Sydney Metro train is on the rails!

 
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
Testing has begun on the first of 22 Sydney Metro trains. I was thinking of going and seeing it. Would anyone know when/where they would likely run it and if the public would be able to see?

Thanks

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  Ben_Daui Deputy Commissioner

When I was at Rouse Hill Town Centre in January the line was not complete, so most likely it will be yard testing only as none of the stations are completed aswell as the catenary not up yet on the line. Judging by the time line of the ECRL closing at the later part of this year (TBA), the stations will most likely be completed once the ECRL conversion is ready for the Metro.
  viaprojects Train Controller

Testing has begun on the first of 22 Sydney Metro trains. I was thinking of going and seeing it. Would anyone know when/where they would likely run it and if the public would be able to see?

Thanks
TrainLover222


only brake testing was done and only limited to the yard area... a small section of track outside of the yard is done to which you may be able to see the first unit from a road bridge ( see google maps ).... but any real photo pic will be on the news when the services and track are completed ... ie +12 month time... or when the full line is open...
  M636C Minister for Railways

I visited the depot area between Christmas and New Year.

We had a chat with a contractor employee who indicated that tests had been run with the first set up to the end of the depot contract area (just short of Cudgegong Road station). It appeared that the track and overhead were complete up to the curved bridge at Rouse Hill shopping centre, presumably on a separate contract from the depot..

So it is possible that tests could be carried out up to the end of that contract point assuming power was connected to the overhead.

We were told that there was a shunting locomotive at the depot, as well as the initial set.

Presumably any tests at this stage would be under manual control.

The final fencing around the depot has been erected, making photography almost impossible.
It would be very difficult to photograph further up the line, depending upon where the fences are relative to the line.

It is an interesting place to visit but don't expect to come away with any usable photographs...

Peter
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I visited the depot area between Christmas and New Year.

We had a chat with a contractor employee who indicated that tests had been run with the first set up to the end of the depot contract area (just short of Cudgegong Road station). It appeared that the track and overhead were complete up to the curved bridge at Rouse Hill shopping centre, presumably on a separate contract from the depot..

So it is possible that tests could be carried out up to the end of that contract point assuming power was connected to the overhead.

We were told that there was a shunting locomotive at the depot, as well as the initial set.

Presumably any tests at this stage would be under manual control.

The final fencing around the depot has been erected, making photography almost impossible.
It would be very difficult to photograph further up the line, depending upon where the fences are relative to the line.

It is an interesting place to visit but don't expect to come away with any usable photographs...

Peter
M636C
informative,

Suggestion, drone photos!
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I must say that a train without a driver's cab seems strange in a similar way to a person without a head.
  Matthew Train Controller

I must say that a train without a driver's cab seems strange in a similar way to a person without a head.
Myrtone
You need to get out more Smile

The Sydney train's layout is near identical to a Singapore Circle line Metropolis C830 train set. I had a deja-vu moment when I first walked into the mock-up car they have been exhibiting.

The (emergency) drivers console is on the other side from that on the Singapore train, but after that, it just looks like older models of the series built for unattended ATO.  Of course, to make the train look unique, it has a quite different fibreglass moulding on the ends. You could probably unbolt that and swap it for another different shaped one and the train wouldn't be out of place on one of the two Singapore lines that run Alstom rollingstock.

Back in 2016, the Singapore Circle line had a series of massive disruptions when some sort of radio interference was causing trains sets to drop out of ATO and do emergency stops. The train operator struggled to find the cause as there wasn't a noticeable pattern. There were multiple shutdowns, in peak travel times.

Eventually, an external group who were trying novel ways of visualising the data found that a particular train was always near each incident. The train itself never failed, but it left a 'trail' of disruption behind it. When the operator pulled the set from service the signalling problems stopped. The train set was eventually found to have a faulty radio. It was generating interference that affected other radios but not it's own.

Not sure if Sydney is using the same CBTC system or not.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Nothing new about Driverless trains. Most wont even know unless they ride in the front carriage and realise that there is no cab.

Taiwan Metro is all driverless, though they do have cabs, which contain an 'attendant'. In the 20 years or so that they have been running they have not had any problems related to the Driverless operation.

Australian passengers need to get over this worry about technology and the luxury of having a seat and a single train from origin to destination.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Australian passengers need to get over this worry about technology and the luxury of having a seat and a single train from origin to destination.
mikesyd
I'll get over it when they absolutely guarantee the connections. My own experience of Sydney trains was that they often did not connect when they should have, adding an extra hour to my journey time.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australian passengers need to get over this worry about technology and the luxury of having a seat and a single train from origin to destination.
I'll get over it when they absolutely guarantee the connections. My own experience of Sydney trains was that they often did not connect when they should have, adding an extra hour to my journey time.
apw5910
Mikesyd is right, the population needs to get over it. I watch Automated trains run here in Dubai moving 600,000 people per day and will grow with the various extensions under way.

As for connections, what are you worried about, with frequencies of 6-12min planned on start up and likely to decrease with time and ridership you'll loose more time having a pee than waiting for the Metro.

Having said that, the issues at both termini is one the govt really needs to resolve and quickly to truely make it part of the Sydney Rail Network. Stopping barely 2km from the Richmond Line and the cluster at Bankstown (should have connected with Liverpool or Regents Park) is destroying the connectivity of the Metro in those locations. Connection at Richmond may have seen significant numbers change there for a ride into the city via Hornsby plus the users going to the NW line corridor to Chatswood, now they more than likely drive,
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Frequencies will be faster then 6 minutes in peak hour. 4 minutes initially.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Australian passengers need to get over this worry about technology and the luxury of having a seat and a single train from origin to destination.
I'll get over it when they absolutely guarantee the connections. My own experience of Sydney trains was that they often did not connect when they should have, adding an extra hour to my journey time.
apw5910
There seems to be some misapprehension that because a Sydney train arrives at a junction station close to the time of a train heading for another destination it is a connecting service. Read my lips, no Sydney trains timetables are designed to actually connect with another service. This perceived failure to connect due to another late running service is one of the most common complaints received through the complaints Hotline. 'My Katoomba train was running 2 minutes late and due to that I missed my connection from Strathfield to Hornsby'. Really.

Sorry, the only way of guaranteeing a connection is to catch an earlier train.

The best complaint I saw was from a lady who lived near Wollongong and worked at North Strathfield and was always complaining of missed connections. I mean, live closer to work, or catch an earlier train. Even the best commuter service cannot guarantee a seamless connection under those circumstances. Her journey would have to be one of the worse ones to choose on our network.

If you have to add another hour to ensure you arrive at work on time that is the price you pay for living in more affordable housing. Live close to the CBD and you pay. I am not saying the situation is good but that is the reality of Sydney today.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australian passengers need to get over this worry about technology and the luxury of having a seat and a single train from origin to destination.
I'll get over it when they absolutely guarantee the connections. My own experience of Sydney trains was that they often did not connect when they should have, adding an extra hour to my journey time.
There seems to be some misapprehension that because a Sydney train arrives at a junction station close to the time of a train heading for another destination it is a connecting service. Read my lips, no Sydney trains timetables are designed to actually connect with another service. This perceived failure to connect due to another late running service is one of the most common complaints received through the complaints Hotline. 'My Katoomba train was running 2 minutes late and due to that I missed my connection from Strathfield to Hornsby'. Really.

Sorry, the only way of guaranteeing a connection is to catch an earlier train.

The best complaint I saw was from a lady who lived near Wollongong and worked at North Strathfield and was always complaining of missed connections. I mean, live closer to work, or catch an earlier train. Even the best commuter service cannot guarantee a seamless connection under those circumstances. Her journey would have to be one of the worse ones to choose on our network.

If you have to add another hour to ensure you arrive at work on time that is the price you pay for living in more affordable housing. Live close to the CBD and you pay. I am not saying the situation is good but that is the reality of Sydney today.
nswtrains
Agree and the Metro helps resolve this by moving to a "walk up and go" timetable. Other lines are progressively increasing frequencies through more standard stopping patterns, not same as Metro but a vast improvement over 20-30 years ago.

In the case of Brisbane which has the hub and spoke network layout. When I was using it frequently I think it was standard to wait 28-29min for the next train, as if they designed to let you watch the other train leaving on arrival to Roma St. Fortunately frequency of the inner sections at least has improved significantly since then.
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
There seems to be some misapprehension that because a Sydney train arrives at a junction station close to the time of a train heading for another destination it is a connecting service. Read my lips, no Sydney trains timetables are designed to actually connect with another service. This perceived failure to connect due to another late running service is one of the most common complaints received through the complaints Hotline. 'My Katoomba train was running 2 minutes late and due to that I missed my connection from Strathfield to Hornsby'. Really.

Sorry, the only way of guaranteeing a connection is to catch an earlier train.

The best complaint I saw was from a lady who lived near Wollongong and worked at North Strathfield and was always complaining of missed connections. I mean, live closer to work, or catch an earlier train. Even the best commuter service cannot guarantee a seamless connection under those circumstances. Her journey would have to be one of the worse ones to choose on our network.

If you have to add another hour to ensure you arrive at work on time that is the price you pay for living in more affordable housing. Live close to the CBD and you pay. I am not saying the situation is good but that is the reality of Sydney today.
Agree and the Metro helps resolve this by moving to a "walk up and go" timetable. Other lines are progressively increasing frequencies through more standard stopping patterns, not same as Metro but a vast improvement over 20-30 years ago.

In the case of Brisbane which has the hub and spoke network layout. When I was using it frequently I think it was standard to wait 28-29min for the next train, as if they designed to let you watch the other train leaving on arrival to Roma St. Fortunately frequency of the inner sections at least has improved significantly since then.
RTT_Rules
That's true. I don't think there's anything deeply wrong with the Sydney Trains network (I see it is a world-class system) and it has seen greatly improved frequencies over the decades. Sure, it has its limitations, but so does any other large and complex train system.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/drivers-now-deployed-on-singapores-driverless-mrt-to-improve-reliability?xtor=CS3-17
DalyWaters
Couldn't read much without signing in, but this thread in a forum seems to indicate that its not a driver, rather its a Train Attendant who is on the train which are increasingly more crowded to resolve what ever issue comes along.

[url=https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/[smart-nation]-drivers-now-deployed-singapores-driverless-mrt-trains-improve-reliability-5786170-2.html]https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/%5Bsmart-nation%5D-drivers-now-deployed-singapores-driverless-mrt-trains-improve-reliability-5786170-2.html[/url]

Dubai uses a similar approach, the Train Attendant main focus is to ensure no men in women's section and First Class section has only First Class ticket holders. The Attendant rarely stands at the end of the train, however I have seem them open the driver control panel through a section that had an issue, but they did not actually control the train, rather monitoring. Maybe just in case.

I'll place a bet that in Singapore NE line like Dubai, the drivers control panel remains locked up and only used in emergencies and passengers can enjoy the view 99.99% of the time. There will be no drivers cab or even seat.



Meanwhile on the older part of the Singapore MRT network.

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2119986/singapore-train-hits-stationary-one-25-injured
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The problem with the Sydney network is that it never got completed and so the network is extremely complex. Instead of building more lines our politicians took the cheap route and went with double deckers which worked for a time but now there is no more room for growth because of it.
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
The problem with the Sydney network is that it never got completed and so the network is extremely complex. Instead of building more lines our politicians took the cheap route and went with double deckers which worked for a time but now there is no more room for growth because of it.
simstrain
I disagree. Those double-decker trains are one of the most important things that makes Sydney's network so great. It allows way more people to be carried without taking out seats and leaving most people standing. Sydney's network, most of which is suburban, is perfect for double-deckers. Not only are they unsurpassed in comfort, they are also quite iconic. Remember that Melbourne wanted bilevel trains but couldn't follow through due to the massive upgrades that would be needed to accomodate them on that system. Make no mistake that they're here to stay.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-11/barry-ofarrell-sydney-trains-claim-doubtful/5371446
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
4 cars with roughly the equivalent of the capacity of 8 cars, what you loose in the mass of the structure between a single and a double decker I think is more than compensated by less drag caused by 8 cars, motored or not.
I have never seen any figures of the costs involved between building a single deck and a double deck but I would be very surprised if the double deck cost much more than a single deck.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The problem with the Sydney network is that it never got completed and so the network is extremely complex. Instead of building more lines our politicians took the cheap route and went with double deckers which worked for a time but now there is no more room for growth because of it.
I disagree. Those double-decker trains are one of the most important things that makes Sydney's network so great. It allows way more people to be carried without taking out seats and leaving most people standing. Sydney's network, most of which is suburban, is perfect for double-deckers. Not only are they unsurpassed in comfort, they are also quite iconic. Remember that Melbourne wanted bilevel trains but couldn't follow through due to the massive upgrades that would be needed to accomodate them on that system. Make no mistake that they're here to stay.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-11/barry-ofarrell-sydney-trains-claim-doubtful/5371446
TrainLover222

Have you been on a Sydney train in peak hour lately. I can tell you that for many people it is not that comfortable when they have to stand for 30-40 minutes. The sydney system is way beyond capacity with 130%+ loads on every line in peak hour outside of the ESR. The system is not as comfortable as you say it is and the city circle stations and double deckers are no longer able to handle the significant volumes of people anymore.

The metro will provide more then enough trains and seats by being able to run at up to 36 trains an hour in one direction. With it only having one destination there won't be issues like people waiting on tiny platforms in the CBD for a train to their destination.

Nobody is saying the existing system or the DD's are going anywhere. The new metros however provide a modern 100% DDA compliant system for a modern civilisation.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

4 cars with roughly the equivalent of the capacity of 8 cars, what you loose in the mass of the structure between a single and a double decker I think is more than compensated by less drag caused by 8 cars, motored or not.
I have never seen any figures of the costs involved between building a single deck and a double deck but I would be very surprised if the double deck cost much more than a single deck.
gordon_s1942
DD's do cost a fair bit more per unit than single decks.  They require extra strength and space to put various stuff, like resistors, AC units, compressors is at a premium.   But its nowhere close to double or anything like that.
  Shadowrunner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Cartmanland
If I may chime in about the driverless topic, the problem with driverless trains is that they're also brainless. I know it's not a substitute for actual study in the matter, but I have watched several documentaries about the Tokyo metro and done a fair bit of reading into it, as much as is made public, anyway. They all focus down to the same point, however.

The biggest reason they're not driverless, is because there isn't a computer that can handle the frequency and timing of the services, safely. If something falls over, everything falls over, and the system just can't handle that. There needs to be "a human element" (whatever that means) involved with the workings of the system, because if something does happen, it's more likely that human involvement can better isolate whatever the problem is, and keep it as localized as possible.

If some idiot throws a towel on the overhead, a computer's probably not gonna see it until the pantograph melts.

That's just my 2c.
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
If I may chime in about the driverless topic, the problem with driverless trains is that they're also brainless. I know it's not a substitute for actual study in the matter, but I have watched several documentaries about the Tokyo metro and done a fair bit of reading into it, as much as is made public, anyway. They all focus down to the same point, however.

The biggest reason they're not driverless, is because there isn't a computer that can handle the frequency and timing of the services, safely. If something falls over, everything falls over, and the system just can't handle that. There needs to be "a human element" (whatever that means) involved with the workings of the system, because if something does happen, it's more likely that human involvement can better isolate whatever the problem is, and keep it as localized as possible.

If some idiot throws a towel on the overhead, a computer's probably not gonna see it until the pantograph melts.

That's just my 2c.
Shadowrunner
No argument there
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
That's true. I don't think there's anything deeply wrong with the Sydney Trains network (I see it is a world-class system) and it has seen greatly improved frequencies over the decades. Sure, it has its limitations, but so does any other large and complex train system.
TrainLover222
And look at metros that pre-date all underground extensions of the Sydney suburban, and they have their limitations too.

Those double-decker trains are one of the most important things that makes Sydney's network so great. It allows way more people to be carried without taking out seats and leaving most people standing. Sydney's network, most of which is suburban, is perfect for double-deckers. Not only are they unsurpassed in comfort, they are also quite iconic. Remember that Melbourne wanted bilevel trains but couldn't follow through due to the massive upgrades that would be needed to accomodate them on that system. Make no mistake that they're here to stay.
TrainLover222
Note that the Sydney suburban pioneered double decker multiple units, and they are spreading to the busiest mainline style heavy rail networks that can accommodate them without (considerable) civil engineering work.
A classic example is the Paris R.E.R, which has station spacing similar to the Sydney suburban and is progressively adding more double deckers. And it isn't just Paris, there are numerous others, too many for me to be bothered to list any.

Double deckers trains do carry more people per service with typical suburban station spacings or wider.

Has anyone here been on a single deck metro train during the busiest hours of the day in that location? They have the same problem that is said to be a problem on the Sydney suburban, if not worse. Hong Kong's MTR even enforces a small luggage size limit where a music student even got reprimanded just for carrying his cello onto the train.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If I may chime in about the driverless topic, the problem with driverless trains is that they're also brainless. I know it's not a substitute for actual study in the matter, but I have watched several documentaries about the Tokyo metro and done a fair bit of reading into it, as much as is made public, anyway. They all focus down to the same point, however.

The biggest reason they're not driverless, is because there isn't a computer that can handle the frequency and timing of the services, safely. If something falls over, everything falls over, and the system just can't handle that. There needs to be "a human element" (whatever that means) involved with the workings of the system, because if something does happen, it's more likely that human involvement can better isolate whatever the problem is, and keep it as localized as possible.

If some idiot throws a towel on the overhead, a computer's probably not gonna see it until the pantograph melts.

That's just my 2c.
Shadowrunner
If some idiot throws a towel over the overhead on any line in Australia where trains speeds exceed 40-50km/h there is a high degree of chance the train will hit it as the driver cannot see it or stop in time if they do, especially at night. Certainly in tunnels were most automated trains exist the drivers are basically driving blind and usually faster than their line of sight stopping distance including coming into stations.

Overall the above sounds like what might happen if we build automated railways, the reality is they exist today and have done for 20 + years with more coming all the time. Their safety and on-time performance standards exceed that of manual systems and they provide lower operating costs for the operators which is why they are built.

While a number of networks still run auto trains with on board staff, they are usually not a driver as such or actually driving the train and there for security, safety, revenue protection, asset protection and other reasons related to having a train with 1000 people on it cruising through tunnels or on viaducts. ie What if scenarios? However these people are usually trained to operate the train in manual mode for short distances if required.

With reference to Toyko, remember its not as culturally acceptable to automate human roles in Japan as they do in Australia (ie make people redundant), both in and outside railways. Additionally most of the Metro is pre-existing to when automation was introduced and its complex to automate an existing line and yes the severe over crowding doesn't help with automation. Japan has also been able to demonstrate it can run railways with ontime performance leading the rest of the world, even on HSR and high frequency lines, so the overall benefit to automate is lower.

Mytone will now harp on about the Paris RER and be an expert of a system he has never used and try and compare to Sydney's new Metro line, but the two are completely different in so many ways its not even funny and these have all been discussed to excess previously.

The key points for train automation are
- Frequency usually in excess of manual driven trains, ie 90sec
- Elimination of timetables with train frequencies able to respond to user demand almost as they move through the gate.
- Elimination of a job that a computer has been well proven to be capable of and enable this human to be redeployed to more value adding Service related roles, ie passenger security and revenue/asset protection
- Reduction in disruption by industrial disputes
- Generally lower operating costs and simply train design

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