throughout, but it was via Geelong, it opened in 1862……......
Gman_86

Melbourne – Geelong was single track. It wasn’t fully duplicated until about 1980
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The original line to Ballarat was double track throughout, but it was via Geelong, it opened in 1862……......

Melbourne – Geelong was single track. It wasn’t fully duplicated until about 1980
kitchgp
Yes, but Geelong to Ballarat was double track from the start.

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