Eureka AD60 Garratt problem ...help sought

 
  marklandj Station Staff

I have had a Eureka HO Garratt for several years running beautifully ..this has a QSI decoder ...until an inadvertant hefty short circuit the other day since when, despite the decoder being reset every which way (CVs in Ops mode, Magnetic wand, on DC) it steadfastly refuses to move (DCC or DC) despite making sounds and lights functioning correctly. The loco clearly has power.

I am assuming that the problem is with the decoder (unless someone can convince me otherwise) and am trying to get the boiler off to see what version of the hardware I have... and to see what options I might have to change/test the motors with a different decoder.

The 2 holding down screws have been removed as per the instructions and some how or other I appear to have been able to release one side of the boiler but not the other...and am totally stuck.

I am in the UK and know of no one here who can advise.. would be most grateful for useful advice on several accounts... the lack of motion, removing the boiler, changing the decoder (maybe to soundtraxx which I am more familiar with) ..also testing the motors without the centre section (is that feasible?)

Grateful for all help... (in the absence of any email response from Eureka)

Thanks

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  steve_w_1990 Junior Train Controller

Location: Trying to fix something on the PTA Network
This probably isn't going to help much, but I had a Trainorama 49 Class that wouldn't respond to a decoder no matter what I did.

After cleaning the wheels down with a bit of metho and a cotton bud, suddenly there was movement, and the locos DCC chip started to respond again.

My other bit of advice is put the loco on an isolated section of track and try and reprogram the chip. If the chip fails to respond then I dare say the chip has corrupted itself.

Getting the boiler off a Eureka Garrett is another matter entirely. I remember quite a few years back there was an article in Australian Model Railway Magazine into how to get a boiler off and it was not by any definition a simple task. I'm not exactly sure of the details, but it did involve using several bits of styrene as wedges to enable removal.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
On DCC try F6 twice, the decoder might think it's in a standby mode (which allows sounds but doesn't respond to throttle commands).  Failing that you could also try F9 a few times to fully shutdown, then F6's to bring it back into full operation status.
  marklandj Station Staff

This probably isn't going to help much, but I had a Trainorama 49 Class that wouldn't respond to a decoder no matter what I did.

After cleaning the wheels down with a bit of metho and a cotton bud, suddenly there was movement, and the locos DCC chip started to respond again.

My other bit of advice is put the loco on an isolated section of track and try and reprogram the chip. If the chip fails to respond then I dare say the chip has corrupted itself.

Getting the boiler off a Eureka Garrett is another matter entirely. I remember quite a few years back there was an article in Australian Model Railway Magazine into how to get a boiler off and it was not by any definition a simple task. I'm not exactly sure of the details, but it did involve using several bits of styrene as wedges to enable removal.
steve_w_1990
It would be really useful if the issue of AMRM could be identified  ...I think I am the stage where boiler removal is essential to make progress
  marklandj Station Staff

On DCC try F6 twice, the decoder might think it's in a standby mode (which allows sounds but doesn't respond to throttle commands).  Failing that you could also try F9 a few times to fully shutdown, then F6's to bring it back into full operation status.
Poath Junction
This was one of the first things I tried ..sadly to no avail
  greendiesel Station Master

Location: Hobart
I have had a Eureka HO Garratt for several years running beautifully ..this has a QSI decoder ...until an inadvertant hefty short circuit the other day since when, despite the decoder being reset every which way (CVs in Ops mode, Magnetic wand, on DC) it steadfastly refuses to move (DCC or DC) despite making sounds and lights functioning correctly. The loco clearly has power.

I am assuming that the problem is with the decoder (unless someone can convince me otherwise) and am trying to get the boiler off to see what version of the hardware I have... and to see what options I might have to change/test the motors with a different decoder.

The 2 holding down screws have been removed as per the instructions and some how or other I appear to have been able to release one side of the boiler but not the other...and am totally stuck.

I am in the UK and know of no one here who can advise.. would be most grateful for useful advice on several accounts... the lack of motion, removing the boiler, changing the decoder (maybe to soundtraxx which I am more familiar with) ..also testing the motors without the centre section (is that feasible?)

Grateful for all help... (in the absence of any email response from Eureka)

Thanks
marklandj
Article is Issue 261 December 2006. I can photograph and email to you if you PM me.  cheers,  Mal
  marklandj Station Staff

I have had a Eureka HO Garratt for several years running beautifully ..this has a QSI decoder ...until an inadvertant hefty short circuit the other day since when, despite the decoder being reset every which way (CVs in Ops mode, Magnetic wand, on DC) it steadfastly refuses to move (DCC or DC) despite making sounds and lights functioning correctly. The loco clearly has power.

I am assuming that the problem is with the decoder (unless someone can convince me otherwise) and am trying to get the boiler off to see what version of the hardware I have... and to see what options I might have to change/test the motors with a different decoder.

The 2 holding down screws have been removed as per the instructions and some how or other I appear to have been able to release one side of the boiler but not the other...and am totally stuck.

I am in the UK and know of no one here who can advise.. would be most grateful for useful advice on several accounts... the lack of motion, removing the boiler, changing the decoder (maybe to soundtraxx which I am more familiar with) ..also testing the motors without the centre section (is that feasible?)

Grateful for all help... (in the absence of any email response from Eureka)

Thanks
marklandj
Thanks for the contributions so far. I am pleased to say that I have now got it running on DC .. so its not the motors. I am pretty sure that on DCC a short is occurring when I send it a signal to start moving. So back to boiler removal and decoder replacement.
  a6et Minister for Railways

This probably isn't going to help much, but I had a Trainorama 49 Class that wouldn't respond to a decoder no matter what I did.

After cleaning the wheels down with a bit of metho and a cotton bud, suddenly there was movement, and the locos DCC chip started to respond again.

My other bit of advice is put the loco on an isolated section of track and try and reprogram the chip. If the chip fails to respond then I dare say the chip has corrupted itself.

Getting the boiler off a Eureka Garrett is another matter entirely. I remember quite a few years back there was an article in Australian Model Railway Magazine into how to get a boiler off and it was not by any definition a simple task. I'm not exactly sure of the details, but it did involve using several bits of styrene as wedges to enable removal.
It would be really useful if the issue of AMRM could be identified  ...I think I am the stage where boiler removal is essential to make progress
marklandj
Its not an easy task getting the boiler off, thing to consider though you were able to get one side off, which basically means you need to repeat the process on the other side.

In saying that, the article IIRC had instructions that required you to have several thin but stiff bits of styrene placed as spacers along the sides to hold the boiler out from the frame and the lugs that hold it in. Once one side is loosened you need to repeat the process on the other side.

Main problem area seemed to be around the firebox and getting that separated on both sides.

The key also is to use a strong but thin box cutter like tool and use the blade to carefully go along the sides and place the styrene strips as the lugs separate.
  marklandj Station Staff

This probably isn't going to help much, but I had a Trainorama 49 Class that wouldn't respond to a decoder no matter what I did.

After cleaning the wheels down with a bit of metho and a cotton bud, suddenly there was movement, and the locos DCC chip started to respond again.

My other bit of advice is put the loco on an isolated section of track and try and reprogram the chip. If the chip fails to respond then I dare say the chip has corrupted itself.

Getting the boiler off a Eureka Garrett is another matter entirely. I remember quite a few years back there was an article in Australian Model Railway Magazine into how to get a boiler off and it was not by any definition a simple task. I'm not exactly sure of the details, but it did involve using several bits of styrene as wedges to enable removal.
It would be really useful if the issue of AMRM could be identified  ...I think I am the stage where boiler removal is essential to make progress
Its not an easy task getting the boiler off, thing to consider though you were able to get one side off, which basically means you need to repeat the process on the other side.

In saying that, the article IIRC had instructions that required you to have several thin but stiff bits of styrene placed as spacers along the sides to hold the boiler out from the frame and the lugs that hold it in. Once one side is loosened you need to repeat the process on the other side.

Main problem area seemed to be around the firebox and getting that separated on both sides.

The key also is to use a strong but thin box cutter like tool and use the blade to carefully go along the sides and place the styrene strips as the lugs separate.
a6et
Thanks.. will try that
  a6et Minister for Railways

This probably isn't going to help much, but I had a Trainorama 49 Class that wouldn't respond to a decoder no matter what I did.

After cleaning the wheels down with a bit of metho and a cotton bud, suddenly there was movement, and the locos DCC chip started to respond again.

My other bit of advice is put the loco on an isolated section of track and try and reprogram the chip. If the chip fails to respond then I dare say the chip has corrupted itself.

Getting the boiler off a Eureka Garrett is another matter entirely. I remember quite a few years back there was an article in Australian Model Railway Magazine into how to get a boiler off and it was not by any definition a simple task. I'm not exactly sure of the details, but it did involve using several bits of styrene as wedges to enable removal.
It would be really useful if the issue of AMRM could be identified  ...I think I am the stage where boiler removal is essential to make progress
Its not an easy task getting the boiler off, thing to consider though you were able to get one side off, which basically means you need to repeat the process on the other side.

In saying that, the article IIRC had instructions that required you to have several thin but stiff bits of styrene placed as spacers along the sides to hold the boiler out from the frame and the lugs that hold it in. Once one side is loosened you need to repeat the process on the other side.

Main problem area seemed to be around the firebox and getting that separated on both sides.

The key also is to use a strong but thin box cutter like tool and use the blade to carefully go along the sides and place the styrene strips as the lugs separate.
Thanks.. will try that
marklandj
Be careful along the straight plastic side that represents the main cradle in the separation and make sure you get the cutting blades between the cradle. Hard to explain but care is needed.
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

This sounds like the classic QSI in La-La land.

This was sent to me many years ago, and has worked everytime for me. Follow it carefully...

=============================================================================

Paul,







The following -may- be your problem.







There are some CVs in the QSIs - that are not available to



you in programming and which are not affected by a reset -



that determine the started/shutdown status of the decoder.



And there is a state (more than one) where they get into



an in between started up and shut down where they will



make sounds but not move. And this will endure across



power ups/downs, moving the loco on/off the layout, etc.







The only way to fix them is to go thru what is referred



to as "the double F9 followed by the double F6 dance".



Depending upon your DCC system a "double" may require



either 2 or 4 presses of the function keys.



And there is a "timing thing" where if you don't do the



double command in the right sequence (duration) it



doesn't take. If you have the timing right then you -will-



hear an "air let off" sound - and that's the only way to



know if you have pressed the right number of times and



within the required time window.







Still another gotcha. The first time you get it to do the



air let off after a double-F9 you still need to wait. At



least 30 seconds or so (until the sound changes that



you hear have settled down completely) ... and then



do another double-F9 ... and wait again. When you are



done the loco should be totally quiet.



Now roll the loco off the rails on one side and keep it



out of contact for a minute or so.



Roll it back down and wait at least 30 seconds. Then



go thru the double-F6 (again listening for the air let



off), again waiting until the sound sequence completes,



doing another double-F6, waiting ... and finally, if this



was the problem ... it will run again.







That in between state is almost always caused by a



long running short that goes thru several retries.







The basic idea is to get them fully shut down and then



fully started up (with a full power off between).







- Hope this helps ... Jim Betz in San Jose, Ca.
  marklandj Station Staff

This sounds like the classic QSI in La-La land.

This was sent to me many years ago, and has worked everytime for me. Follow it carefully...

=============================================================================

Paul,







The following -may- be your problem.







There are some CVs in the QSIs - that are not available to



you in programming and which are not affected by a reset -



that determine the started/shutdown status of the decoder.



And there is a state (more than one) where they get into



an in between started up and shut down where they will



make sounds but not move. And this will endure across



power ups/downs, moving the loco on/off the layout, etc.







The only way to fix them is to go thru what is referred



to as "the double F9 followed by the double F6 dance".



Depending upon your DCC system a "double" may require



either 2 or 4 presses of the function keys.



And there is a "timing thing" where if you don't do the



double command in the right sequence (duration) it



doesn't take. If you have the timing right then you -will-



hear an "air let off" sound - and that's the only way to



know if you have pressed the right number of times and



within the required time window.







Still another gotcha. The first time you get it to do the



air let off after a double-F9 you still need to wait. At



least 30 seconds or so (until the sound changes that



you hear have settled down completely) ... and then



do another double-F9 ... and wait again. When you are



done the loco should be totally quiet.



Now roll the loco off the rails on one side and keep it



out of contact for a minute or so.



Roll it back down and wait at least 30 seconds. Then



go thru the double-F6 (again listening for the air let



off), again waiting until the sound sequence completes,



doing another double-F6, waiting ... and finally, if this



was the problem ... it will run again.







That in between state is almost always caused by a



long running short that goes thru several retries.







The basic idea is to get them fully shut down and then



fully started up (with a full power off between).







- Hope this helps ... Jim Betz in San Jose, Ca.
FirstStopCentral
wow.. I wasnt aware of all the waiting .... will be easier than removing the boiler if it works! thanks
  marklandj Station Staff

This sounds like the classic QSI in La-La land.

This was sent to me many years ago, and has worked everytime for me. Follow it carefully...

=============================================================================

Paul,







The following -may- be your problem.







There are some CVs in the QSIs - that are not available to



you in programming and which are not affected by a reset -



that determine the started/shutdown status of the decoder.



And there is a state (more than one) where they get into



an in between started up and shut down where they will



make sounds but not move. And this will endure across



power ups/downs, moving the loco on/off the layout, etc.







The only way to fix them is to go thru what is referred



to as "the double F9 followed by the double F6 dance".



Depending upon your DCC system a "double" may require



either 2 or 4 presses of the function keys.



And there is a "timing thing" where if you don't do the



double command in the right sequence (duration) it



doesn't take. If you have the timing right then you -will-



hear an "air let off" sound - and that's the only way to



know if you have pressed the right number of times and



within the required time window.







Still another gotcha. The first time you get it to do the



air let off after a double-F9 you still need to wait. At



least 30 seconds or so (until the sound changes that



you hear have settled down completely) ... and then



do another double-F9 ... and wait again. When you are



done the loco should be totally quiet.



Now roll the loco off the rails on one side and keep it



out of contact for a minute or so.



Roll it back down and wait at least 30 seconds. Then



go thru the double-F6 (again listening for the air let



off), again waiting until the sound sequence completes,



doing another double-F6, waiting ... and finally, if this



was the problem ... it will run again.







That in between state is almost always caused by a



long running short that goes thru several retries.







The basic idea is to get them fully shut down and then



fully started up (with a full power off between).







- Hope this helps ... Jim Betz in San Jose, Ca.
FirstStopCentral
mmm ....am not having much success here .. what I do see  is that when I try to start the loco in motion, the current goes up to the point that the NCE Power Cab shuts it down and the sound stops.
Cancel the motion and the sound comes back .
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
mmm ....am not having much success here .. what I do see  is that when I try to start the loco in motion, the current goes up to the point that the NCE Power Cab shuts it down and the sound stops.
Cancel the motion and the sound comes back .
marklandj
Short circuit in the motor, its wiring, the H-bridge circuit driving it?
  marklandj Station Staff

mmm ....am not having much success here .. what I do see  is that when I try to start the loco in motion, the current goes up to the point that the NCE Power Cab shuts it down and the sound stops.
Cancel the motion and the sound comes back .
Short circuit in the motor, its wiring, the H-bridge circuit driving it?
apw5910
the motors work on DC ..so I see no problem there
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I had an issue with one of my Eureka Garratts at one stage.

It turned out to be a case of the front driver tyre having come adrift from the wheel and was jammed in the "motion" gear. I had to use tweezers to re-place the tyre onto the wheel and held it there with a couple of carefully placed drops of super glue.

Could be worth checking.

Roachie
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
the motors work on DC ..so I see no problem there
marklandj


Could the issue be the NCE Powercab has been damaged during the "inadvertant hefty short circuit"?  Are other DCC locos working ok from that cab?
  marklandj Station Staff

the motors work on DC ..so I see no problem there


Could the issue be the NCE Powercab has been damaged during the "inadvertant hefty short circuit"?  Are other DCC locos working ok from that cab?
Poath Junction
everything else works fine ..
  marklandj Station Staff

I have had a Eureka HO Garratt for several years running beautifully ..this has a QSI decoder ...until an inadvertant hefty short circuit the other day since when, despite the decoder being reset every which way (CVs in Ops mode, Magnetic wand, on DC) it steadfastly refuses to move (DCC or DC) despite making sounds and lights functioning correctly. The loco clearly has power.

I am assuming that the problem is with the decoder (unless someone can convince me otherwise) and am trying to get the boiler off to see what version of the hardware I have... and to see what options I might have to change/test the motors with a different decoder.

The 2 holding down screws have been removed as per the instructions and some how or other I appear to have been able to release one side of the boiler but not the other...and am totally stuck.

I am in the UK and know of no one here who can advise.. would be most grateful for useful advice on several accounts... the lack of motion, removing the boiler, changing the decoder (maybe to soundtraxx which I am more familiar with) ..also testing the motors without the centre section (is that feasible?)

Grateful for all help... (in the absence of any email response from Eureka)

Thanks
marklandj
Well.. I am in!!! .....thanks so much for the help I have recieved....but it wasnt much fun that's for sure

The decoder is is labelled

407-0v7-37-11
AD60
(C)2010.QSI

It is huge by modern standards.... and I am very much inclined to rip it all out and replace it with something much more self contained and more robust... Does anyone know whether there might be an 8pin socket buried under the decoder ...that would be an easy fix if so.

I am assuming that the wiring colours are to NMRA standard ...anyone know whether  this is this correct????

Finally are the lights LED's ?

Thanks
  a6et Minister for Railways

I have had a Eureka HO Garratt for several years running beautifully ..this has a QSI decoder ...until an inadvertant hefty short circuit the other day since when, despite the decoder being reset every which way (CVs in Ops mode, Magnetic wand, on DC) it steadfastly refuses to move (DCC or DC) despite making sounds and lights functioning correctly. The loco clearly has power.

I am assuming that the problem is with the decoder (unless someone can convince me otherwise) and am trying to get the boiler off to see what version of the hardware I have... and to see what options I might have to change/test the motors with a different decoder.

The 2 holding down screws have been removed as per the instructions and some how or other I appear to have been able to release one side of the boiler but not the other...and am totally stuck.

I am in the UK and know of no one here who can advise.. would be most grateful for useful advice on several accounts... the lack of motion, removing the boiler, changing the decoder (maybe to soundtraxx which I am more familiar with) ..also testing the motors without the centre section (is that feasible?)

Grateful for all help... (in the absence of any email response from Eureka)

Thanks
Well.. I am in!!! .....thanks so much for the help I have recieved....but it wasnt much fun that's for sure

The decoder is is labelled

407-0v7-37-11
AD60
(C)2010.QSI

It is huge by modern standards.... and I am very much inclined to rip it all out and replace it with something much more self contained and more robust... Does anyone know whether there might be an 8pin socket buried under the decoder ...that would be an easy fix if so.

I am assuming that the wiring colours are to NMRA standard ...anyone know whether  this is this correct????

Finally are the lights LED's ?

Thanks
marklandj
As the decoders used in the Eureka Garratt, are old school OEM supplied products and in reality no longer supported, your best option is to replace with another sound decoder.  Which is what I will do when my Eureka Garratt's board dies.

I do not believe there is an 8 pin connector as such, but there are wires to the connection plugs at each end for the motor controls, also check out the speakers that are situated in the firebox, for connections.

As mentioned earlier Linton Towel does incredible work and uses Loksound decoders, and his own sounds in his models, others who I know and do quality installs use either TCS WOW or Tsunami sound decoders, thing is with either of those is that you are getting generic non genuine sounds and based on U.S steam. One of them uses the Wow and has set them up very well so that the in and out sync of the engine units is very good.

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