NSWGR 38's With Green Smokeboxes - Which Ones and When?

 
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

Hi Guys

I'm doing a bit of research and am trying to get some definitive dates as to when each of the non streamlined 38 Class had a Green Smokebox and if possible dates when they were painted like this.

So far I have a starting list below of which ones I can find either photographic or written evidence of having a Green SB along with dates.

If anyone can add to this list, or especially add some pics that would be great.

Cheers
Darren

3806 Black Smokebox - As originally repainted Green from Grey.
3806 Black Smokebox - 28 March 1947.
3806 Black Smokebox - 8 April 1948.
3806 Green Smokebox - No Date.


3807 Black Smokebox - June 1948. Cowan Bank Collision.
3807 Black Smokebox - 9 February 1952. Allover black at this point in time.


3808 ? Smokebox - January 1954. Repainted in Green for upcoming 1954 Royal Tour.


3809 Black Smokebox - April 1946.


3811 Green Smokebox - May 1947. The Railways at Work Vol 3 p69.
3811 Green Smokebox - November 1948. The Railways at Work Vol 1 p65.


3813 Black Smokebox - June 1952. Painted Allover black after medium repair.
3813 Black Smokebox - August 1952. Repainted in Green again, and so was Black for two months of its life.
3813 Black Smokebox - 1955 Centenary.
3813 Black Smokebox - Sep 1955 to late 1957.
3813 Green Smokebox - 16 March 1958.
3813 Green Smokebox - 31 December 1959.
3813 Green Smokebox - No Date, Junee, pic from Steam in the Sixties.
3813 Green Smokebox - 16 January 1960.
3813 Black Smokebox – 23 January 1960. Up Flyer handover to 4609 at Gosford.
3813 Black Smokebox - 11 June 1960.
3813 Black Smokebox - 13 June 1960.
3813 Black Smokebox - 14 April 1962. With 3830 Spirit of Progress Green SB.
3813 Black Smokebox - December 1964.
3813 Black Smokebox - 31 May 1967. Single Yellow Line on Boiler/Cab/Tender, Cardif Painted.


3814 Green Smokebox - November 1948.
3814 Green Smokebox - Circa 1949.


3815 Green Smokebox - September 1947.


3816 Green Smokebox - July 1955.


3817 Green Smokebox - 29 September 1947. Junee Loco Depot Opening.
3817 Green Smokebox - 29 December 1951. Most probably green, Steam in the
Fifties.


3819 Green Smokebox - 1951. Most probably green, Steam in the Fifties.


3820 Green Smokebox - May 1948.
3820 Green Smokebox - 1952 repaint. Black cylinders dual square lining.
3820 Green Smokebox - 4 January 1954. Newcastle Flyer,  Driver Bert Webb retirement drive.
3820 Black Smokebox - 10 May 1955 at latest.


3821 Green Smokebox - 1948.
3821 Black Smokebox - 3 November 1954.


3822 Green Smokebox - 30 April 1948.


3823 Green Smokebox - 2 October 1948.
3823 Green Smokebox - 1949. Possibly Green B&W photo in Flyer.


3824 Black Smokebox? - No Date, colour pic at Gosford.


3825 Green Smokebox - December 1948.
3825 Green Smokebox - Early 1949.


3826 Green Smokebox - 1950's undated. Probably Green. The Railways at Work Vol 1
p70.


3830 Black Smokebox - 26 October 1961. Very clean lighter green, freshly painted?
3830 Black Smokebox - 14 April 1962. With 3813 Spirit of Progress Blk SB.
3830 Black Smokebox - April 1965.
3830 Black Smokebox? - 22 October 1965.
3830 Green Smokebox - Late 1965 Illawarra Tour with 3313.
3830 Green Smokebox - 22 January 1966.
3830 Green Smokebox - 21 May 1966. Numerals either side of buffer beam.
3830 Green Smokebox - August 1967. Numerals either side of buffer beam.
3830 Green Smokebox - No Date, 3830 all on Firemans Side Buffer Beam (date?)

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  M636C Minister for Railways

Technically, 3806 entered sevice in overall grey...
But there are photos showing 3806 in green with a black smokebox alongside 3801 still in grey. This photo shows the smokebox to be freshly painted but the green does not look fresh which might imply a change...

Photos of freshly painted 38 class are generally taken at Eveleigh Carriage works, including Cardiff built locomotives, suggesting that they were all painted green at Eveleigh.

3807 was built with a rounded funnel casing vaguely like those on Union Pacific FEF-3 locomotives (but much smaller). This would suggest that the intention was to paint the smokebox green. The chimney itself was usually painted black.

There seems to be an inconsistency in your list regarding the smokebox colour for the 1962 Spirit delivery run. Both 3813 and 3830 had black smokeboxes that day.

One addition...

3810 - opening of Hawkesbury Bridge, 1946...

Difficult to tell in B&W photos but believed to be black smokebox.

M636C
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

Fixed the 1962 Spirit reference, must have been a copy and paste error.

The as built dates are not quite as important as when they went from green to black, and more importantly which ones changed again to green like 3813 and 3830, as well as any others that got the green more than once during service.

After spending some time going through the "38" book page by page and
carefully looking at all pics, it would appear that green smoke boxes were not all green at the same time!

On page 79 there is a pic of 3806 as delivered with a black SB, and then at some time later but the date not noted with a green SB.

The caption reads "It appears as though when originally built 3806 to 3810 all had black smokeboxes and all the engines thereafter were green.

It's amazing how little photographic evidence there seems to be of the all green engines, let alone colour images.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

I just found a pic dated 25th October 1958 captioned "Locomotive 3813 repainted and lined out at Sydney Central Station, 25 October 1958".
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-vn4541306-v

It very much appears to be all one colour, with quite distinct differences in the parts that are black or green. This could be the date when it changed from black smokebox as of the 1955 Centenary to green smokebox.

This puts 3813 as having a Green Smokebox between 25th October 1958 and the 16th January 1960, and no later than 11th June 1960 when it was again black.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

I found another pic of 3830 at Central on the 22nd January 1966 at the head of a Special to Goulburn. This is the earliest pic of her with a Green SB I have found so far.

I also found a pic of 3823 at Central with a Green Smokebox dated 2nd October 1948. It's black and white but it is pretty clear as to the all green boiler and smokebox.

I've found a whole lot of 38 Class pics from the 40's and 50's but being black and white it's extremely hard to tell either way what the SB colour is.

I have amended the list in the first post with new information.
  M636C Minister for Railways

I am still concerned by your references to 3806 being green "as delivered".

3806 was delivered in grey and was photographed alongside a streamlined locomotive also in grey.

It was, of course painted green at Eveleigh Carriage Works (I think) at some time, but not before working trains in normal service.

Photos of the 38 class used for testing of the Hawkesbury River Bridge on 24 June 1946 show that six locomotives were used. The only one clearly painted green was 3805 (which of course had a green smokebox...). 3802 and 3803 and at least one other streamliner were definitely grey. The smokebox visible of one non streamliner in one of the six locomotive views does not appear to be painted in any final paint.

A shot with only three locomotives shows 3805 leading two non streamlined locomotives apparently in grey (at this date probably two of 3806, 3807 or 3808). The lining on 3805, freshly painted (and I understood the first locomotive to be painted green post war) is very clear and I would expect any lining on the non streamlined locos to show up in the same lighting...

3810 was freshly painted green on the opening train on 1 July 1946.

So references to 3806 should refer to "first green livery" rather than "as delivered"...

M636C
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

I've made the correction to the as delivered to read as first repainted in green.

Was 3810 in all Green on 1 July 1946? I assume so but just making sure.
  Groover Train Controller

Location: A long way from home
I remember 3830 fresh out of overhaul with green smokebox working the SPER tour to Bathurst, as far as Lithgow in 1965, or was it '66.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Was 3810 in all Green on 1 July 1946? I assume so but just making sure.
"Dazz"


The official B&W photos don't allow any idea of the smokebox colour. The angle of the light and the highly polished state of the locomotive mean you can't tell. I'm told that Phil Belbin took colour movies of the train (which was facing Sydney) climbing Cowan Bank after the ceremony and that clearly shows a black smokebox on 3810.

M636C
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

I remember 3830 fresh out of overhaul with green smokebox working the SPER tour to Bathurst, as far as Lithgow in 1965, or was it '66.
"Groover"


3830 was definitely all green in 1965/66.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/intervene/3362270286/
  M636C Minister for Railways

Looking at recent additions to john Buckland's NLA photographs, it seems that 3807 at Junee loco coal stage had a black smokebox in 1951. However, there are two photos. The view from the front could be either colour, but the rear view is clearly black...

M636C
  5814 Chief Train Controller

Dazz, sorry if stating the obvious I am assuming the materials you have consulted would include the RTM published book "Flyer"?

I gave my copy away some time back but it has several useful shots albeit in black and white including from the Hawkesbury River bridge testing - five streamliners plus one non streamlined (not two as stated in another post), 3805 the only pointy nose in green as has been said, also interestingly the grey nurses seem to be in at least two different shades of grey, one shade 3801s and another much darker, can't specify the non streamliner other than that it was not 3806 (I remember as a youngster reading the book being faintly disappointed about that minor lack of symmetry or whatever)

Also "38" to which you have referred of course ...
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

Yes Flyer is one of the books I have gone through (I have two copies actually, don;t know how that happened!), although there are a lot of pictures without dates, and others are near impossible to make out colour either way.

The "38" book has a lot more info, but it would seem that green smokeboxes were not a particularly interesting enough thing to go into much detail on.

I have gone through some very large online photo sites and whilst there are plenty of photos, between those that are B&W and picking colours is near impossible, and those without actual dates, for my purposes most of them are not of any help.

All in all though even the current list of dates, especially on 3813 is pretty damn good. To have narrowed down when it went from green SB back to black within a week in Jan 1960 is pretty damn good. It's really only when it went from first being all green in the 40's to having a black SB that's eluding me now.

Below is what I have used so far as reference material from my own collection!

* Australias Golden Age Of Steam.

* Seasons Of Steam by Laurie Andreson.

* Four Decades Of Railway Photography by Fred Saxon.

* Early Diesel And Electric Locomotives Of The NSWGR by M.Morahan.

* Steam In The Sixties by L Crow, D Mclean and R Selems.

* Chasing Australia Last Steam Trains.

* Full Steam Across The Mountains by Phil Belbin and David Burke.

* The Lithgow Zig Zag.

* 38 by John B. Thomson.

* Day Of The Goods Train by Ron Preston.

* Day Of The Passenger Train by Ron Preston.

* Flyer by the N.S.W. R.T.M.

* The Richmond Vale Railway by Ron Preston.

* Locomotives of Australia by Leon Oberg.

* Steam on the Illawarra.

* Rail Views New South Wales

* Byways Of Steam no.10 and no.12.

* Railway Album No.2
* Railway Album No.5
* Railway Album No.7
* Railway Album No.9
* Railway Album No.10

* Newcastle Express.

* Rail Scene New South Wales Volume 12 by John Sargent

* Railways of NSW - In Steam, Short North by Ron Preston.

* Railways of NSW - In Steam , On Southern Lines by Ron Preston.

* Memories Of Steam by N.S.W. R.T.M.

* West By Steam by N.S.W. R.T.M.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

I've updated the list with some new information.

Most interesting was that 3813, the only member of the Class never to have been painted in allover black, was indeed allover black for a couple of months in 1952.

It seems that during a medium repair in June 1952 the engine was painted allover black, and then two months later had a repaint in August 1952 back to Green.
  xke9600hp Train Controller

A query from the Mexican side of the border:

Blue and gold were the Australian National colours until superceded by Green and Gold (previously the national sporting colours) in the Hawke era.

How and why was the colour Green chosen for some NSWGR locomotives?  Did it reflect some state interest or other significant raison d'etre?
  oneblueengine Locomotive Driver

Location: some where out there
here is 3830 march 1966 southbound out of picton copied from RTM calender 1990
http://www.flickr.com/photos/59802638@N08/5461043478/
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

Thanks very much for that link, I'd not come across that photo before.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

A query from the Mexican side of the border:

Blue and gold were the Australian National colours until superceded by Green and Gold (previously the national sporting colours) in the Hawke era.

How and why was the colour Green chosen for some NSWGR locomotives?  Did it reflect some state interest or other significant raison d'etre?
"xke9600hp"


I don't know that there was any deep seeded reason for green and indeed maroon, it appears to be simply to spruce up the way they looked for the name passenger services. I found this and it basically states the same thing.

"For the 1927 Royal Tour of the Duke and Duchess of York, four of the class (3602, 3615, 3616 & 3617) were painted Royal Blue, with yellow and black lining. Then during the 1930s, a number of coloured locomotives of various Classes were assigned to named expresses. Initially, several 32 Class locomotives were painted in green or maroon for South Coast, Newcastle and Western expresses, and carrying name-plates such as Illawarra, Cambewarra, Hunter, Hawkesbury, Parramatta and Wyong. Some of the 36 Class inherited these name-plates when they took over the Newcastle Express. The named trains (with carriage sets also painted in attractive colours), the coloured engines and the name-plates appear to have been part of a marketing campaign - an attempt to increase customer appeal.

The intervention of World War II meant that no more steam locomotives were painted in colours other than black, and as the 36 Class became due for overhaul and re-paint, they reverted to plain black. After the war, no 36 Class locomotives in normal service were coloured, the 38 Class (after losing their coat of wartime grey) being the only locomotives to be painted green. (However, a couple of 12 Class, 4-4-0 tender engines retained green livery for a short period in the early 1950s)".
  a6et Minister for Railways

A query from the Mexican side of the border:

Blue and gold were the Australian National colours until superceded by Green and Gold (previously the national sporting colours) in the Hawke era.

How and why was the colour Green chosen for some NSWGR locomotives?  Did it reflect some state interest or other significant raison d'etre?
"xke9600hp"


I don't know that there was any deep seeded reason for green and indeed maroon, it appears to be simply to spruce up the way they looked for the name passenger services. I found this and it basically states the same thing.

"For the 1927 Royal Tour of the Duke and Duchess of York, four of the class (3602, 3615, 3616 & 3617) were painted Royal Blue, with yellow and black lining. Then during the 1930s, a number of coloured locomotives of various Classes were assigned to named expresses. Initially, several 32 Class locomotives were painted in green or maroon for South Coast, Newcastle and Western expresses, and carrying name-plates such as Illawarra, Cambewarra, Hunter, Hawkesbury, Parramatta and Wyong. Some of the 36 Class inherited these name-plates when they took over the Newcastle Express. The named trains (with carriage sets also painted in attractive colours), the coloured engines and the name-plates appear to have been part of a marketing campaign - an attempt to increase customer appeal.

The intervention of World War II meant that no more steam locomotives were painted in colours other than black, and as the 36 Class became due for overhaul and re-paint, they reverted to plain black. After the war, no 36 Class locomotives in normal service were coloured, the 38 Class (after losing their coat of wartime grey) being the only locomotives to be painted green. (However, a couple of 12 Class, 4-4-0 tender engines retained green livery for a short period in the early 1950s)".
"Dazz"


The aspect of colour locomotives was (outside of the blue for royal trains) was to basiblly depict certain trains of what would be deeme Pride types, in particular the daylight services. In affect it was publicity, & I think the first was the caves express with blue & white/cream cars & Blue loco with smokebox cars, initially hauled by 35cl.

Other lines received colours to depict what was considered the regional colours, Illawarra had green with green & cream carriages, Western services had the Maroon coloured engines which had the names of localities such as Caralon city (spelling probably wrong)here were 4 32cl painted maroon for that working & did so in relays. A wrap up can be found in Ron Prestons 32cl book.

As for the 35 & 36, it was very much a further image boost to paint them in green, primarilly owing to them being the premier express locomotives of the time & certainly the war years, austerity measures as well as getting staff especially cleaners made keeping them clean was difficult, besides the loco's would likelly have had bare times in depots between trains.

With the introduction of the 38cl, they became the premier express locomotive & the painting was primarilly to represent that status. With the arrival of the 40cl, initially as trials for potential dieselisation, it soon became apparent that steam was finished, & when the order for the 42 & 43 came in, it was then that the 38's were relegated in status with the 42 taking over the Brisbane runs (for a while) & the 43 the intercapital daylight exp. Thus the 38's went to black, except for one.
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Awful thread mining.

Anyway...


3806.  

Black sided smokebox.  14 December 1945 as released into traffic.

https://d2c0ikyv46o3b1.cloudfront.net/eveleighstories.com.au/styles/story_gallery_photos_-_960_x_540_cropped/s3/CM1.jpg?itok=FbERtXbi

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/srnsw-public-photos/17420_a014_a014000225.jpg

Black sided smokebox. 29 January 1946.

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/srnsw-public-photos/17420_a014_a014000229.jpg


3807.
Black sided smokebox.  31/3/1946.


https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/srnsw-public-photos/17420_a014_a014000226.jpg




Said to be 3808.  It may not be 3808, the date seems closer to 3818.  Tender builder's plate shows that we may actually be looking at 3813, which was the only one to have the builders plate one panel back.
Green sided smokebox.  31/12/1947.

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/srnsw-public-photos/17420_a014_a014000230.jpg



3827.  Green sided smokebox.  1948 as released into traffic.

http://eurekamodels.com.au/images/locomotives/c38/3827%201952%20Green.jpg
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Further reply...


When the new Hawkesbury River bridge was tested, six 38s were used.


3801 in grey.
3802 in grey.
3803 in grey.
3804 in grey.
3805 in green.
3807 in green.

Perhaps at this time 3806 was the only other 38 in service, so most of the class in traffic then were used.
  Campaspe 2 Locomotive Driver

Hello,

There is an excellent article by David Oram in the February 2013 issue of "Roundhouse" magazine (page 4) that actually lists the dates the 38s were painted grey, green and black between 1943 and 1955, including the period when their smokeboxes were painted green.

I would highly recommend this article.

Regards

Campaspe
  Phantom47 Locomotive Driver

Location: In The Shire
The February 2013 Roundhouse magazine included a complete list of all the 38s and their colour schemes from 1943.

Phantom
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hello,

There is an excellent article by David Oram in the February 2013 issue of "Roundhouse" magazine (page 4) that actually lists the dates the 38s were painted grey, green and black between 1943 and 1955, including the period when their smokeboxes were painted green.

I would highly recommend this article.

Regards

Campaspe
Campaspe 2
Could someone tell me the period when 3802 and 3829 were painted green then to black please.

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