3801 Boiler and it's return to operation

 
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

The rumour is a bit strange. AFAIK the Cannon Axle boxes were opened up to allow the bearings to be inspected. Now after all has been locked up and the wheels and motion are sitting in the frame someone claims a bearing is bad. Doesn't make sense, the last report was that the wheels and motion ran smoothly with no binding when all was pushed by hand, so how would someone know if there was a bad bearing at this point in time?
I have had a fair amount of experience with bearings of this type and size. Provided the inspection was thorough all will be good. Faults such as watermarking or pitting will only become a failure after some time in service, sooner or later. Roller bearings are fairly robust items provided they are inspected to prove they have no faults and are fitted and lubricated correctly. Get one of those wrong and all bets are off.

Neill

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  a6et Minister for Railways

The rumour is a bit strange. AFAIK the Cannon Axle boxes were opened up to allow the bearings to be inspected. Now after all has been locked up and the wheels and motion are sitting in the frame someone claims a bearing is bad. Doesn't make sense, the last report was that the wheels and motion ran smoothly with no binding when all was pushed by hand, so how would someone know if there was a bad bearing at this point in time?
I have had a fair amount of experience with bearings of this type and size. Provided the inspection was thorough all will be good. Faults such as watermarking or pitting will only become a failure after some time in service, sooner or later. Roller bearings are fairly robust items provided they are inspected to prove they have no faults and are fitted and lubricated correctly. Get one of those wrong and all bets are off.

Neill
neillfarmer
I agree Neil, thing is that the wheels, especially the drivers are key components, as such surely they would have been tested for balance which would have showed up any issues. While its been since the move to Chullora and the dismantling/rebuilding taking place its not that long ago that would see the bearings seizing.

After all the loco was taken by rail to Chullora, from where, Thirlmere, or LES? If from the former any issues would have been found during that run, even a short one from the LES would have been found.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The rumour is a bit strange. AFAIK the Cannon Axle boxes were opened up to allow the bearings to be inspected. Now after all has been locked up and the wheels and motion are sitting in the frame someone claims a bearing is bad. Doesn't make sense, the last report was that the wheels and motion ran smoothly with no binding when all was pushed by hand, so how would someone know if there was a bad bearing at this point in time?
I have had a fair amount of experience with bearings of this type and size. Provided the inspection was thorough all will be good. Faults such as watermarking or pitting will only become a failure after some time in service, sooner or later. Roller bearings are fairly robust items provided they are inspected to prove they have no faults and are fitted and lubricated correctly. Get one of those wrong and all bets are off.

Neill
neillfarmer
Makes a lot of sense.
Perhaps many of us have been poisoned by the boiler and the PR disaster surrounding it.
Hopefully not long to wait now ..............................
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The rumour is a bit strange. AFAIK the Cannon Axle boxes were opened up to allow the bearings to be inspected. Now after all has been locked up and the wheels and motion are sitting in the frame someone claims a bearing is bad. Doesn't make sense, the last report was that the wheels and motion ran smoothly with no binding when all was pushed by hand, so how would someone know if there was a bad bearing at this point in time?
I have had a fair amount of experience with bearings of this type and size. Provided the inspection was thorough all will be good. Faults such as watermarking or pitting will only become a failure after some time in service, sooner or later. Roller bearings are fairly robust items provided they are inspected to prove they have no faults and are fitted and lubricated correctly. Get one of those wrong and all bets are off.

Neill
Makes a lot of sense.
Perhaps many of us have been poisoned by the boiler and the PR disaster surrounding it.
Hopefully not long to wait now ..............................
YM-Mundrabilla
Announced today that all 12 bearings on 3801 will be replaced as a precaution so that the loco can remain in service for a long period time. Seems reasonable to me. While they are at it why not source a set for 3830 and use 3801's German boiler on 3830. Then repair 3830's boiler as a spare.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Why would the German Boiler be of use for 3830 when it could not be used for 3801?

Remember also that 3830 has a different owner (or has the PHM given it to THNSW), unless that has changed.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Announced today that all 12 bearings on 3801 will be replaced as a precaution so that the loco can remain in service for a long period time. Seems reasonable to me. While they are at it why not source a set for 3830 and use 3801's German boiler on 3830. Then repair 3830's boiler as a spare.

The actual report stated 20 bearings, presumably including the tender.
In January they remarked on how smoothly the chassis rolled (on the old bearings).

Has there been any suggestion that 3830 needs new bearings?
It was restored at least nine years later than 3801, so must have run less distance.

I'm sure there are plenty of comments in this thread on the problems with the all welded boiler.
However, I understand that the firebox is too deep below the boiler to fit on a 38 class frame.
This is not the problem of the Germans, since it was built to drawings agreed by the owners of 3801.
So they don't have to "fix" it.

It would probably be cheaper to repair 3830s boiler rather than modify the German boiler to fit.
That certainly was the case with 3801's old boiler.

But if 3830's bearings are OK, why not fit 3801's boiler to it and run it while we are waiting for the new bearings.
Then we could fit 3801 with 3830's repaired boiler.

Peter
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Announced today that all 12 bearings on 3801 will be replaced as a precaution so that the loco can remain in service for a long period time. Seems reasonable to me. While they are at it why not source a set for 3830 and use 3801's German boiler on 3830. Then repair 3830's boiler as a spare.

The actual report stated 20 bearings, presumably including the tender.
In January they remarked on how smoothly the chassis rolled (on the old bearings).

Has there been any suggestion that 3830 needs new bearings?
It was restored at least nine years later than 3801, so must have run less distance.

I'm sure there are plenty of comments in this thread on the problems with the all welded boiler.
However, I understand that the firebox is too deep below the boiler to fit on a 38 class frame.
This is not the problem of the Germans, since it was built to drawings agreed by the owners of 3801.
So they don't have to "fix" it.

It would probably be cheaper to repair 3830s boiler rather than modify the German boiler to fit.
That certainly was the case with 3801's old boiler.

But if 3830's bearings are OK, why not fit 3801's boiler to it and run it while we are waiting for the new bearings.
Then we could fit 3801 with 3830's repaired boiler.

Peter
M636C
But work is still continuing on the repairs to 3801's boiler and the report notes the disappointment in the delay so will it really end up cheaper? In regard to the bearings were 3830's bearing replaced at the time it was last over hauled? If they weren't replaced they may be in the same condition as 3801's.

I understand the driver and leading truck wheels will have to be removed from the axles to replace the bearings. That seems to me to be a lengthy and involved process and your idea of placing 3801's boiler on 3830 to get something running has merit.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
When will they discover, having pressed the wheels off the leading and driving axles, that new axles are needed?

So much for all the assurances that everything was in readiness for the return of the boiler when all we had to do was fill it up (hopefully), light the fire, blow the whistle and away we go.Rolling Eyes

I doubt that 3801 will be ready in time to run the first train to Tullamarine and/or Badgery's Creek Airports.Sad
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Is there anyone involved with the overhaul of 3801 who understands the words, "Project Management"?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Is this the latest update?


http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/single-post/2018/04/12/3801-Update---April-2018


Regards,
David Head
  M636C Minister for Railways

But work is still continuing on the repairs to 3801's boiler and the report notes the disappointment in the delay so will it really end up cheaper? In regard to the bearings were 3830's bearing replaced at the time it was last over hauled? If they weren't replaced they may be in the same condition as 3801's.


I think that 3830 was built in 1949, so maybe six years later than 3801, and was withdrawn from service after less than twenty years. It then spent about thirty years out of service. So if the original bearings were preserved correctly they have done much less work than those of 3801.


But I don't really know the current state of the bearings. 3830 did run some trials just before the current boiler defects were detected.


Peter






  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Don't know what the rules are now but it used to be 200 days out of service for wagon bearings.
Does use, perhaps, cause less damage than disuse to roller bearings?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Is this the latest update?


http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/single-post/2018/04/12/3801-Update---April-2018


Regards,
David Head
dthead
Sad.
I hope that they get enough bearings to do another 38 PLUS some spares too.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Whilst ordering new bearings get some new ones for the training wheels attached to the management  team and perhaps L plates as well. Amateur hour.
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

If you read the latest report, it says the bearings are to be replaced now while the loco is still in bits, to save doing it in two or so years time.  The bearings were looked at a few years ago and at that time, they were assessed as being okay for limited use, with constant monitoring but would need to be replaced after roughly five or so years of that limited use.  With the boiler still being repaired, the decision has been taken to change 'em out now and so save the extra expense and 'down time' in the future.

As for 3830, at least one of its bearings (tender) had to be replaced post overhaul due to wear etc.  This was taken into account when considering 3801's bearings.  When the MAAS make a decision about 3830's future, all of its bearings will be carefully looked at too.
  BrigadierBrasso Station Staff

If you read the latest report, it says the bearings are to be replaced now while the loco is still in bits, to save doing it in two or so years time.  The bearings were looked at a few years ago and at that time, they were assessed as being okay for limited use, with constant monitoring but would need to be replaced after roughly five or so years of that limited use.  With the boiler still being repaired, the decision has been taken to change 'em out now and so save the extra expense and 'down time' in the future.

As for 3830, at least one of its bearings (tender) had to be replaced post overhaul due to wear etc.  This was taken into account when considering 3801's bearings.  When the MAAS make a decision about 3830's future, all of its bearings will be carefully looked at too.
Spinner5711
Except that this part of loco is not in bits.  The motion and boxes have been fully reassembled (for the 2nd time) since the overhaul commenced.  Remember that it only went back on its wheels again last year, with much fanfare and publicity.

The simple fact is that the project is not being managed at all well.  In only November last year the THNSW CEO told the world in an update that the loco would be in steam March this year, with the combining of the Thirlmere and Chullora workshop teams pushing it over the line.  Instead, they announced in the E-News in March that theyd appointed another project manager- Why do that when it was supposed to be on the home stretch?

Also worth remembering that THNSW canned their major 'steam to the regions' trip last year at extremely short notice to facilitate the summer maintenance, which would allow the Thirlmere team to go into Chullora.  That never happened and so much goodwill amongst the communities (and the volunteers that had given up time months in advance) was lost for nothing.

Piss Poor.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
If you read the latest report, it says the bearings are to be replaced now while the loco is still in bits, to save doing it in two or so years time.  The bearings were looked at a few years ago and at that time, they were assessed as being okay for limited use, with constant monitoring but would need to be replaced after roughly five or so years of that limited use.  With the boiler still being repaired, the decision has been taken to change 'em out now and so save the extra expense and 'down time' in the future.

As for 3830, at least one of its bearings (tender) had to be replaced post overhaul due to wear etc.  This was taken into account when considering 3801's bearings.  When the MAAS make a decision about 3830's future, all of its bearings will be carefully looked at too.
Spinner5711
MAAS = YAUBA. (Yet another unexplained bloody acronym).
External axlebox bearings are chicken feed compared to inboard axle bearings (especially on driving axles).
So no spares for 3830 now, presumably.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
MAAS = YAUBA. (Yet another unexplained bloody acronym).
YM-Mundrabilla
Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences. The old name for what became the Powerhouse Museum, but perhaps it still has some currency for steam loco ownership/preservation. We used to just call it the Tech Museum (in Harris St, Ultimo).
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
MAAS = YAUBA. (Yet another unexplained bloody acronym).
Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences. The old name for what became the Powerhouse Museum, but perhaps it still has some currency for steam loco ownership/preservation. We used to just call it the Tech Museum (in Harris St, Ultimo).
apw5910
Thanks apw5910.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
These people with their acronyms had better POQ because there's danger of a K in the A.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
If you read the latest report, it says the bearings are to be replaced now while the loco is still in bits, to save doing it in two or so years time.  The bearings were looked at a few years ago and at that time, they were assessed as being okay for limited use, with constant monitoring but would need to be replaced after roughly five or so years of that limited use.  With the boiler still being repaired, the decision has been taken to change 'em out now and so save the extra expense and 'down time' in the future.
Spinner5711
With the Loco dismantled to the extent of having Wheels out and Boxes removed, the decision to reassemble them only to take the whole thing apart after 5 years can hardly be described as a good use of manpower.  

The next questions that comes to mind is, are the Bearings available off the shelf? or is there going to have to be modifications made to enable what bearings are available to be fitted?, or will they have to be made to order?
The process of changing them I suspect will take quite some time especially with the wheelsets with inside bearings as both tyres and wheels will need to be removed, there is also the risk of damaging axles while pressing the wheels off.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
If you read the latest report, it says the bearings are to be replaced now while the loco is still in bits, to save doing it in two or so years time.  The bearings were looked at a few years ago and at that time, they were assessed as being okay for limited use, with constant monitoring but would need to be replaced after roughly five or so years of that limited use.  With the boiler still being repaired, the decision has been taken to change 'em out now and so save the extra expense and 'down time' in the future.
With the Loco dismantled to the extent of having Wheels out and Boxes removed, the decision to reassemble them only to take the whole thing apart after 5 years can hardly be described as a good use of manpower.  

The next questions that comes to mind is, are the Bearings available off the shelf? or is there going to have to be modifications made to enable what bearings are available to be fitted?, or will they have to be made to order?
The process of changing them I suspect will take quite some time especially with the wheelsets with inside bearings as both tyres and wheels will need to be removed, there is also the risk of damaging axles while pressing the wheels off.
NSWGR 3827
Thanks NSWGR 3827.

Is it possible/permissible to press wheels off an axle and then re-press the same wheels onto the same axle whilst retaining the same measurements (wheel bore and axle seat etc) and still achieve the necessary interference fit, please?

I was wondering whether you would need new axles to provide the necessary 'fit'?
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I reckon the Americans could have built an Aircraft carrier quicker than this mob can repair an engine.

There must be a lot of people being paid by the hour.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
And just think how many $$$ could have been saved had the Boiler been made out here, this project is turning into a farce!!
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
And just think how many $$$ could have been saved had the Boiler been made out here, this project is turning into a farce!!
lsrailfan
What do you mean "turning into a farce."  

It has been a farce for years, its only the scale of that farce which keeps escalating.

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