‘Redesign is underway’ on faster VLocity trains for the North East

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 18 Oct 2017 16:12
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Really, isn't there an opportunity for a decent SG fleet to be put together here using the long distance design?  This fleet would service:
- Albury
- Shepparton post conversion
- Western Vic (ie Horsham-Ballarat(-Geelong?) and Maryborough-Ballarat(-Geelong?))
- Warrnambool (if converted, possible, but probably on the edge of economic rationality to do so)

Surely with a fleet of this size the economics of running it would be favourable (instead of a small fleet/subfleet)?

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Really, isn't there an opportunity for a decent SG fleet to be put together here using the long distance design?  This fleet would service:
- Albury
- Shepparton post conversion
- Western Vic (ie Horsham-Ballarat(-Geelong?) and Maryborough-Ballarat(-Geelong?))
- Warrnambool (if converted, possible, but probably on the edge of economic rationality to do so)

Surely with a fleet of this size the economics of running it would be favourable (instead of a small fleet/subfleet)?
james.au
I don't see that the economics of Vlocities should be different between SG and BG.
The capital cost should be more or less the same and operating costs per km should be no different between the two gauges. Probably, in fact, less variation between a flat run to Geelong v the hills encountered to Ballarat or Bendigo.
Apart from the gauge of the wheelsets what changes ?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Really, isn't there an opportunity for a decent SG fleet to be put together here using the long distance design?  This fleet would service:
- Albury
- Shepparton post conversion
- Western Vic (ie Horsham-Ballarat(-Geelong?) and Maryborough-Ballarat(-Geelong?))
- Warrnambool (if converted, possible, but probably on the edge of economic rationality to do so)

Surely with a fleet of this size the economics of running it would be favourable (instead of a small fleet/subfleet)?
I don't see that the economics of Vlocities should be different between SG and BG.
The capital cost should be more or less the same and operating costs per km should be no different between the two gauges. Probably, in fact, less variation between a flat run to Geelong v the hills encountered to Ballarat or Bendigo.
Apart from the gauge of the wheelsets what changes ?
YM-Mundrabilla
If im understanding it correctly, these new trains will be VLos but with additional features for long distance running, eg buffets, and perhaps some strengthening to allow running over less protected crossings at higher speeds?

Agreed, the MX should be similar but I'm talking about economies of fleet operations - at the moment you've got a small SG fleet that has a few problems operationally keeping service up on the ABX line - this would be mitigated if there were more of the fleet available to run services, ie spares available in the event a set goes out of service.
  MetroFemme Chief Train Controller

If the Albury service had been correctly planned there would not be issues like there are now.
  N463 Locomotive Driver

All I can say is that something needs to be done to replace the rolling stock for Albury services. No wonder Bill Traill is complaining. I for one entirely agree with him having just completed a return journey from there.

The train I had traveled in was filthy inside and out. It had taken 35 mins to get from Southern Cross to Broadmeadows, which is all of 17 kilometres and takes nearly 4 hours to travel 300 kms. It is ridiculous. It must be disheartening for Albury customers pulling in to Melbourne in dirty 1980's carriages pulled by an ancient N Class loco, seeing on other platforms new sleek 160km V/locities operating services to Geelong.

Michael
mejhammers1

Sorry to dampen your expectations here, but simply new rolling stock won't improve the service much at all.

The N set interiors were refurbished a few years ago, and are newer than many of the V/Locity interiors. The state of filth is due to inadequate cleaning, not the age of the rolling stock. It won't take very long for the brand new trains to be just as filthy (as indeed many of the V/Locity sets currently are) unless the basic maintenance is improved as well.

Whilst the V/Locities are capable of running at 160km/h, that is only possible on track that has been upgraded to allow for this, which the North East line currently has not been. If you want to be able to achieve 160km/h then the a lot of money will need to be spent on upgrading the line, which seems unlikely to happen.

N463
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
none of this would of happened if there still was a single BG track to Albury beside 2 standard gauge tracks.
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

All I can say is that something needs to be done to replace the rolling stock for Albury services. No wonder Bill Traill is complaining. I for one entirely agree with him having just completed a return journey from there.

The train I had traveled in was filthy inside and out. It had taken 35 mins to get from Southern Cross to Broadmeadows, which is all of 17 kilometres and takes nearly 4 hours to travel 300 kms. It is ridiculous. It must be disheartening for Albury customers pulling in to Melbourne in dirty 1980's carriages pulled by an ancient N Class loco, seeing on other platforms new sleek 160km V/locities operating services to Geelong.

Michael

Sorry to dampen your expectations here, but simply new rolling stock won't improve the service much at all.

The N set interiors were refurbished a few years ago, and are newer than many of the V/Locity interiors. The state of filth is due to inadequate cleaning, not the age of the rolling stock. It won't take very long for the brand new trains to be just as filthy (as indeed many of the V/Locity sets currently are) unless the basic maintenance is improved as well.

Whilst the V/Locities are capable of running at 160km/h, that is only possible on track that has been upgraded to allow for this, which the North East line currently has not been. If you want to be able to achieve 160km/h then the a lot of money will need to be spent on upgrading the line, which seems unlikely to happen.

N463
N463
Absolute rubbish. I know what I saw and the carriages which were used were either un-refurbished or refurbished to the style of the 1980's. They looked very dated. Sorry but V/locities provide a much better experience. Victoria has too much old crap running on the rails and new stock is needed. It is time for some real investment in that corridor that can deliver services to Albury in about 3 hours. Nearly 4 hours for a 299 km run is ridiculous.

Michael
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Sorry to dampen your expectations here, but simply new rolling stock won't improve the service much at all.

The N set interiors were refurbished a few years ago, and are newer than many of the V/Locity interiors. The state of filth is due to inadequate cleaning, not the age of the rolling stock. It won't take very long for the brand new trains to be just as filthy (as indeed many of the V/Locity sets currently are) unless the basic maintenance is improved as well.

Whilst the V/Locities are capable of running at 160km/h, that is only possible on track that has been upgraded to allow for this, which the North East line currently has not been. If you want to be able to achieve 160km/h then the a lot of money will need to be spent on upgrading the line, which seems unlikely to happen.

N463
N463
It would improve it.   Velocities have a much better acceleration than the N-sets with N loco's.  They are capable of travelling up to 130 on the NE, like the XPT does, 15km/h faster over the current trains.   Wouldn't change the service a huge amount, but it could shave around 10 minutes off the current timetable.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I know what I saw and the carriages which were used were either un-refurbished or refurbished to the style of the 1980's. They looked very dated. Sorry but V/locities provide a much better experience. Victoria has too much old crap running on the rails and new stock is needed. It is time for some real investment in that corridor that can deliver services to Albury in about 3 hours. Nearly 4 hours for a 299 km run is ridiculous.
Michael
mejhammers1

Three hours means an average of over 100KPH for the journey which entails several stops between Broadmeadows and Albury which is almost impossible under the existing operating conditions of all V/Line trains...including VLocity's, especially allowing for the slow track speeds between SCS and Albion.

Agreed the N cars are dated...the toilets and hand washing facility is atrocious, the carriages very rough riding and the First Class seats are less comfortable than the standard VLocity seat and the cleanliness of the N Cars both inside and out is appalling at best; however the investment to make an average of 100KPH...in reality an express timetable is a bit of a reach for V/Line at this time which would also mean the introduction of all stoppers from SCS to Albury to make up the difference in the timetable.

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For what its worth a DMU or a loco hauled train with a power to weight ratio of 11 BHP per ton (Vlocity, Sprinter is that) would take around 25 minutes off the current timetable (130kph speed), most of the time savings come from far better accelaration.

Due to the relatively short distance between most stops 160kph running would NOT save much more time.

woodford
  N463 Locomotive Driver

Absolute rubbish. I know what I saw and the carriages which were used were either un-refurbished or refurbished to the style of the 1980's. They looked very dated. Sorry but V/locities provide a much better experience. Victoria has too much old crap running on the rails and new stock is needed. It is time for some real investment in that corridor that can deliver services to Albury in about 3 hours. Nearly 4 hours for a 299 km run is ridiculous.

Michael
mejhammers1

I'm not saying that new rolling stock would be a bad thing, but rather that the maintenance, cleaning and infrastructure issues need to be fixed as well. It doesn't take very long for those shiny new trains to become filthy and run down (have a look inside some of the V/Locities that are still in purple and green, the seats and carpets are filthy and worn, in some cases the carpets are so worn that the woven base of the carpet is visible). This will soon happen to any new rolling stock as well unless V/Line improve their maintenance regime, and your new trains will have provided a temporary reprieve at best.

I agree that more investment is needed, but that needs to go beyond a new train that the pollies can have their photo-op with.

N463

P. S.
I believe that the refurbishment of the N sets involved replacing the seat covers, carpets and curtains (and repainting the exterior from the old red/white/blue into then new grey livery), and not much else.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I'm not saying that new rolling stock would be a bad thing, but rather that the maintenance, cleaning and infrastructure issues need to be fixed as well. It doesn't take very long for those shiny new trains to become filthy and run down (have a look inside some of the V/Locities that are still in purple and green, the seats and carpets are filthy and worn, in some cases the carpets are so worn that the woven base of the carpet is visible). This will soon happen to any new rolling stock as well unless V/Line improve their maintenance regime, and your new trains will have provided a temporary reprieve at best.
N463
You dont see Qantas running around with poorly cleaned and minor repairs not done do you?  It seems that this basic maintenance must be the easiest to cut in a cost constrained operation...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
We spend far too much time and effort here in Victoria arguing about saving 5 minutes here and there in impractical timetables and then whinging about not achieving those schedules.

Far more effort should go into reliable solid schedules that can be maintained day in and day out.

Far more effort should also go into the overall quality of the travel experience (comfort, cleanliness, fewer bogans etc) rather than the glitz and spin presented by Jacinta Allan on TV every second night. How many polished crash hats and new train proof jackets does the woman have? She must have more of these even than shoes.Crying or Very sad
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Does any cleaning take place at the Albury end? I known in Ararat there is a 10 minute turn around between some services which makes cleaning basically impossible. Ideally there would be a rubbish check and 'emergency' cleaning (spilt drinks etc.) done between runs and a more thorough clean each night. Does this happen?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Definitely overnight they have a cleaning crew go through.  Ive seen them working for about an hour or so on the train.  Not sure what happens for the day services though.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
(comfort, cleanliness, fewer bogans etc)
YM-Mundrabilla
Fewer bogans? What am I supposed to do, walk?!?!Laughing

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
(comfort, cleanliness, fewer bogans etc)
Fewer bogans? What am I supposed to do, walk?!?!Laughing

BG
BrentonGolding

We'll supply you with a 2 stroke gangers trolley...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Probably be more reliable and not subject to WOLOs (but don't bank on that). Smile
I am sure that Vline could still manage to bustitute your Ganger's trolley?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Definitely overnight they have a cleaning crew go through.  Ive seen them working for about an hour or so on the train.  Not sure what happens for the day services though.
james.au
The train staff does a "run through" the train and picks up any papers and such like lying around.

woodford
  damooops Junior Train Controller

Location: The Revenue Raising State
G'day all.
Has anyone yet seen any designs for these SG VLocities? Particularly the interior?
Cheers all
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The N set would go better if it was a G Set . You don't see the Yanks hauling regularly rostered pass trains around with a two stroke pinch bar . I'm sure if they tried they could hire twin cab units with something better than a Briggs and Stratton under the lid .
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

The N set would go better if it was a G Set . You don't see the Yanks hauling regularly rostered pass trains around with a two stroke pinch bar . I'm sure if they tried they could hire twin cab units with something better than a Briggs and Stratton under the lid .
BDA
I agree. Although you will need a power van as the G's don't have head end power (HEP). But it would be a useful stop gap. So 3300hp versus 2450 hp.

That would work out cheaper than trying to redesign a V Locity set. In reality V Line will need a whole new unit because the V Locity is not crash safe for a driver above 80kph. It is simply not worth boom gating minor farmers dirt tracks and country back roads that get minuscule road traffic. Plus this stuff takes forever to get done, eg; The Echuca line level crossing upgrade fiasco!

Better to use some modern fuel efficient locomotives that are crash safe and can easily pull a six car set at 130kph up and over the Kilmore Gap. In future they could buy in some Vossloh Type 68's, the 3700hp ones with HEP included. Plus some new carriages. These Vosslohs are rapidly building a reputation as a very powerful, efficient, and reliable unit across the UK.

Finally the N Class locos are reaching the end of their effective life, plus they are now underpowered by today's standards. Keep in mind they were rolled out 32 years ago to haul 3 - 4 car sets. Today on SG they pull 4 - 5 cars and a van, or 6 cars as a H set.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
well then, why not rid the world of A66 then since parts of it are over 60 years old now..
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I'm not saying that new rolling stock would be a bad thing, but rather that the maintenance, cleaning and infrastructure issues need to be fixed as well. It doesn't take very long for those shiny new trains to become filthy and run down (have a look inside some of the V/Locities that are still in purple and green, the seats and carpets are filthy and worn, in some cases the carpets are so worn that the woven base of the carpet is visible). This will soon happen to any new rolling stock as well unless V/Line improve their maintenance regime, and your new trains will have provided a temporary reprieve at best.
You dont see Qantas running around with poorly cleaned and minor repairs not done do you?  It seems that this basic maintenance must be the easiest to cut in a cost constrained operation...
james.au
There have been cases where airlines have managed to talk there way out of fixing known design flaws and then having an accident, probably the best known of these is United Airlines flight 811, but there have been a significant number of others.

It would also be safe to say that in the majority of enginneering disasters, the root cause would be cost cutting.

woodford
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Better to use some modern fuel efficient locomotives that are crash safe and can easily pull a six car set at 130kph up and over the Kilmore Gap. In future they could buy in some Vossloh Type 68's, the 3700hp ones with HEP included. Plus some new carriages. These Vosslohs are rapidly building a reputation as a very powerful, efficient, and reliable unit across the UK.
Duncs
UKLight is the product name, Class 68 is how they are entered on the old TOPS database in Britain.

I agree about the performance, they are doing very well. An AusLight variant specified for Australian conditions could have shorter gearing for better acceleration, and may need an altered body shell to incorporate higher capacity cooling - thankfully we have extra height allowed in our loading gauge.

The toughest question would be how to get it past the 'not invented here' problem.

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