Burnley to Camberwell quadruplification

 
  carpet4 Beginner

The PTV Network Development Plan from 2013 includes quadruplification between Burnley and Camberwell on the Belgrave/Lilydale/Alamein lines, as part of Stage 4. I travel frequently on this line and have noticed that all the bridge abutments between Burnley and Camberwell are clearly for four tracks, with only three currently being used. These include rail bridges over Yarra Boulevard/Yarra River, Glenferrie Road, John Street, William Street, Henry Street, Auburn Road and Albert Street, at all of which the space for the additional track is on the south side of the current line.

The road bridges over the rail line are more variable and some would need to be completely rebuilt. Burke Road and Burwood Road bridges in Camberwell seem to have just enough space for four tracks, but the extra track and platform at Camberwell Station on the south side would require changes to the current train stabling layout. The trench west of the station also seems big enough, because of the Alamein line shuttle siding. The creation of the Burnley-Newport line in Stage 4 would presumably negate the need for Alamein line shuttles, so it can be removed. Power Street, Elgin Street, Burwood Road and Yarra Street bridges in Hawthorn and Swan Street bridge in Burnley only span three tracks and would all need to be rebuilt.

The additional fourth track would be added on the south side of the current line between Camberwell and Glenferrie, but would probably have to switch to the north side at Hawthorn Station. The fourth track would then switch back to the south side of the current line after Hawthorn to cross over the Yarra River. I should also note that the rail bridge over the pedestrian underpass at Domville Avenue/Wyuna Avenue/Railway Place in Hawthorn doesn't appear to accommodate four tracks and would have to be extended.

It looks the purpose of quadruplification is to reconfigure the tracks into 2 Belgrave/Lilydale tracks and 2 Alamein/Glen Waverley tracks, called the Ringwood Loop line and the Burnley-Newport line respectively in Stage 4. Presumably the Belgrave/Lilydale pair would handle express services and the Alamein/Glen Waverley pair would handle stopping all stations services, similar to the Cranbourne/Pakenham and Frankston lines between South Yarra and Caulfield.

It would be a great opportunity to fix up all the horrible trackwork at Burnley and Camberwell. It could also include the grade separation of Madden Grove, by extending the Glen Waverley down-line flyover to a bridge over the road, and bringing the up-line up to the same bridge. The only problem with this would be the train stabling on the south side of Madden Grove - could this be relocated?

I suspect it won't happen for a very long time but thanks for reading.

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting reading has any of the development plan actually been delivered?
  steve195 Train Controller

Interesting reading has any of the development plan actually been delivered?
bevans
Going through the main projects:

Stage 1 (2013 - 2016):
Key Projects:
  • Regional Rail Link (RRL), including Tarneit and Wyndham Vale stations, Southern Cross platforms 15/16 (Complete)
  • Seven new trains and associated stabling and power upgrades (Many more than 7 ordered and delivered)
  • Hurstbridge line upgrade and Eltham stabling (Hurstbridge line upgrade under way, not sure about Eltham)
  • An initial order for up to 33 new high capacity trains, each capable of initially carrying up to 1100 passengers and capable of being extended up to 220 metres in length (65 ordered)
  • 40 new V/Locity carriages (Yep)
  • Williams Landing Station (Complete)
  • Grovedale Station (Complete - Renamed Waurn Ponds)
  • Southland Station (Opens soon)
  • High capacity signalling trial on Sandringham line (Nope)

Stage 2 ("within 10 years"):
Key Projects:
  • The Melbourne Metro rail tunnel project, a nine-kilometre rail tunnel between South Kensington and South Yarra via the CBD and via new inner-city stations (Under construction)
  • Duplication of the rail line to Melton (Soon to be under construction)
  • Dandenong Rail Corridor Upgrade (Under construction)
  • Deliver initial order of up to 33 high capacity trains, order and deliver a further 70 trains (Not quite - 65 on order)
  • Installation of high capacity signalling on the Sandringham, South Morang and Hurstbridge lines and between Sunbury and South Yarra (Nope)

I haven't gone through the smaller 'enabling projects.'

      True Believers Chief Commissioner

    Interesting reading has any of the development plan actually been delivered?
    bevans

    The PTV plan had some projects is the wrong time slots. As well as that they have missed a couple of key projects such as extending the Cranbourne line.

    STAGE ONE
    As for progress, it seems the plan may take another 20-30 years to be taken seriously. Generally stage 1 is basically complete for the most part, but note most stuff from stage 1 had planning before the PTV plan was established. The defunct 2008 Transport plan from Labor kinda established some of the projects in stage 1. So technically its timeline should be 2008-2017.

    STAGE TWO
    Most current projects that are delivered by the current government are from stage 2 of the plan. There is one project from stage 4 that have happened such as the Mernda Rail link which was a screw up in the plan. Note the level crossing plan was kinda not prioritised in the plan this is now on top of the current Govs agenda. This timeline seems to me 2015-2026

    As for High capacity signalling part of the plan, that component is the slowed down to implement. The trial is still underway, and got changed to the South Morang corridor. This is different since the current plan is signalling is from Watergardens to Dandenong by 2026. Whereas in the plan wants, Sandringham, Sunbury to South Yarra and the entire Clifton Hill group with the signalling within 2023 (within 10 years after document).

    THE REST
    If I went with the current pacing of the projects. Stage 3 would take 2026-2040. And since stage 4 would be mostly minor upgrades for the most part 2040-2050. Yeah this plan was very optimistic.

    Although the projects are very good in terms of planning, even if some don't make as much sense as some projects. If you looked at the Metro Tunnel future projects and Infrastructure Victoria planning, you would see the PTV planning as a reference since it is basically as mash up of many projects from the past (Rowville, Doncaster), with projects that came up from studies and past plans (Regional Rail link, Metro tunnel 1/2)

    QUADDING
    As for the Quadding of the Burnley group would likely be the last on the agenda, since high capacity signalling would be easier to implement first. If you wanted to Quad, I would start with the Dandenong corridor this has V-lines and freight using the corridor and with the outer edges lying in a urban growth area.
      True Believers Chief Commissioner

    Interesting reading has any of the development plan actually been delivered?
    Going through the main projects:

    • Hurstbridge line upgrade and Eltham stabling (Hurstbridge line upgrade under way, not sure about Eltham)
    steve195

    You confused yourself with the Hurstbridge upgrade, its complete. It is not duplication, it is the upgrades in signalling etc. I tried to find this source to find the completed date back. You should have a quick read and find out Hursbridge line was the last to get rid of man-operated signalling.

    https://static.ptv.vic.gov.au/siteassets/PTV/PTV%20docs/Hurstbridge-Line-Upgrade/HLUP-project-overview-fact-sheet-web-version-updated.pdf
      steve195 Train Controller

    I got that list from the summary report on the PTV website.

    Good pickup though - the current Hurstbridge line upgrade is listed under stage 2.
      LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

    Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
    Why was this posted as a news article? It contains no actual news, only speculation. It's not even original speculation, this subject has been done to death already.

    Nothing has changed. Hawthorn station has always been the major bottleneck due to its heritage listing and the surrounding road bridges that would need total replacement. If you retain the outer local/inner express track configuration then you would have to put in a fourth platform at Hawthorn, which would require expensive land acquisition that couldn't be offset by selling off air rights above the station due to the aforementioned heritage listing. You'd also have to put in a fourth platform at Auburn, which is a total waste of money.
      Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

    Location: Yarra Glen
    Why was this posted as a news article? It contains no actual news, only speculation. It's not even original speculation, this subject has been done to death already.

    Nothing has changed. Hawthorn station has always been the major bottleneck due to its heritage listing and the surrounding road bridges that would need total replacement. If you retain the outer local/inner express track configuration then you would have to put in a fourth platform at Hawthorn, which would require expensive land acquisition that couldn't be offset by selling off air rights above the station due to the aforementioned heritage listing. You'd also have to put in a fourth platform at Auburn, which is a total waste of money.
    LancedDendrite
    Agreed.  Given that some of the infrastructure (mainly bridges) will accommodate a fourth track, it seems a waste not to utilise, but the practical difficulties are far too great.

    But interesting to speculate on how this fourth track would be used, if it existed.  One possibility is that it would be dedicated to express running in both directions, as per the existing centre track.  This would avoid the need to build a new platform at some stations, including (probably?) Auburn.
      railblogger Chief Commissioner

    Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
    Why was this posted as a news article? It contains no actual news, only speculation. It's not even original speculation, this subject has been done to death already.

    Nothing has changed. Hawthorn station has always been the major bottleneck due to its heritage listing and the surrounding road bridges that would need total replacement. If you retain the outer local/inner express track configuration then you would have to put in a fourth platform at Hawthorn, which would require expensive land acquisition that couldn't be offset by selling off air rights above the station due to the aforementioned heritage listing. You'd also have to put in a fourth platform at Auburn, which is a total waste of money.
    LancedDendrite
    Why would you have to put in additional platforms? Why just have two express tracks and two local tracks?
      LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

    Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
    Hawthorn and Auburn are currently serviced by 'local' (Stopping All Stations) services only. The track configuration from Burnley to Box Hill at present is (from north to south): Dn Local, Bi-di Express, Up Local. Quadding would add an additional express track, making it Dn Local, Dn Express, Up Express, Up Local. The Alamein and Glen Waverley flyovers are configured to use the outer (i.e currently local) tracks.
    This is why you would need to build extra platforms at Hawthorn and Auburn. Ideally the local and express tracks would be reconfigured during quadding so that the locals run on the inner tracks, but then you'd have to rebuild the flyovers and change the platform configuration at East Richmond to avoid regular conflicting moves between the local and express lines at Burnley and Camberwell.
      kitchgp Chief Commissioner

    Glen Waverley (Burnley) is between the Down Local and Down Express (becomes Bi-Di east of Burnley), with a crossover from the Down Local to the Down Express (Bi-Di) as well as entry to the flyover from both.
      LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

    Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
    Glen Waverley (Burnley) is between the Down Local and Down Express (becomes Bi-Di east of Burnley), with a crossover from the Down Local to the Down Express (Bi-Di) as well as entry to the flyover from both.
    kitchgp
    For those who prefer a visual reference, VicSig has the relevant signalling diagram. You'd still need to rebuild the Burnley flyover to get a fourth track underneath it regardless of the quad track configuration.
      kitchgp Chief Commissioner

    Apart from the limitations of the Camberwell flyover, switching the express track from the inside to the outside creates problems with up trains. Local and express trains from Ringwood would have to switch and Alamein trains cross Ringwood express trains just east of Camberwell. Glen Waverley trains would have to either integrate with or cross Camberwell express trains at Burnley. This could be solved in the main part by duplicating the flyovers but would be a very expensive exercise. Don't mention East Richmond, (probably require an island platform). The flyover just west of Richmond (MCG) would probably also have to be reconfigured.
      kitchgp Chief Commissioner

    There is room for 4 tracks under Burwood Road at the eastern end of Hawthorn station, as a legacy of the former East Kew line and siding.  It's hard to tell but there appears to be room under the next two bridges (Elgin and Power Streets) albeit with tighter curves. There is space for part of a fourth Hawthorn platform but some land acquisition would be required for the rest.

    Quading Burnley - Camberwell would mainly only benefit those travelling against the peak-flow as a result of local trains not delaying express trains. There may be slight benefit to peak-flow passengers as a consequence of the better overall time keeping. It would seem there are more worthy projects.
      John.Z Chief Train Controller

    There is room for 4 tracks under Burwood Road at the eastern end of Hawthorn station, as a legacy of the former East Kew line and siding.  It's hard to tell but there appears to be room under the next two bridges (Elgin and Power Streets) albeit with tighter curves. There is space for part of a fourth Hawthorn platform but some land acquisition would be required for the rest.

    Quading Burnley - Camberwell would mainly only benefit those travelling against the peak-flow as a result of local trains not delaying express trains. There may be slight benefit to peak-flow passengers as a consequence of the better overall time keeping. It would seem there are more worthy projects.
    kitchgp
    The main benefit of quadding is that for the cost of rail line, you get the benefits of two. Currently the capacity of the Lilydale/Belgrave lines is the same whether there was 2 or 3 tracks, however it does allow for express trains. A 4th track would give double the capacity on the line, as well as allowing express trains to operate.

    This then also gives rise to two independent running groups. Belgrave/Lilydale via City Loop and Alamein/Glen Waverly direct to Flinders St. Neither group would share any track, allowing Alamein trains to be taken out of the Belgrave/Lilydale capacity and giving a faster and more consistent service to passengers on said line.
      rokaifly Station Master

    In the PTV plan, it shows in a rail network map, that they plan to run Belgrave/lilydale trains between burnley and Camberwell
    non-stopping, at all times. If they do quadruple the line between burnley and Camberwell.

    So no extra platforms needed along the line possibly?


      kitchgp Chief Commissioner

    The main benefit of quadding is that for the cost of rail line, you get the benefits of two. Currently the capacity of the Lilydale/Belgrave lines is the same whether there was 2 or 3 tracks, however it does allow for express trains. A 4th track would give double the capacity on the line, as well as allowing express trains to operate.
    John.Z
    It won't double capacity.



    This then also gives rise to two independent running groups. Belgrave/Lilydale via City Loop and Alamein/Glen Waverly direct to Flinders St. Neither group would share any track, allowing Alamein trains to be taken out of the Belgrave/Lilydale capacity and giving a faster and more consistent service to passengers on said line.
    John.Z
    This is essentially what happens now with trains into the city in the AM peak and out of the city in the PM peak. There are two tracks available from Box Hill; Ringwood express trains use the centre track via the City Loop and local trains, Blackburn and Alamein, use the outside track direct to or from Flinders Street (hence the flyover just west of Richmond). Glen Waverley line trains operate direct to Flinders Street in the AM, but via the City Loop in the PM. Island Platform 7 & 8 for the up local and express lines and island Platform 9 & 10 for the down lines at Richmond allows Flinders Street and City Loop passengers to interchange with the minimum delay, ie walk over to the other side of the platform to change trains.
      Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

    Location: Yarra Glen
    There is room for 4 tracks under Burwood Road at the eastern end of Hawthorn station, as a legacy of the former East Kew line and siding.  It's hard to tell but there appears to be room under the next two bridges (Elgin and Power Streets) albeit with tighter curves. There is space for part of a fourth Hawthorn platform but some land acquisition would be required for the rest.

    Quading Burnley - Camberwell would mainly only benefit those travelling against the peak-flow as a result of local trains not delaying express trains. There may be slight benefit to peak-flow passengers as a consequence of the better overall time keeping. It would seem there are more worthy projects.
    The main benefit of quadding is that for the cost of rail line, you get the benefits of two. Currently the capacity of the Lilydale/Belgrave lines is the same whether there was 2 or 3 tracks, however it does allow for express trains. A 4th track would give double the capacity on the line, as well as allowing express trains to operate.
    John.Z
    Regardless of quadding to Camberwell, or even to Box Hill, there would be little or no increased capacity for Lilydale/Belgrave until the single track sections at the ends of those lines are duplicated.
      tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

    It would only allow the extra capacity for regular off peak express services.  Using an Up/up/down/down configuration, there will be no additional capacity unless there is a tunnel into the city added to some point along it.  However, using an up/down/up/down configuration, you could almost double capacity after the metro 1 tunnel is built by having the train using the two southern tracks crossing over to the caulfield loop (with a bit of track reconfiguration)
      Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

    Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
    The people who designed and built the triplication of the Lilydale line 54 years ago had the foresight to build it with allowances in place to permit the contsruction of a 4th track, if it was deemed neccessary that it was needed.

    That does not mean we must build it, rather that if and when we choose to build it that work has already been done, meaning new bridges wouldn't be required.

    That was 1963

    This is 2017

    The state of Victoria does not have a bottomless vault of cash lying around to just build what ever takes our fancy. We must pick and choose that which is required with the most urgency.

    1. Duplication and Electrification to Melton;
    2. Duplication of existing single track sections between Moorolbark and Lilydale, Dandenong and Cranbourne, Altona Loop Line, Gowrie to Upfield and rejuvination of the line beyond Upfield to Roxburgh Park;
    3. Preparatory Planning work for Metro Tunnel 2;
    4. Melbourne Airport Rail;
    5. Quadding of track from Caulfield to Dandenong;
    6. Electrification of Wyndham Vale and Tarneit
    7. Construction of Metro Tunnel 2
    8. Electrification to Geelong
    9. Bringing our signalling and safeworking systems into the 21st century;

    That is just from the top of my head, but all of those are more important than adding a 4th track between Burnley and Camberwell.

    I am not saying that all of those items will happen, but they should all be ahead of quadding Burnley to Camberwell. These areas are where the real growth is, this is where the biggest demand is.
      trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

    Apart from the limitations of the Camberwell flyover, switching the express track from the inside to the outside creates problems with up trains. Local and express trains from Ringwood would have to switch and Alamein trains cross Ringwood express trains just east of Camberwell. Glen Waverley trains would have to either integrate with or cross Camberwell express trains at Burnley. This could be solved in the main part by duplicating the flyovers but would be a very expensive exercise. Don't mention East Richmond, (probably require an island platform). The flyover just west of Richmond (MCG) would probably also have to be reconfigured.
    kitchgp
    I would not bother with East Richmond station, that station is a lemon
      LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

    Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
    There is room for 4 tracks under Burwood Road at the eastern end of Hawthorn station, as a legacy of the former East Kew line and siding.  It's hard to tell but there appears to be room under the next two bridges (Elgin and Power Streets) albeit with tighter curves. There is space for part of a fourth Hawthorn platform but some land acquisition would be required for the rest.
    kitchgp
    Hawthorn has the least amount of available land for a fourth platform. The northern side has enough room for a fourth track but not for a fourth platform without land acquisition, which would be immensely costly as a private hospital butts hard up against VicTrack's land there. In contrast, Auburn and Glenferrie have plenty of space on their southern sides to construct their fourth platforms. The platforms would be side platforms spanning the footpaths (which are on VicTrack land).

    Quadding Burnley - Camberwell would mainly only benefit those travelling against the peak-flow as a result of local trains not delaying express trains. There may be slight benefit to peak-flow passengers as a consequence of the better overall time keeping. It would seem there are more worthy projects.
    kitchgp
    That counter-peak flow is getting stronger and stronger as more and more housing is built in the CBD and inner-city, creating more 'reverse commuters'. The Swinburne University Hawthorn campus that is practically built around Glenferrie station is a significant destination for that traffic and also attracts cross-town commuters that would be travelling against the peak flow once they're on the Burnley line group.
      kitchgp Chief Commissioner

    Re Hathorn: Buildings can be modified; they don't necessarily have to be demolished.
      Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

    Location: Terminating at Ringwood
    If there were ever going to be four tracks from Burnley to Camberwell, only Camberwell and Hawthorn would be able to have new platforms, with Auburn and Glenferrie being bypassed by express services using the new up track. Camberwell would lose some stabling room for a platform and track while Hawthorn could shoehorn in a new platform and track at the down end.

    A crossover would need to be added up of Camberwell station to allow stoppers using the new platform 1 to continue to the Auburn/Glenferrie platforms. This may even allow more Alamein trains to become city services instead of shuttles depending on whether there is enough room in the city for them, with more Lilydale/Belgrave trains becoming express services, shaving several minutes off the journey by only having to stop at Richmond (limited expresses would stop at Hawthorn instead of Glenferrie, otherwise retaining the same type of stopping pattern used by the current Camberwell-Glenferrie-Richmond runs). The down local line would ideally be used all day rather than Metro/PTV pretending it isn't there. The only issue after this would be timing with up Glen Waverley services, assuming the expresses from Camberwell were using platform 1 at Burnley.

    By introducing a frequent seven-day bus service along Burwood Rd this would also take care of a good number of the uni students requiring Glenferrie station. A bus from Camberwell to Victoria Gardens (via Burwood Rd, Bridge Rd and Burnley St) would be a good start, but only if it is a frequent, usable service unlike for example the 285 which is just ridiculous to say the least. A very similar arrangement is already in place with the 901 SmartBus which duplicates the Lilydale/Belgrave lines from Ringwood to Blackburn before heading north, which is in fact a better option than the trains during the day for short trips (on the weekend however, it is every half an hour while the trains are every ten minutes, making it pointless).
      Valvegear Dr Beeching

    Location: Norda Fittazroy
    I'm waitng for some bright spark to suggest putting the fourth track underground at Hawthorn. Rolling Eyes

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