Scaling a 42 class in O scale - decal size

 
  DJPeters Junior Train Controller

I have just finished my 42 class project. Well, a couple of thing still need to be done, such as the front airhorns but they will be done soon.
They are 7mm scale-ish as they used an Atlas F9 as the basis of the body.
Ted Freemans decals once again make them look better.







cheers
Bob




While I admire your courage in making them in that scale and most probably a lot of work as well I think your placement and size of the NSW crest plate on the front door is in error. Here is a photo from the front cover of of a Train Hobby book on them. The plate is smaller and higher up on the nose. Not nit picking at all just pointing this out on a otherwise excellent pair of locomotives.

http://catalog.trainhobby.com.au/images/nsw_locomotive_9.jpg

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  patsstuffnow Locomotive Driver

Not nit picking at you David, but a quick google of  NSW 42 class loco on the second line had several hundred images of NSW locos and the 42 class had several sizes, colours and placements over the years.

Which particular loco on which day do you think is wrong,
Not nit picking, just wondering.
  robertc Chief Train Controller

Hi David, I am sure that many things are wrong with my locos but they are home made, not the product of Asian craftsmen.
Although in this instance I had good help for the front of the models by American? craftsmen.
When running out in the real world such minor issues fade into the background if indeed it was incorrect.

O gauge need not be expensive. I know of at least one British Modeller who is building a good size layout using cardboard for not only the bodies but the chassis as well,  instead of the styrene I mainly use.
cheers
Bob
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Not nit picking at you David, but a quick google of  NSW 42 class loco on the second line had several hundred images of NSW locos and the 42 class had several sizes, colours and placements over the years.

Which particular loco on which day do you think is wrong,
Not nit picking, just wondering.
patsstuffnow


Perhaps not.  The plates are all the same size, irrespective of the POTS (power other than steam) unit to which they were fitted.  From 11/1955 to 4/1983 on every 42 they were fitted in the same place.  4204, following its circa 2010 body overhaul and repaint, had its one fitted almost a full plate higher, centred on the three yellow stripes.  4204 is the only 42 Class Unit to have that plate fitted in a different location.
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Hi David, I am sure that many things are wrong with my locos but they are home made, not the product of Asian craftsmen.
Although in this instance I had good help for the front of the models by American? craftsmen.
When running out in the real world such minor issues fade into the background if indeed it was incorrect.

O gauge need not be expensive. I know of at least one British Modeller who is building a good size layout using cardboard for not only the bodies but the chassis as well,  instead of the styrene I mainly use.
cheers
Bob
robertc

Bob, you've done a very good job with your builds.  I love 'em and wish I could do half as well as you have.  Did you use four bodies to get the length?

That British Modeller might run into trouble in the future with cardboard, your preferred medium of styrene is, i think, going to stand the test of time much better.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Using a 1:48 body to produce a 1:43.5 model has given you a few problems.
A 42 class is as tall as the 72'6" vehicles in the second illustration.

One thing that shows up to me is the width of the cab front window centre pillar.
This is clearly the pillar from a USA locomotive.
Clyde used the same steel pressings as EMD, but to reduce the width to 9'9" from 10' cut 1-1/2" from each side in the centre.

Thus the pillar between the cab front windows on a 42 (or S, GM CLP, CLF or B) was 3" narrower than an F-7 or E-9.

Since your model starts off too narrow, it is probably not worth the trouble narrowing the pillar, since the windows would look too wide.

The Atlas F-9 model was originally made by Roco in Austria, so I guess you should thank the Austrians.
I have a couple from the 1970s in Santa Fe colours.

Peter
  robertc Chief Train Controller

What ever you name is ?, the locos are each made from one body shell.They have the missing 11' added to the rear in styrene.
Mechanisms are scratchbuilt too using Slaters wheels.
If you find my Australian Outdoors thread on RMweb 7mm folder you can find more info there.

Yes, I thought the shells might have come from Europe but my memory is not what it was, hence the question mark.

I see the nit picking model buyers are out in force as usual, I won't waste any more of my time.
cheers
Bob
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
What ever you name is ?, the locos are each made from one body shell.They have the missing 11' added to the rear in styrene.
Mechanisms are scratchbuilt too using Slaters wheels.
If you find my Australian Outdoors thread on RMweb 7mm folder you can find more info there.

Yes, I thought the shells might have come from Europe but my memory is not what it was, hence the question mark.

I see the nit picking model buyers are out in force as usual, I won't waste any more of my time.
cheers
Bob
robertc
You are not wasting my time at all, I love the work you do. At the moment few people who would also enjoy your models have not yet  logged on and found your thread. So keep going mate !

Look for the silent majority who will look, read and appriciate your work. And the ones who have spoken up have also admired what you have been able to achieve given what you started with - and show how hard it can be to make a model.

So stay a bit more and continue to share your thoughts and projects.


Respectfully,
David Head
  TedFreeman Locomotive Driver

Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
What ever you name is ?, the locos are each made from one body shell.They have the missing 11' added to the rear in styrene.
Mechanisms are scratchbuilt too using Slaters wheels.
If you find my Australian Outdoors thread on RMweb 7mm folder you can find more info there.

Yes, I thought the shells might have come from Europe but my memory is not what it was, hence the question mark.

I see the nit picking model buyers are out in force as usual, I won't waste any more of my time.
cheers
Bob
robertc
Bob,

Don't dare run away, I enjoy making the decals for your projects and the final results even make my decals look good, as far as size of the Crests go, my view on it is that there was quite a variation amongst locos, considering there were only six of them and they all wore different dresses at various times pretty well anything goes and as you stated, they are representative of the class, not an accurate model (in all honesty I never believe in such a thing as an 'accurate' model (that should bring some response from the naysayers, then I can really have fun).

I worked on the 42 class in my days on the road and they were one of my favourites, lurching through an 'S' bend at Ashfield was always an exciting part of any trip on one.

Looking at your models put me back in the seat!

Ted (Teditor) Freeman
  TedFreeman Locomotive Driver

Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
What I have seen of the photos and what I remember of my time on the job, very little 'standard practice' occurred on the NSWGR's.

Ted (Teditor Freeman
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Bob....love your work.....

It never ceases to amaze me why others have to be so picky and seem to take great pleasure in finding fault with the work of others, whether there be a fault there or not.

I appreciate the things that others do....I used to build DJH steam loco kits for other modelers who didn't feel they could do as good a job as I could do, or maybe they just didn't have time. I always told them before I started... "If you don't like the end result, I will buy the model back off you for the price of the kit so you can buy another kit and do it better yourself". I never had to buy one model back off anybody. I'm not a great builder and I reckon I could find minor faults in every model I ever built.

These days, at 63, my eyes dictate that I'm now a "plonker"....my days of building intricate kits is well behind me.

Keep up the great work and keep the pics coming please Bob.

Cheers,

Bill Roach
  a6et Minister for Railways

What I have seen of the photos and what I remember of my time on the job, very little 'standard practice' occurred on the NSWGR's.

Ted (Teditor Freeman
TedFreeman
Ted

IIRC, there was a point in time where the powers above started to remove all the Chrome/SS state emblems from the diesel fleet, and replaced them with the large transfers that adorned the main liners fleet.  44cl and IIRC 45's received oval types while the 42cl received large rounded ones on the nose, as identified by these models.
  M636C Minister for Railways

What I have seen of the photos and what I remember of my time on the job, very little 'standard practice' occurred on the NSWGR's.

Ted (Teditor Freeman
Ted

IIRC, there was a point in time where the powers above started to remove all the Chrome/SS state emblems from the diesel fleet, and replaced them with the large transfers that adorned the main liners fleet.  44cl and IIRC 45's received oval types while the 42cl received large rounded ones on the nose, as identified by these models.
a6et
The change in emblem occurred in the mid 1970s when some pedantic person noticed that the stainless steel oval included the words "Department of Railways NSW" while the then official title was "Public Transport Commission".

The first of these I saw was on the nose of a 45 class at Enfield, and I photographed it, noting the words PTC of NSW.

Because the oval decal was maybe twice the size of the stainless oval, it couldn't be fitted on 48 class which had a raised mounting on the angled nose but it was easy to put on a 45.

However, I have never seen one of these decals on the nose of a 42 class, nor a 43. All the photos I've seen suggest that the 42 class retained the smaller stainless badge on the nose, although some got the later oval with the L7 double arrows on the side, and some might have had the oval with the crest on the side. Some cab units had the crest without the oval on the side and retained the stainless oval on the nose.

So while the oval with crest is a correct NSW emblem, it isn't correct for any 42 class to my knowledge.

Peter
  DJPeters Junior Train Controller

I have a collection of books about NSW diesels and no where in any of them can I find a photo or even a reference to large oval logos like them fitted to 42 class which is why I stated what I did. I would have thought if one or two had been fitted some photos would have surfaced by now of them. The books by the way are the  3 diesel books by  M. Morahan and published by Eveleigh Press and a few other books as well from the same publisher and others but not one photo in any of them did I find, and no mention either of them. I would have thought that if it had been done that it would get a mention and a photo as a one off or similar type of thing.

The models them selves overall though are a tribute to the builder and the paint job looks excellent as well it was just the large logos on the front that did not look right to me. Like I said I admire the work that went into them, I am not knocking that at all. Also these days I see there is a trend that when someone tends to actually find a genuine fault or what appears to be a fault in something you get howled down by all and sundry even if it is on a RTR model.

I like models even near enough models to be well near enough to the prototype to pass as being almost prototype even the paint job on them but to me going to all that trouble and then fluffing the placement and size of the plates seems a waste to me. It would be akin to a SAR modeller putting a shrike on the front of 900 kitbashed model that was twice the size of the one on the prototype it just would not look right!

But as long as the builder is happy with them that is all that counts in the end. I only pointed it in case the builder did not know, not to nit pick the models though.
  Phantom47 Locomotive Fireman

Location: In The Shire
I have a collection of books about NSW diesels and no where in any of them can I find a photo or even a reference to large oval logos like them fitted to 42 class which is why I stated what I did. I would have thought if one or two had been fitted some photos would have surfaced by now of them. The books by the way are the  3 diesel books by  M. Morahan and published by Eveleigh Press and a few other books as well from the same publisher and others but not one photo in any of them did I find, and no mention either of them. I would have thought that if it had been done that it would get a mention and a photo as a one off or similar type of thing.

The models them selves overall though are a tribute to the builder and the paint job looks excellent as well it was just the large logos on the front that did not look right to me. Like I said I admire the work that went into them, I am not knocking that at all. Also these days I see there is a trend that when someone tends to actually find a genuine fault or what appears to be a fault in something you get howled down by all and sundry even if it is on a RTR model.

I like models even near enough models to be well near enough to the prototype to pass as being almost prototype even the paint job on them but to me going to all that trouble and then fluffing the placement and size of the plates seems a waste to me. It would be akin to a SAR modeller putting a shrike on the front of 900 kitbashed model that was twice the size of the one on the prototype it just would not look right!

But as long as the builder is happy with them that is all that counts in the end. I only pointed it in case the builder did not know, not to nit pick the models though.
DJPeters
Just a note: Eveleigh Press did not publish any of Mick Morahan's books. They were all published by the NSW RTM, probably when he was editor of Roundhouse.

Phantom
  BOLIVIA Station Master

Hey Bob

How thick are those decals anyway.The real thing used 2.0 mm stainless ,bet you didn't know that .
I'm not nit picking ,but it serves you right for showing off .
You capitalist swine 1 x 42 loco would be enough for any one else back at the commune .Not you though,
You deserve all you get .
I bet your not game enough to put a picture of the air horns on,when you make them !
Are you making them out of cardboard or carving them out of soap ?

Name withheld for an anonymous reason.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thread locked for some investigation. Now unlocked. Robert is a mate of he above poster so may reply back, so please do not read into it anything more - ignore, move on !
  TedFreeman Locomotive Driver

Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Hey Bob

How thick are those decals anyway.The real thing used 2.0 mm stainless ,bet you didn't know that .
I'm not nit picking ,but it serves you right for showing off .
You capitalist swine 1 x 42 loco would be enough for any one else back at the commune .Not you though,
You deserve all you get .
I bet your not game enough to put a picture of the air horns on,when you make them !
Are you making them out of cardboard or carving them out of soap ?

Name withheld for an anonymous reason.
BOLIVIA
Fancy hiding behind the name Bolivia, as the maker of the decals, I can assure you they are the correct 2mm scale thickness, this is accomplished by using a special 1mm scale decal paper and a special clear coat, temperature and environment controlled to the remaining scale 1mm, the lettering on said decals is a correct scale .010mm.

Anonymously Teditor (cause no one will know who that is).
  robertc Chief Train Controller

Soap, soap Rohan!!
I told you I was not just borrowing that cake from you just for washing myself.

Sorry Ted, he wasn't having a shot a you , just a couple of others here.

cheers
Bob
  M636C Minister for Railways

Hey Bob

How thick are those decals anyway.The real thing used 2.0 mm stainless ,bet you didn't know that .
as the maker of the decals, I can assure you they are the correct 2mm scale thickness, this is accomplished by using a special 1mm scale decal paper and a special clear coat, temperature and environment controlled to the remaining scale 1mm, the lettering on said decals is a correct scale .010mm.

Anonymously Teditor (cause no one will know who that is).
TedFreeman
Ted,

The decals appear to be models of decals and not models of stainless steel plates.

Otherwise, aren't they the wrong size?

Since both existed, this isn't a problem except that there are no photos of 42 class with nose decals, only stainless steel plates.

Since you know the thickness so accurately, what is the width of the oval in real life of both the white decal and the stainless plate?

Peter
  TedFreeman Locomotive Driver

Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Ted,

The decals appear to be models of decals and not models of stainless steel plates.

Otherwise, aren't they the wrong size?

Since both existed, this isn't a problem except that there are no photos of 42 class with nose decals, only stainless steel plates.

Since you know the thickness so accurately, what is the width of the oval in real life of both the white decal and the stainless plate?

Peter
M636C
Peter,

I spent 9 years on the NSWGR's (Fireman/acting driver), and in all honesty that means nothing as regarding my knowledge, it seems some people have trouble differentiating between fact and fiction, Bobs models are superb, the decals would have been my fault if they were the incorrect size due to multiple actual scales in 'O' Gauge (Scale), I don't know how you worked out who I was, just shows I'm not very good at hiding, but I am very good at enjoying the hobby, the banter and the people.

Ted (Teditor) Freeman
  BOLIVIA Station Master

Hey Bob

How thick are those decals anyway.The real thing used 2.0 mm stainless ,bet you didn't know that .
as the maker of the decals, I can assure you they are the correct 2mm scale thickness, this is accomplished by using a special 1mm scale decal paper and a special clear coat, temperature and environment controlled to the remaining scale 1mm, the lettering on said decals is a correct scale .010mm.

Anonymously Teditor (cause no one will know who that is).
Ted,

The decals appear to be models of decals and not models of stainless steel plates.

Otherwise, aren't they the wrong size?

Since both existed, this isn't a problem except that there are no photos of 42 class with nose decals, only stainless steel plates.

Since you know the thickness so accurately, what is the width of the oval in real life of both the white decal and the stainless plate?

Peter
M636C
Hi Peter
I understand your question was directed at Ted but I may be able to help.
Cant help you with the dimensions of the white decal.
But I did just measured a stainless steel plate on your behalf, the dimensions are
Width 384.5 mm
height  270   mm
Both these measurements are are taken with a metal surface temperature of 25deg C
measured with a infrared red temperature measurement instrument.
So depending on the prevailing weather conditions acting upon  the plate attached to a locomotive at the time. The surface temp could vary from -18 C to + 65 C if operating in NSW only.
You will have to do the calculations yourself ,using the coefficient of expansion for stainless steel of .0000173 (we wont get into what grade of Stainless was used on the plate at this stage ) We will just use this coefficient as a base number.
Of coarse the cab width would also be changing at the same time ,so I have taken the liberty of supplying the coefficient of steel at .000013 to help with any calculations necessary.
Thanks
Rohan
  DJPeters Junior Train Controller

I have a collection of books about NSW diesels and no where in any of them can I find a photo or even a reference to large oval logos like them fitted to 42 class which is why I stated what I did. I would have thought if one or two had been fitted some photos would have surfaced by now of them. The books by the way are the  3 diesel books by  M. Morahan and published by Eveleigh Press and a few other books as well from the same publisher and others but not one photo in any of them did I find, and no mention either of them. I would have thought that if it had been done that it would get a mention and a photo as a one off or similar type of thing.

The models them selves overall though are a tribute to the builder and the paint job looks excellent as well it was just the large logos on the front that did not look right to me. Like I said I admire the work that went into them, I am not knocking that at all. Also these days I see there is a trend that when someone tends to actually find a genuine fault or what appears to be a fault in something you get howled down by all and sundry even if it is on a RTR model.

I like models even near enough models to be well near enough to the prototype to pass as being almost prototype even the paint job on them but to me going to all that trouble and then fluffing the placement and size of the plates seems a waste to me. It would be akin to a SAR modeller putting a shrike on the front of 900 kitbashed model that was twice the size of the one on the prototype it just would not look right!

But as long as the builder is happy with them that is all that counts in the end. I only pointed it in case the builder did not know, not to nit pick the models though.
Just a note: Eveleigh Press did not publish any of Mick Morahan's books. They were all published by the NSW RTM, probably when he was editor of Roundhouse.

Phantom
Phantom47
Well who ever published the books I checked them and the photos with in them plus a few other on NSW locos etc. So at least I did do some checking rather than just mouthing off and doing none at all. I have done a few 42 classes from Lima models over the years so I use or have used these books as a bible so to speak. Was hard to see a NSWGR loco here in South Australia until recent years. So for research I depended on these books and any other books I have that have NSWGR type loco's in them, I have a pretty good Australia wide library here although it is lacking in a few states! NSW, VIC and SA being my main interests. The ones I do not have that much on are WA, Qld and Tasmania.
  BOLIVIA Station Master

Hi DJ
I'm sure you have lots of books .this was never in question.
What I didn't know was that you have actually done some modelling ,and on a 42 class.
This is fantastic news.
The best way to resolve this ,would be for you to post some pictures of these models you have done showing the standard of modelling that we are all wanting to aspire too.based on your talents.
And the correct placement , and or size required of the shall we call it the ( THE DUCK EGG )
I hope you haven't set the bar that high ,we all walk under it.
I will look forward to seeing these pictures upon my return from my work commitments today.

All the best DJ
Rohan
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thread locked.

Original topic in it's own thread, it is not to be used for this topic as edited.

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