... but then we're pushing coal off-shore at record levels to be burnt ON THE SAME PLANET so none of it makes a lick of sense;

Just for a moment, I will defend coal.

I have heard, and I will not/cannot link, that new coal fired generation in places like India will benefit the environment because it is better than burning local heaps of dung.

Having said that and old article that I once read in RenewEconomy suggested that this year something like 800MW of coal fired generation will be coming on line there (obviously from long winded projects) but this year, renewables will outstrip that figure handsomely.

it is apparent now why we find each other to be not on the same page.

I keep banging on about the proven unreliability of generation hardware which is prone to frequent breakages, and you keep banging on about blackouts which are caused by downstream issues that have nothing to do with the source of supply.

No hard feelings.

Well I've been trying for sometime now to explain the error in your thinking but you won't pay attention.

Who said I was pointing to down stream issues? (again your error)

Well, you did, when you said "Large scale blackouts typically linked to political, industrial (union) and weather based events."

The thrust of my many posts recently revolves around the fact that base load coal fired generation is nowhere near as reliable as what some people, obviously stooged by the rhetoric spewed out by conservatives, believe. Obviously, one or two or three of these generating units tripping out on the same day will not result in widespread blackouts, but it destabilises the grid no end. issues in the distribution network including localised overloads are a different kettle of fish.

Thus, widespread blackouts are a downstream event. Speaking of rhetoric, please provide a link to confirm that industrial action has resulted in widespread blackouts recently.

You have taken the first paragraph out of  context. Political, Industrial and weather based events impacting on generation supply causing grid wide load reductions I'm looking back 30 years.

Well, we all know about the weather event in SA, and the un-cooperative response from a non-government department to respond. We are all still waiting for you to post a link to industrial action causing widespread blackouts in the past 30 years?

Please?

I have heard, and I will not/cannot link, that new coal fired generation in places like India will benefit the environment because it is better than burning local heaps of dung.

Too bad we can't burn all the BS being posted on this thread.  That really would be renewable energy.

I have heard, and I will not/cannot link, that new coal fired generation in places like India will benefit the environment because it is better than burning local heaps of dung.

Too bad we can't burn all the BS being posted on this thread.  That really would be renewable energy.

But, oh, the smell!

It is a bit of a challenge to sort out what is believable, but in, maybe, thirty years, the answers will be apparent.

Hmm, not sure why I feel compelled to always prove my sources by providing valid links, while others are free to waffle on with gay abandon.

I genuinely cannot find the specific article I had in mind regarding the burning of dung by Indian households to provide for their cooking and heating needs, but there are others freely available that confirm that it happens. Just google the frickin' thing.

The article I had in mind made the simple connection that the rollout of electricity to those households removes the need to burn dung. In an overall sense, there is a resultant improvement to the environment. Just like the rollout of electric suburban rail networks removed those horrible belching steam trains from the 'burbs.

What do you mean "others are free to waffle" ? There's only one .

One that has been forgotten and is a long shot as well is using the sewerage to generate power with. It has been done overseas, while it will not be the complete solution it might help a bit if it was done! All the gas and waste now just goes into the ether when it could be used as a source of power.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/11/how-chicago-turns-sewage-into-power/416007/

I think that SA Water is in front of you, David.

https://www.sawater.com.au/news/sa-water-aims-for-$0-net-electricity-costs-by-2020

http://reneweconomy.com.au/sa-water-to-install-6mw-of-solar-pv-in-quest-to-cut-power-costs-to-zero-12872/

It's an interesting mix - PV, hydro and biogas.

You have taken the first paragraph out of  context. Political, Industrial and weather based events impacting on generation supply causing grid wide load reductions I'm looking back 30 years.

Well, we all know about the weather event in SA, and the un-cooperative response from a non-government department to respond. We are all still waiting for you to post a link to industrial action causing widespread blackouts in the past 30 years?

Please?

1985 SEQEB was the one that came to mind, yes outside 30 years just my bad, there maybe others, don't know, don't care. The context I was referring to above was pretty much from early 80's to date, ie starting with NSW early 80's power crisis. Won't debate it further here, if you want too start a new thread.

Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past
By Charles Onians

Monday 20 March 2000

Britain's winter ends tomorrow with further indications of a striking environmental change: snow is starting to disappear from our lives.

Sledges, snowmen, snowballs and the excitement of waking to find that the stuff has settled outside are all a rapidly diminishing part of Britain's culture, as warmer winters - which scientists are attributing to global climate change - produce not only fewer white Christmases, but fewer white Januaries and Februaries.

The first two months of 2000 were virtually free of significant snowfall in much of lowland Britain, and December brought only moderate snowfall in the South-east. It is the continuation of a trend that has been increasingly visible in the past 15 years: in the south of England, for instance, from 1970 to 1995 snow and sleet fell for an average of 3.7 days, while from 1988 to 1995 the average was 0.7 days. London's last substantial snowfall was in February 1991.

Global warming, the heating of the atmosphere by increased amounts of industrial gases, is now accepted as a reality by the international community. Average temperatures in Britain were nearly 0.6°C higher in the Nineties than in 1960-90, and it is estimated that they will increase by 0.2C every decade over the coming century. Eight of the 10 hottest years on record occurred in the Nineties.

However, the warming is so far manifesting itself more in winters which are less cold than in much hotter summers. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event".

How horrible this climate change thing is - poor people in England must have been hallucinating those huge snow dumps across the UK this winter because climate scientists were definite 18 years ago that there would never be snow in the UK again. Like Tim Flannery predicting with confidence ten years ago that the metro dams in Australian capital cities would never, ever be full again.

Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past
By Charles Onians

Monday 20 March 2000

Britain's winter ends tomorrow with further indications of a striking environmental change: snow is starting to disappear from our lives.

Sledges, snowmen, snowballs and the excitement of waking to find that the stuff has settled outside are all a rapidly diminishing part of Britain's culture, as warmer winters - which scientists are attributing to global climate change - produce not only fewer white Christmases, but fewer white Januaries and Februaries.

The first two months of 2000 were virtually free of significant snowfall in much of lowland Britain, and December brought only moderate snowfall in the South-east. It is the continuation of a trend that has been increasingly visible in the past 15 years: in the south of England, for instance, from 1970 to 1995 snow and sleet fell for an average of 3.7 days, while from 1988 to 1995 the average was 0.7 days. London's last substantial snowfall was in February 1991.

Global warming, the heating of the atmosphere by increased amounts of industrial gases, is now accepted as a reality by the international community. Average temperatures in Britain were nearly 0.6°C higher in the Nineties than in 1960-90, and it is estimated that they will increase by 0.2C every decade over the coming century. Eight of the 10 hottest years on record occurred in the Nineties.

However, the warming is so far manifesting itself more in winters which are less cold than in much hotter summers. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event".

How horrible this climate change thing is - poor people in England must have been hallucinating those huge snow dumps across the UK this winter because climate scientists were definite 18 years ago that there would never be snow in the UK again. Like Tim Flannery predicting with confidence ten years ago that the metro dams in Australian capital cities would never, ever be full again.

Just the opposite of the opinions of "scientists" in 1974.

Another Ice Age? - Time Magazine Jun 24, 1974.

Man, too, may be somewhat responsible for the cooling trend. The University of Wisconsin's Reid A. Bryson and other climatologists suggest that dust and other particles released into the atmosphere as a result of farming and fuel burning may be blocking more and more sunlight from reaching and heating the surface of the earth.

Link to full article: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/PDFFiles/time-another%20iceage.pdf

Tim Flannery's comments were a perfect example of over egging the pudding.
Can't recall his exact qualifications but he's not a climate scientist.

Tim Flannery's comments were a perfect example of over egging the pudding.
Can't recall his exact qualifications but he's not a climate scientist.

From WIKI:

Timothy Fridtjof "Tim" Flannery (born 28 January 1956) is an Australian mammalogist, palaeontologist, environmentalist and global warming activist who had something to do with naming the Greater Monkey-faced Bat.

Perhaps the key word is 'activist'.

Tim Flannery's comments were a perfect example of over egging the pudding.
Can't recall his exact qualifications but he's not a climate scientist.

From WIKI:

Timothy Fridtjof "Tim" Flannery (born 28 January 1956) is an Australian mammalogist, palaeontologist, environmentalist and global warming activist who had something to do with naming the Greater Monkey-faced Bat.

Perhaps the key word is 'activist'.

Might be better to include his full Bio from wiki, although looks self written

The last line is interesting, at 6m above MSL, I suspect his property is safe for his and his kids natural lives.

Background
Flannery was raised in a Catholic family in the Melbourne suburb of Sandringham, close to Port Phillip Bay, where he learned to fish and scuba dive and became aware of marine pollution and its effects on living organisms.[5] He completed a Bachelor of Arts degree in English at La Trobe University[6] in 1977, and then took a change of direction to complete a Master of Science degree in Earth Science at Monash University in 1981.[citation needed] He then left Melbourne for Sydney, enjoying its subtropical climate and species diversity.[7] In 1984, Flannery earned a doctorate at the University of New South Wales in Palaeontology for his work on the evolution of macropods (kangaroos).[citation needed]

Flannery has held various academic positions throughout his career. He spent many years in Adelaide, including a spell as Professor at the University of Adelaide, and 7 years as Director of the South Australian Museum. He was also Principal Research Scientist at the Australian Museum, and an adviser on environmental issues to the Australian Federal Parliament. In 1999 he held the year-long visiting Chair of Australian Studies at Harvard University.[8] In 2002, Flannery was appointed as chair of South Australia's [Environmental Sustainability Board (South Australia)].[9]

In 2007, Flannery became Professor in the Climate Risk Concentration of Research Excellence at Macquarie University. He left Macquarie University in mid-2013. Flannery is also a member of the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists, and a Governor of WWF-Australia. He has contributed to over 143 scientific papers.[citation needed]

Flannery is an advisor on climate change to outgoing South Australian Premier Mike Rann, and is a member of the Queensland Climate Change Council established by the Queensland Minister for Sustainability, Climate Change and Innovation Andrew McNamara. In February 2011 it was announced that Flannery had been appointed to head the Climate Change Commission established by Prime Minister Julia Gillard to explain climate change and the need for a carbon price to the public.[10]

He lives in a house with environmental features at Coba Point on the Hawkesbury River, 40 km (25 mi) north of Sydney, accessible only by boat. Although situated 6 metres above high tide[citation needed], critics have suggested the "large, low-lying waterfront home" would be underwater if his predictions of sea level rise are borne out

Tim Flannery's comments were a perfect example of over egging the pudding.
Can't recall his exact qualifications but he's not a climate scientist.

If you go back to late 80's early 90's, IT (call Computing then) expects didn't have qualifications, they were just nerds with a natural interest who knew more than the rest of us.

Climate Scientists would be similar as uni's have probably only jumped on this band wagon in last 10 years producing people with formal qualifications in climate change. As Tim is 62yrs he predated any formal undergraduate qualifications available People can make their own minds up if they think Tim F is suitably qualified.

One that has been forgotten and is a long shot as well is using the sewerage to generate power with. It has been done overseas, while it will not be the complete solution it might help a bit if it was done! All the gas and waste now just goes into the ether when it could be used as a source of power.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2015/11/how-chicago-turns-sewage-into-power/416007/

The Eastern Treatment Plant near Carrum Downs in Melbourne has been doing for quite some time.  Around 34 GWh per annum...

Some landfill sites have also harvested Methane gas for power generation or firing brickwork furnaces etc.

How horrible this climate change thing is - poor people in England must have been hallucinating those huge snow dumps across the UK this winter because climate scientists were definite 18 years ago that there would never be snow in the UK again. Like Tim Flannery predicting with confidence ten years ago that the metro dams in Australian capital cities would never, ever be full again.

Perhaps the Poms are aware of the difference between climate and weather.

Climate Scientists would be similar as uni's have probably only jumped on this band wagon in last 10 years producing people with formal qualifications in climate change. As Tim is 62yrs he predated any formal undergraduate qualifications available People can make their own minds up if they think Tim F is suitably qualified.

This is the part that makes me cranky: He was awarded the head of his own government agency on the basis of the alarmist claims in his books (which I've read). Another black mark against Gillard's name (on top of donating tens of millions in taxpayer monies to the Clinton Foundation). Labor PM's are every bit as bad as Liberal ones in awarding jobs and contracts to "mates".

Perhaps the Poms are aware of the difference between climate and weather.

Ahh... the old climate/weather conundrum. Well you know - there's no shortage of people telling us that the UK's had an absolutely brutally cold winter this year I guess that's a certain pointer to the climate changing isn't it. Extremes you know - because the UK almost never has weather that brutal in winter. Unless it's hotter in which case it's absolutely the forerunner of climate change - of course, weather conditions sticking to their historical average is also alluding to climate change. Wetter is also definitely a sign that we're going through a climate change because of the increasing carbon dioxide trapping the heat in - but drier is also a key indicator of climate change too because climate patterns have changed due to the same thing.

Incidentally... come to think of it... my bus was late this morning - climate change? Harvey Weinstein sexually molested all of those women and got away with it for years - and now that I think of it, that could also be a pointer of the fact that we're undergoing climate change. My cat is sleeping later in the day - is that climate change do you think? Probably is, seems most unlike her so it's gotta be some kind of external variable I haven't observed yet... climate change.

Perhaps the Poms are aware of the difference between climate and weather.

Ahh... the old climate/weather conundrum. Well you know - there's no shortage of people telling us that the UK's had an absolutely brutally cold winter this year I guess that's a certain pointer to the climate changing isn't it. Extremes you know - because the UK almost never has weather that brutal in winter. Unless it's hotter in which case it's absolutely the forerunner of climate change - of course, weather conditions sticking to their historical average is also alluding to climate change. Wetter is also definitely a sign that we're going through a climate change because of the increasing carbon dioxide trapping the heat in - but drier is also a key indicator of climate change too because climate patterns have changed due to the same thing.

Incidentally... come to think of it... my bus was late this morning - climate change? Harvey Weinstein sexually molested all of those women and got away with it for years - and now that I think of it, that could also be a pointer of the fact that we're undergoing climate change. My cat is sleeping later in the day - is that climate change do you think? Probably is, seems most unlike her so it's gotta be some kind of external variable I haven't observed yet... climate change.

I blame climate change for the rat trying to enter my villa last night, the two of them lived in my yard for a while now quite happily keeping to their side of the yard leaving us mostly alone however recently, now it has been coming inside, so I'm sure this is in fear of extreme weather by climate change, why else enter the house? As it crossed the line we had to kill it, so climate change will now continue unnoticed and no impact on us.

Meanwhile in Nth America I was reading about record cold weather only a month or so back, now UK.

On the flip side, the artic ice sheet appears to be shrinking and trees are moving further north of the historic tree lines. So who knows.

You have taken the first paragraph out of  context. Political, Industrial and weather based events impacting on generation supply causing grid wide load reductions I'm looking back 30 years.

Well, we all know about the weather event in SA, and the un-cooperative response from a non-government department to respond. We are all still waiting for you to post a link to industrial action causing widespread blackouts in the past 30 years?

Please?

1985 SEQEB was the one that came to mind, yes outside 30 years just my bad, there maybe others, don't know, don't care. The context I was referring to above was pretty much from early 80's to date, ie starting with NSW early 80's power crisis. Won't debate it further here, if you want too start a new thread.

Nahh, that's ok, you just keep the union-militancy-affecting-supply myth in your repertoire; the rest of us will just carry on.

Incidentally... come to think of it... my bus was late this morning - climate change? Harvey Weinstein sexually molested all of those women and got away with it for years - and now that I think of it, that could also be a pointer of the fact that we're undergoing climate change. My cat is sleeping later in the day - is that climate change do you think? Probably is, seems most unlike her so it's gotta be some kind of external variable I haven't observed yet... climate change.

Yep, I get all that, but incidentally... come to think of it... RTT_Rules has confirmed that union militancy has not been a factor in widespread blackouts since renewables have been on the scene.

Hmmm.....

Nahh, I'm just being facetious. I just wish that more of us that grace these pages had the capacity to differentiate between correlation and causation.

I just wish that more of us that grace these pages had the capacity to differentiate between correlation and causation.

"Correlation implies association, but not causation. Conversely, causation implies association, but not correlation." Discuss...

How many philosophical statisticians hang out here? Is there a plain laguage translation...

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

You have taken the first paragraph out of  context. Political, Industrial and weather based events impacting on generation supply causing grid wide load reductions I'm looking back 30 years.

Well, we all know about the weather event in SA, and the un-cooperative response from a non-government department to respond. We are all still waiting for you to post a link to industrial action causing widespread blackouts in the past 30 years?

Please?

1985 SEQEB was the one that came to mind, yes outside 30 years just my bad, there maybe others, don't know, don't care. The context I was referring to above was pretty much from early 80's to date, ie starting with NSW early 80's power crisis. Won't debate it further here, if you want too start a new thread.

Nahh, that's ok, you just keep the union-militancy-affecting-supply myth in your repertoire; the rest of us will just carry on.

I love the way you make something out of nothing.

I said out side political, industrial and weather based events on generation, what has caused grid wide load reductions to label coal unreliable. So rather you coming back with your evidence that coal is unreliable, you want to focus if one of the three I used as an example of "external factors" weather its valid or not.

Which by default means you agree coal is reliable as an energy source!

Are we done now?