New long-distance V/Line rolling stock

 
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Glad to hear they're planning to have (reinstate?) a passing loop at Kerang, and yes many crossings are being upgraded.

The Swan Hill line is currently Class 3 so even with crossing upgrades, line speed would remain much less than 130 km/h.

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The Swan Hill line is currently Class 3 so even with crossing upgrades, line speed would remain much less than 130 km/h.
Carnot
Point well made Carnot, and I think the point that many are trying to make about the Swan Hill line is that there are SO MANY LXs on the line that to upgrade them all would be a huge impost on the taxpayer.

So they are likely to be done over a period of time with the most urgent / dangerous being done first and therefore the Swanners line will possibly be the last of the Long Hauls to receive the new rolling stock as it will not be worth it while the line is still class 3 standard.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Swan Hill line is currently Class 3 so even with crossing upgrades, line speed would remain much less than 130 km/h.
Point well made Carnot, and I think the point that many are trying to make about the Swan Hill line is that there are SO MANY LXs on the line that to upgrade them all would be a huge impost on the taxpayer.

So they are likely to be done over a period of time with the most urgent / dangerous being done first and therefore the Swanners line will possibly be the last of the Long Hauls to receive the new rolling stock as it will not be worth it while the line is still class 3 standard.

BG
BrentonGolding

However with a potential catchment of 70,000+ people at the end of the line, I don't expect it will be too many years before the Swan Hill line is sorted. Already there are MANY light weight concrete sleepers between Eaglehawk and Swan Hill.

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The Swan Hill line is currently Class 3 so even with crossing upgrades, line speed would remain much less than 130 km/h.
Point well made Carnot, and I think the point that many are trying to make about the Swan Hill line is that there are SO MANY LXs on the line that to upgrade them all would be a huge impost on the taxpayer.

So they are likely to be done over a period of time with the most urgent / dangerous being done first and therefore the Swanners line will possibly be the last of the Long Hauls to receive the new rolling stock as it will not be worth it while the line is still class 3 standard.

BG
BrentonGolding
There are (according to the charts on vicsig) 47 protected level crosssings and 51 unprotected crossings between Eaglehawk and Swan hill, within a distacne of around 180 ks.
The Shepparton line has 28 protected and 31 unprotetced in a distance of 80 ks

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

THe current speed limits for the Swanhill line is 80kph for both N class hauled pass and Vlocity's.

For Shepparton the speed limit is 95kph (N class hauled pass only,line not accredited for VLocity apparently).

Interstingly both Shepparton and Swanhill lines are both Class 3 track.

Ref: Bendigo Piangil train operating data NA_NSP_02.15-RO3-2017
     Seymour Tocumwal operating data NA_NSP_02.20-RO1-2018

woodford
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
THe current speed limits for the Swanhill line is 80kph for both N class hauled pass and Vlocity's.

For Shepparton the speed limit is 95kph (N class hauled pass only,line not accredited for VLocity apparently).

Interstingly both Shepparton and Swanhill lines are both Class 3 track.

Ref: Bendigo Piangil train operating data NA_NSP_02.15-RO3-2017
     Seymour Tocumwal operating data NA_NSP_02.20-RO1-2018

woodford
woodford

That is incorrect...

Unless there have been drastically reduced speed limits imposed over the past few weeks.

If I recall the line speed from Eaglehawk to Kerang is 100Km/h and from Kerang to Swan Hill is...after the recent rail upgrade...90km/h and unless there have been some other big changes to the Swan Hill line...VLocity's are not permitted beyond Eaglehawk.


Mike.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Vinelander is correct N hauled passenger trains are 100 kmh between Eaglehawk and Kerang, 90 kmh between Kerang and Swan Hill. But unprotected crossings mean that the trip has imposed fluctuations all over the place. Not exactly comfortable rail travel.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

THe current speed limits for the Swanhill line is 80kph for both N class hauled pass and Vlocity's.

For Shepparton the speed limit is 95kph (N class hauled pass only,line not accredited for VLocity apparently).

Interstingly both Shepparton and Swanhill lines are both Class 3 track.

Ref: Bendigo Piangil train operating data NA_NSP_02.15-RO3-2017
     Seymour Tocumwal operating data NA_NSP_02.20-RO1-2018

woodford

That is incorrect...

Unless there have been drastically reduced speed limits imposed over the past few weeks.

If I recall the line speed from Eaglehawk to Kerang is 100Km/h and from Kerang to Swan Hill is...after the recent rail upgrade...90km/h and unless there have been some other big changes to the Swan Hill line...VLocity's are not permitted beyond Eaglehawk.


Mike.
The Vinelander
Oops, did not look down the chart far enough,
Vlocitys are not permitted beyond Eaglehawk,
N class pass 100kph Eaglehawk to Kerang and 90 kph from Kerang to Bryan st Swanhill.

woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Swan Hill will probably be the last to be upgraded. But this also depends on the rolling stock selected. If a push - pull set is used instead of a DMU, then the locomotive power cars may be allowed to go through unprotected level crossings at a higher speed than a V Locity. For example, the diesel tilt train to Cairns can go through unprotected level crossings at 100 kph, which is the current maximum speed on the Bendigo to Swan Hill line line now.

Given what Mike said about light weight concrete sleepers on this section of track, you may have a push -  pull train travelling at a quite respectable 120kph into Swan Hill. With a few slow downs to 100kph for level crossings as required. Such a train will also be able to do the maximum 160 kph SCS to Bendigo. So overall a faster service.

I
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
However there's little point in acquiring a push-pull set for a track that will ultimately be the same as all the other intercity tracks.

The Swan Hill line will be sorted over the next few years and we will be left with an orphan train operating on a track that can take 130Km/h VLocity's as the other lines will.

The failed Albury experiment repeated Question

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For what its worth....................................
Some mathemetical experiments with the Swanhill train

Analysis pf the existing time table shows the AVERIAGE cruising speed between Eaglehawk and Pryamid is 90kph, from Pryamid to Swanhill this speed calculates as 80kph.

Assuming VLocity's and a maximum speed of 130kph, time from Southern Cross Bendigo 1H 45m, from Bendigo to Swanhill 1H 45m ,Current time is around 4H 20, so overall time saved is around 50 minutes.
Station times, Bendigo to Swanhill

Bendigo 0 00
Eaglehawk 0 12
Pyramid 0 53
Kerang 1 15
Swanhill 1 45

The above times assume 2 minutes stationary at each stop and no "build out" time to allow for service variations. VLine would normally add another 5 or so minutes at Bendigo for this sort of thing.

THe actual time for a real service would very likely be somewhat slower than this as the above assumes NO speed restrictions anyware on the line.

woodford
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Swan Hill should be closed to passenger trains and the money saved used to upgrade the Mildura line for decent passenger services.

Swan Hill exists because it feeds the bus to Mildura.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
In the medium term, long distance configured SG VLocity's should operate from Ballarat where pax change from BG services from Melbourne via Ballan and the SG VLocity's should terminate at St Arnaud where buses connect to travel along the Sunraysia Hwy to Mildura.

There should be a minimum three (3) services a day from Ballarat to St Arnaud.

This would be a good interim measure to gauge patronage along the Ballarat - St Arnaud corridor with a view to extending services further along the Mildura line and similar to the Swan Hill line, level crossing protection, crossing rationalisations and light weight concrete sleepers should be installed to allow a line speed of 130Km/h.

The Swan Hill line will ultimately be five (5) rail services a day and the patronage will warrant it, especially when long distance 130Km/h VLocity's start and the level crossing issues are eliminated. Bus travel from Swan Hill to Mildura is rough and not very comfortable, however it serves a large market at Robinvale.

Mike.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner


The Swan Hill line will ultimately be five (5) rail services a day and the patronage will warrant it, especially when long distance 130Km/h VLocity's start and the level crossing issues are eliminated.
The Vinelander
Swan Hill has a population of about 10600.  The catchment area has a population of three parts of nothing.

Five services a day would be an insult to the taxpayer as well as to the people of Horsham, Stawell,  Mildura and other regional towns.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Interesting info and discussion, all round, here.

Duncs, I tend to agree, with your view of the push - pull configuration, because it, to some extent eliminates the, lack of level crossing, issue, even if it was used in the interim, till the level crossing, upgrades are completed.

Regarding the speed of the inter-city lines, I obviously agree 130kph is a Big improvement on what is currently the case, but given the greater distances, say Warrnambool and Albury, perhaps,  even Echuca given the level crossing issue's have been addressed on that line, would it be worth considering a class 2U track, which, if I recall, correctly gives a line speed of 140kph.
It might only be 10k faster but over the rather longer distances, would further reduce running time.

And, Mike, some very interesting as well as very precise, detail, there, your views or inside knowledge ?

Sounding great, to me.

BigShunter.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

The Swan Hill line will ultimately be five (5) rail services a day and the patronage will warrant it, especially when long distance 130Km/h VLocity's start and the level crossing issues are eliminated. Swan Hill has a population of about 10600.  The catchment area has a population of three parts of nothing.

Five services a day would be an insult to the taxpayer as well as to the people of Horsham, Stawell,  Mildura and other regional towns.
DalyWaters

Get used to the idea...it's already happening.

10,600 at Swan Hill for sure...however a growing 65,000 catchment 200 Km further along the line at Robinvale and Mildura.

Stawell, up to six (6) & Horsham, not including the twice weekly Overland and Swan Hill & Mildura already have up to five (5) services a day right now.

As patronage increases, the service frequency and transport modes will only increase in frequency and capacity.

Maybe it's time to become more familiar with your long distance timetables...

Mike.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Interesting info and discussion, all round, here.

Duncs, I tend to agree, with your view of the push - pull configuration, because it, to some extent eliminates the, lack of level crossing, issue, even if it was used in the interim, till the level crossing, upgrades are completed.

Regarding the speed of the inter-city lines, I obviously agree 130kph is a Big improvement on what is currently the case, but given the greater distances, say Warrnambool and Albury, perhaps,  even Echuca given the level crossing issue's have been addressed on that line, would it be worth considering a class 2U track, which, if I recall, correctly gives a line speed of 140kph.
It might only be 10k faster but over the rather longer distances, would further reduce running time.

And, Mike, some very interesting as well as very precise, detail, there, your views or inside knowledge ?

Sounding great, to me.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
I was envisaging a push pull set capable of 160kph, track permitting. With at least 120kph Bendigo to Swan Hill until the level crossings are upgraded.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Regional Rail Revival is aiming for 5 return train services a day on all long distance V/Line routes.

I expect more movement in this direction as the parties release their PT policies for the October election.

Mike.
  Jack Le Lievre Chief Train Controller

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
The Regional Rail Revival is aiming for 5 return train services a day on all long distance V/Line routes.

I expect more movement in this direction as the parties release their PT policies for the October election.

Mike.
The Vinelander
You mean the Saturday 24 November 2018 Election?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Interesting info and discussion, all round, here.

Duncs, I tend to agree, with your view of the push - pull configuration, because it, to some extent eliminates the, lack of level crossing, issue, even if it was used in the interim, till the level crossing, upgrades are completed.

Regarding the speed of the inter-city lines, I obviously agree 130kph is a Big improvement on what is currently the case, but given the greater distances, say Warrnambool and Albury, perhaps,  even Echuca given the level crossing issue's have been addressed on that line, would it be worth considering a class 2U track, which, if I recall, correctly gives a line speed of 140kph.
It might only be 10k faster but over the rather longer distances, would further reduce running time.

And, Mike, some very interesting as well as very precise, detail, there, your views or inside knowledge ?

Sounding great, to me.

BigShunter.
I was envisaging a push pull set capable of 160kph, track permitting. With at least 120kph Bendigo to Swan Hill until the level crossings are upgraded.
Duncs

The only push pull trains operate in NSW and QLD. As far as I am aware victoria has never had a push pull passenger train and so why would they start now. The DMU's are faster in any case since the Xplorer which is only 145km/h capable is faster then an XPT to / from broadmeadow and lithgow. If the level crossings are sorted then there is no reason for push pull XPT type trains.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Interesting info and discussion, all round, here.

Duncs, I tend to agree, with your view of the push - pull configuration, because it, to some extent eliminates the, lack of level crossing, issue, even if it was used in the interim, till the level crossing, upgrades are completed.

Regarding the speed of the inter-city lines, I obviously agree 130kph is a Big improvement on what is currently the case, but given the greater distances, say Warrnambool and Albury, perhaps,  even Echuca given the level crossing issue's have been addressed on that line, would it be worth considering a class 2U track, which, if I recall, correctly gives a line speed of 140kph.
It might only be 10k faster but over the rather longer distances, would further reduce running time.

And, Mike, some very interesting as well as very precise, detail, there, your views or inside knowledge ?

Sounding great, to me.

BigShunter.
I was envisaging a push pull set capable of 160kph, track permitting. With at least 120kph Bendigo to Swan Hill until the level crossings are upgraded.

The only push pull trains operate in NSW and QLD. As far as I am aware victoria has never had a push pull passenger train and so why would they start now. The DMU's are faster in any case since the Xplorer which is only 145km/h capable is faster then an XPT to / from broadmeadow and lithgow. If the level crossings are sorted then there is no reason for push pull XPT type trains.
simstrain
Ararat line? the last days of the P class hauled passenger trains? the Steam rail suburban Specials are generally push and pull. Suburban mateneince Trains are as well,
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Was that push pull with 2 x p classes at each end or 1 x p class with a driver cab at the other end?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Was that push pull with 2 x p classes at each end or 1 x p class with a driver cab at the other end?
simstrain

A Push-pull with a P Class loco at each end and 8 carriages.

There used to be two sets, one for the Bacchus Marsh line and the other for the Sunbury line pre-electrification.

They took many Km's to get to 100Km/h, absolutely flat out and basically couldn't pull the skin off a custard.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Regional Rail Revival is aiming for 5 return train services a day on all long distance V/Line routes.

I expect more movement in this direction as the parties release their PT policies for the October election.

Mike.
You mean the Saturday 24 November 2018 Election?
Jack Le Lievre

Happy to be corrected...though the government will be in caretaker mode and campaigning at the end of October.

Mike.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Recent announcements from the State Government have suggested that the new Long Distance fleet will be based on the Vlocity, so that suggest to me that Push Pull is out of the equation.

Locomotive hauled trains are not immune from poorly behaved motorists and truck drivers who fail to stop at a set of flashing lights. The best outcome would be for all railway lines with regular passenger trains have every crossing upgraded to a minimum standard of Lights, Bells and Booms, with pre-crossing active warning lights at all major country road level crossings.

The lines from Waurn Ponds to Warrnambool, Wendouree to Ararat, Eaglehawk to Swan Hill, Epsom to Echuca, Seymour to Shepparton & Traralgon to Bairnsdale should be upgraded to Class 2 track with a 130km/h line speed where applicable.

On top of this, All long distance services on these lines should run as proper express services through the commuter corridors. This way (take Warrnambool for an example) A typical Down Warrnambool train would leave Southern Cross, stop to pick up at Footscray and or Sunshine, then run express at 160km/h all of the way to Geelong, then run express to Waurn Ponds, then stop all to Warrnambool running at 130km/h. It would be interesting to hear what sort of time savings that would provide, especially if the same level of service was provided for all long haul services.

It would sure give rail the upper hand over road.

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