Talks of potential electrification of railway line to Goulburn

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

One day we may get extremly lucky and you will think before hitting submit.
Coal was not the only reason for the western electrification which was done in conjunction with the Northern Electrification to Gosford for the benefit of Commuters and Freight.

ARTC are already fully commited to the Inland rail incase you have not noticed.
Clyde Goodwin2

Maybe some of you should go and do your research before you press submit. The blue mountains line was electrified in the 1950's for coal haulage. In doing so it allowed electric passenger services to operate from bowenfells.

Gosford was electrified in 1960, extended to Wyong in 1982 and then Newcastle in 1984. So not in conjunction with the line across the blue mountains.

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  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
35,000 new homes to be built Menangle to Wilton

http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/Plans-for-your-area/Priority-Growth-Areas-and-Precincts/Greater-Macarthur-Priority-Growth-Area/Map

ss

Wilton and not Picton. The maldon to dombarton rail line runs right through the wilton township and so if anything electric is to occur it will be along that path and not to picton or the existing southern highlands line.
simstrain
simstrain

You just don't get it do you?

First up there is no Maldon to Dombarton railway.  It was never built and on the basis of subsequent studies probably never will be.

Second the proposed route for it does not run through the Wilton township, it is several kilometres to the west of Wilton.  A bit to the west of Bingara Gorge.

Thirdly the nearest rail corridor is the main south and that is where any capacity improvements will occur.  It may require a new station out near the Picton road overpass or elsewhere where there is space for the provision of parking, but that is where it will occur.

Your comments mirror the lack of any grasp of reality which you displayed not too long ago in another thread when you decided that because the elevation at Sydenham was only slightly higher that that at Port Kembla it must be downhill all the way down the south coast.

Suggesting to someone stranded in Campbelltown between trains that they go to Macarthur Square to amuse themselves just confirms a lack of understanding of reality.  What they will do is drive next time, just like I do. And it is not 30-50 minutes, in the middle of the day it can be well over an hour.

Clyde Goodwin2 put it nicely "One day we may get extremely lucky and you will think before hitting submit."  But I doubt it!
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
One day we may get extremly lucky and you will think before hitting submit.
Coal was not the only reason for the western electrification which was done in conjunction with the Northern Electrification to Gosford for the benefit of Commuters and Freight.

ARTC are already fully commited to the Inland rail incase you have not noticed.

Maybe some of you should go and do your research before you press submit. The blue mountains line was electrified in the 1950's for coal haulage. In doing so it allowed electric passenger services to operate from bowenfells.

Gosford was electrified in 1960, extended to Wyong in 1982 and then Newcastle in 1984. So not in conjunction with the line across the blue mountains.
simstrain
Gosford was electrified in 1960 as a separate exercise to the Blue mountains BUT there was a connection.

The freight haulage over the mountains did not reach expectations meaning there was surplus electric motive power, and it was decided that electrifying to Gosford, including Cowan Bank,  would both soak up this surplus capacity and provide significant benefits on the busy Newcastle line.

Actually I think this thread has reached its use by date.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner


Actually I think this thread has reached its use by date.
7334
Definitely.  I do wonder though why simstrain has such a vociferous objection to any suggestion of extending electrification into the Southern Highlands.  I've just come back from there today and the locals would certainly welcome it.  The population is only going to continue growing exponentially over the next few decades and it will need greatly enhanced public transport links.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
So in summary

- its a longterm plan to extend the wires South Coast and SW, the word LONG needs to emphasized, alot

- the main justification for sparking the line to SW appears to be growing crowded trains mostly due to Picton development, get with the program you are not alone. Try Communting from the central Coast

- Also the change of train at Campbelltown, get with the program, change of train will become more common in Sydney as time moves on for all the reasons you do so now.

- Main driver for changing at Campbelltown and crowded trains is lack of additional END cars, however a whole new fleet has been ordered, so problem solved in about 18mths. If the numbers are sufficient, more trains may eventually run straight through and more likely the trains will have more carriages.

Regards
Shane
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


Actually I think this thread has reached its use by date.Definitely.  I do wonder though why simstrain has such a vociferous objection to any suggestion of extending electrification into the Southern Highlands.  I've just come back from there today and the locals would certainly welcome it.  The population is only going to continue growing exponentially over the next few decades and it will need greatly enhanced public transport links.
Transtopic

I'm not against it. I'm being realistic. Asking locals if they want an electric train service is like me asking you if you would like a million dollars. Neither is going to happen regardless of how much you want it to.

There is talk to provide more train services west of lithgow and to the southern highlands but none of that talk is about extending the overhead past lithgow or macarthur outside of a few wishful thinkers like the mayors of these areas. The new regional rolling stock is the driver of this and they will be built in such numbers to replace the XPT and Xplorers on regional service with the Xplorer being moved into interurban services to Goulburn and Bathurst.

While the ARTC has a lease on the main south there will be no extension of the overhead unless either the lease is cancelled or a new line is run on a new alignment. Cancelling the lease will have consequences in regards to dealing with the federal government.

I know the MD line wasn't finished but it was partially built and if you look at the wilton estate you will see where the maldon to dombarton line would go if it was finished and it goes right through the wilton town centre.
  ivahri Train Controller


Actually I think this thread has reached its use by date.Definitely.  I do wonder though why simstrain has such a vociferous objection to any suggestion of extending electrification into the Southern Highlands.  I've just come back from there today and the locals would certainly welcome it.  The population is only going to continue growing exponentially over the next few decades and it will need greatly enhanced public transport links.
Transtopic

It isn't so much that the locals would welcome electrification- more that the future residents will NEED it. Already there are calls to make any further urban land releases in the area to be linked to improved roads and public transport. Despite what the resident nark may think the political reality of losing 3 marginal seats will make both the state and feds very keen to compromise on the ARTC versus electrification.

But comparing the Campbelltown-Picton corridor in the future with west of Lithgow just demonstrates a total lack of reality. Few people commute daily to Sydney from west of Lithgow. THOUSANDS commute from south of Macarthur. That little lump of rock called the Blue Mountains may have something to do with that...
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Sydney Trains would have to build it and maintain it, may as well start putting the poles in, sounds like a great idea.
  Matthew Train Controller


It isn't so much that the locals would welcome electrification- more that the future residents will NEED it. Already there are calls to make any further urban land releases in the area to be linked to improved roads and public transport. Despite what the resident nark may think the political reality of losing 3 marginal seats will make both the state and feds very keen to compromise on the ARTC versus electrification.
ivahri
Electrification to Piction WILL happen, and probably in less than 10 years. The population growth in the region is fantastic and already the roads are swamped and more land releases are planned.

The current government will spend on bigger and bigger roads, spending more than upgrading the railway, but at some point, things will tip and ARTC or not, the railway will get electrified to enable faster and more frequent commuter services to Sydney.

I can't see the electrification going much further, but as the land releases head south. so will the transport demand.  I can't see it getting to Goulburn anytime soon, but possibly Moss Vale.  Further south than Moss Vale and the commute times are just too long without entirely new HSR infrastructure.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I never compared the southern highlands to the west of lithgow. I said that there isn't the rolling stock available until the new regional rolling stock has replaced the xplorers on duty. Xplorers will then be able to add capacity to the endeavours on the bullet and goulburn runs.

Current Bankstown line services will be shifted to macarthur and possibly hurstville via sydenham post metro conversion to free up space on the overcrowded t4 in peak hour. Whatever free spots people mistakenly thought would become available are already spoken for.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Oh and ivahri the area is not a marginal seat. The state seat of wollondilly is safely liberal even with a 4.3% swing against it at the last election.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Question - where is it that people from the Southern Highlands are going in Sydney?  The CBD?  Parramatta?  Elsewhere?
  ivahri Train Controller

Oh and ivahri the area is not a marginal seat. The state seat of wollondilly is safely liberal even with a 4.3% swing against it at the last election.
simstrain
Again you show your ignorance... there are multiple electorates influenced by this. Seats like Camden and Campbelltown have changed parties in recent elections. Wollondilly is a marginal Liberal seat which could well fall to the ALP at the next election. If you think 4.3% is safe in this era you clearly don't understand politics. The seat of Goulburn extends north to Moss Vale and rail has been a major issue. Federal electorates like Macarthur have swung in recent elections- in particular the ALP MP for Macarthur has been VERY vocal about the state of public transport and roads in the area... The National party seat of Hume takes in most of the area from Camden down through the Highlands- about 5% swing would unseat him. 5% right now is nothing...

I'm not wasting my time arguing with you any further. You are clearly someone who is fixated on finding reasons why electrification from Macarthur shouldn't happen, even if you have to make up BS to do it. Pull your head in... if you can't understand that expanded urban passenger traffic is GOOD for rail then you are a goose. People will appreciate the role rail plays more if they depend on it to live... it is NOT all about freight, and ARTC will just have to live with the expansion of the Sydney electrified network. It has been happening for many decades, and the SW & NW are now the only directions that urban growth can move in. The NW may be purely passenger but the SW will become a very important mixed purpose line in decades to come.
  ivahri Train Controller

Question - where is it that people from the Southern Highlands are going in Sydney?  The CBD?  Parramatta?  Elsewhere?
james.au
CBD and Parramatta would be the major destinations, so are Liverpool and Campbelltown. Major industrial areas like Ingleburn, Minto, and Smeaton Grange would attract many...
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Actually I think this thread has reached its use by date.Definitely.  I do wonder though why simstrain has such a vociferous objection to any suggestion of extending electrification into the Southern Highlands.  I've just come back from there today and the locals would certainly welcome it.  The population is only going to continue growing exponentially over the next few decades and it will need greatly enhanced public transport links.
I'm not against it. I'm being realistic. Asking locals if they want an electric train service is like me asking you if you would like a million dollars. Neither is going to happen regardless of how much you want it to.

There is talk to provide more train services west of lithgow and to the southern highlands but none of that talk is about extending the overhead past lithgow or macarthur outside of a few wishful thinkers like the mayors of these areas. The new regional rolling stock is the driver of this and they will be built in such numbers to replace the XPT and Xplorers on regional service with the Xplorer being moved into interurban services to Goulburn and Bathurst.

While the ARTC has a lease on the main south there will be no extension of the overhead unless either the lease is cancelled or a new line is run on a new alignment. Cancelling the lease will have consequences in regards to dealing with the federal government.

I know the MD line wasn't finished but it was partially built and if you look at the wilton estate you will see where the maldon to dombarton line would go if it was finished and it goes right through the wilton town centre.
simstrain
I would not have said it runs through the middle of Wilton, off to the side, but you do know that if the M-D line is ever finished, it won't be in that location. That land will be sold and the line moved west, crossing the highway further south of the interchange then heading north of staying west of the skydiving centre or more likely through it.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner


There is talk to provide more train services west of lithgow and to the southern highlands but none of that talk is about extending the overhead past lithgow or macarthur outside of a few wishful thinkers like the mayors of these areas.              
simstrain
I was reluctant to respond, but sims, you're still not listening.  Do I have to spell it out for you?  EXTENDING ELECTRIFICATION TO GOULBURN, BOMADERRY, BATHURST AND MAITLAND IS THE OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF POLICY BY TRANSPORT FOR NSW AS PART OF THEIR LONG TERM STRATEGY, NOT THE WISHFULL THINKING OF A FEW LOCAL MAYORS.  You may disagree with that, but don't imply that it's just some locals agitating for it.  I suggest you read the future transport strategy and it will set you right.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Since when is Camden in the southern highlands and Campbelltown and Macarthur already have an electrified rail service. More importantly since when did Goulburn become a suburb of Sydney? Rail clearly doesn't affect the election results in Goulburn because Goulburn has had the same rail service regardless of which party was in power.

Hume is a federal seat that covers a lot of area and is not a state seat. It is currently held by the liberals and not the nationals with a 20% margin in the 2 party preferred vote. The state seat of wollondilly has a larger margin in favour of the liberals of 34%.

As for the BS I have made up. What BS would that be? Most of the BS is coming from yourself. A 40+ year plan was produced and it states that electrification to these areas is the plan. Nothing about how in 40 years time we will have gone through at least 10 elections and who knows how many premiers with different agendas.

The SW growth area in Sydney is in the leppington to narrelan area. This is not anywhere near Picton or Goulburn. As for the ARTC. I would like to see you try to cancel a lease with a federal government body whose bosses control most of your purse strings.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Transtopic it is just a paper and not policy. Papers like that get written all the time.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT the reservation is still there and if it was sold then why would the developer keep that reservation for?
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Transtopic it is just a paper and not policy. Papers like that get written all the time.
simstrain
Que?  Are you blind or stupid?  Of course it's policy, whether you like it or not.  It's subject to community consultation, so if you object so strenuously, then I suggest you lodge a submission.  Don't insult my intelligence or that of others on this thread by being so dismissive.
  ivahri Train Controller

Since when is Camden in the southern highlands and Campbelltown and Macarthur already have an electrified rail service. More importantly since when did Goulburn become a suburb of Sydney? Rail clearly doesn't affect the election results in Goulburn because Goulburn has had the same rail service regardless of which party was in power.

Hume is a federal seat that covers a lot of area and is not a state seat. It is currently held by the liberals and not the nationals with a 20% margin in the 2 party preferred vote. The state seat of wollondilly has a larger margin in favour of the liberals of 34%.

As for the BS I have made up. What BS would that be? Most of the BS is coming from yourself. A 40+ year plan was produced and it states that electrification to these areas is the plan. Nothing about how in 40 years time we will have gone through at least 10 elections and who knows how many premiers with different agendas.

The SW growth area in Sydney is in the leppington to narrelan area. This is not anywhere near Picton or Goulburn. As for the ARTC. I would like to see you try to cancel a lease with a federal government body whose bosses control most of your purse strings.
simstrain
This is the problem when you comment on things you don't understand...

Camden commuters are currently forced to drive/bus to Campbelltown. That in turn causes massive congestion on Narellan Rd. I've tried to explain that you before but you just don't listen...

A new road, Spring Farm Rd, is being constructed from east of Narellan through to Glenlee (where it connects to the Hume), and then on to Appin Rd. It will provide not just a direct link from Camden & Appin to the Hume but also to Menangle Park. It would make the time & distance for Appin & Camden commuters to get to a train far more direct and ease congestion on Narellan Rd. All it needs is electrification extended to Menangle Park.

Get it?

Camden, Appin, Wilton, and Picton are all interconnected in this issue. They all have the same common issue AND solution.

Not even going to get into your political dribble. Suffice to say I've been around the political traps in this area far more than you have... Mate you are a dead set dribbler. I've personally seen these electorates swing on far less sensitive issues than this. Only a fool would think that a lease between an agency & a state couldn't be renegotiated VERY easily. The ARTC is a CROWN owned statutory corporation- it cannot sue the Crown (in the State of NSW). Nearly 40 years of dealing between state entities has taught me the law a little more deeply than you.

And they control the purse strings? Bahahaha... mate you are a jackass. They control the purse strings. The states have the GST revenue... You've been smoking some rail industry wacky tabaccy...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Ivahari you haven't explained anything and you are the one making stuff up. I gave you numbers and not dribbel and outside of the GST which has to be used on health, education, police, ambulance, fire etc and not just rail. The federal government controls other money like income tax and royalties from mining etc.

Your sense of direction seems to be misplaced as well. You say new housing around picton when what you are talking about is the housing estates around Narellan and Camden. Picton is on the southern side side of the razorback range and is 25km's from Camden. Campbelltown and Leppington are both closer and have electric trains and Narellan will be getting an electric train line as part of the future SWRL extension.

Extension to Menangle park is a no brainer since the poles already extend half way to menangle park as it is courtesy of the glenlee coal mine. Separation from the ARTC lines could be maintained as well negating that issue. Maybe you could explain to me how picton station could handle any extra patronage when the car park is already full and it only holds maybe 50 spaces.

The spring farm parkway will be nice to connect camden and narellan with appin but how will this encourage people to picton when it looks to be a new connection into macarthur and campbelltown then it is to entice people to picton.
  ivahri Train Controller

I haven't made anything up... you are the one that has argued that the NSW government would not want to pick a fight with the ARTC or they will somehow withhold funding... you haven't explained by what mechanism that would be achieved. I'm calling you out... that is BS. They don't have the power OR the influence, politically, legally, or legislative...

As for being geographically challenged you are talking about my backyard, an area I have lived in and even politically represented. I understand far better than you how the transport planning for one suburb impacts on the others around it. You are so bogged down in trying to prove why something can't happen because Picton can't fit a car park (Really? You don't believe that in such a large project that something so basic can't be resolved? Ever heard of land acquisition?) while a number of us have suggested ways which will allow gradual electrification to Picton.

I'm glad we agree on one solitary item. The Menangle Park electrification is a no brainer. It is but a first step towards Picton that will take time- nothing happens over night but given the rate of growth in this corridor it will happen far quicker than many imagine.
  exarmidale Train Controller

Picton and it’s surrounds is definitely on the urban growth radar.
New Picton High School underway all be it design stage before going to tender.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Although I am not familiar with that area from Liverpool to Goulburn, of the three areas for population expansion, the Blue Mountains Corridor west of Penrith doesnt have much room for further major expansion, the area including the Hills from North Mead out to Richmond/Windsor/Willbeforce does but lacks mass transit although part of that is being addressed from Rouse Hill to Epping, the southern area already has both the Hume Highway and the Main Southern line already in place which can only attract more expansion for future growth.

Unless there is a major policy change, the chances of electric locomotives used for freight haulage appears to be fairly slim,  the question is, can the cost of electrification of the line to Goulburn be justified for passenger use only?

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