Horsham passenger rail: Wimmera leaders pleased with community support

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 29 Jun 2015 15:46
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The best thing for areas west of Ararat to be serviced would be to improve coaches. The timetable for Ararat drastically improved last year, yet there was little change in coaches to Horsham and Halls Gap to match.

If the currently unevenly distributed 5 Up and 4 down services to Ararat we standardized to being a proper 2 hour frequency, than coaches to and from Horsham could also run every two hours, and then continue on to regions north and west of Horsham.

What is really needed is better facilities at Ararat to facilitate a better interchange. The ticketing office has started selling cans of soft drink and chocolate, but if there were more connections at Ararat with set frequencies, something like a small coffee shop might be more viable.

The time it takes for a coach to travel Ararat - Horsham is the same as the Overland, and that is with the coach making two extra stops, and therefore being far more useful. Better coach facilities at Horsham wouldn't be a bad idea either. The building GSR use as an office/shopfront has seating and space for waiting, but last time I was there the PTV information was ridiculously outdated. Some real time info would be good.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
As much as I agree regards surveying community needs regards the planned service improvements, comparing current bus patronage usually increases by a factor of 8 when a comparable rail service is created.

Mike.
Thats fine but if there is 1 person on each bus then multiplying by 8 is not going to cut it for rail investment.  Also, if there were 1000 people on the busses, it would be impossible to have 8000 people on trains when the catchment area of just Horsham for example is around 16-20000 people...

Do you have a source for this factor/multiplyer so I can understand it more?
james.au

I'm on leave working as a consultant in Qld in case you didn't know so I cant find the data atm.
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

Article in Stawell Times:

"Stawell could be back on the passenger rail line!"

https://www.stawelltimes.com.au/story/5345312/stawell-could-be-back-on-the-passenger-rail-line/?cs=1536
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Article in Stawell Times:

"Stawell could be back on the passenger rail line!"

https://www.stawelltimes.com.au/story/5345312/stawell-could-be-back-on-the-passenger-rail-line/?cs=1536
Inland_Sailor

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11397453.htm
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Wimmera Rail Services plan to reinstate passenger rail between Horsham and Ararat gains widespread support

Greg and Tim Phillips say they could return train services on a daily basis between Horsham and Ararat “tomorrow” by capitalising on existing infrastructure.

So looks like the un-named fellows, now have names, anyone heard of these two characters ?

Tim said a copy of their proposal had gone on to John Hearsch Consulting, who completed work for the Western Rail Project.

Interesting, that they have done this, could be a smart move, though, he is the man with all the experience.


“We are in no way undermining (the Western Rail Project’s) hard work but we believe we can get services up and running a lot quicker and with less money,” he said.

“Our principal goal is to have passenger services reinstated. If we play a part and another operator comes on board then we’ve still achieved our goal.”



https://www.mailtimes.com.au/story/5352098/wimmera-rail-services-plan-gains-widespread-support/?cs=12

Link from the Wimmera MailTimes and quotes from the same.

BigShunter.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
A comprehensive report and especially around the SG upgrades from Ararat to Ballarat.  Of note is the new SG line bypassing the BG at Wendoree meaning Ararat and beyond services will pass BG Wendoree services through to ballarat.  DG at Ballarat is proposed through stage 2 with a freight terminal located on the BG/SG access west of Wendoree.

The project uses 4 x 2 car DMU units (sprinter or Vlocity?) and has new stabling and maintenance at Horsham.

Total costs per annum less than $4m. delivers 5 services each way per day.

A drop in the ocean for the current network.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What rates are they looking to charge passengers?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I dont know which of the 2 threads to put this in.  But:

A glaring omission from both this and the WRS proposal (I downloaded their PDF) is any consideration of the profit and loss of this service.  No consideration of the revenues that will be earned whatsoever.  Not one mention of revenue, sale, price, fare, or ticket (in the context of ticket to ride).  Are they expecting government to just hand over the cost to them for them to run????  

Wimmera Rail Services is lobbying for funding to develop a business case to advance the proposal.
Wimmera MailTimes

They are certainly lobbying for government to do their business plan for them.  Does that make sense - government doing the business plan for a private sector participant???

Greg and Tim called on people supporting the return of passenger rail to share their views with politicians.
Wimmera MailTimes

If the projects (ether of them) stacked up, they would be going to the departments themselves with their plans (not politicans) and getting the necessary accreditations/approvals to operate...

I am all for new operators to get in and do something new, but these proposals are nowhere near good enough for me to take seriously at this stage.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
You raise some good points as I had assumed Myki would be the vehicle for ticketing?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What would the myki fare for these trips be?  What revenue would this generate?  How does this compare to the cost of operating these services?
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
What would the myki fare for these trips be?  What revenue would this generate?  How does this compare to the cost of operating these services?
james.au

If each trip had a maximum of 120 passengers and was 80% full with 10 trips per day passenger journeys would exceed 192,000 passengers per year.  I have calculated this by using 96 passengers per trip over 5 days per week (no weekends included) and 10 months of the year.

If you consider a fare of say $20 per trip assuming those passengers are going to Melbourne or maybe $15 per trip assuming to Ballarat then the revenue for the year would approximate $2.9m per annum.  The shortfall would be around $500k per annum.

Remember these services would replace the current coach services identified in the report.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
What would the myki fare for these trips be?  What revenue would this generate?  How does this compare to the cost of operating these services?
james.au

You get these kind of questions from people who never travel beyond the Myki Zone...

Myki ENDS at Wendouree...almost 200 Km short of Horsham. If Myki were to be extended to Horsham, it would need to be rolled out for the whole state.

Mike.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
What would the myki fare for these trips be?  What revenue would this generate?  How does this compare to the cost of operating these services?
james.au
Travel throughout Victoria with Vline works on a zone system and it is quite complex.

https://www.vline.com.au/Fares-general-info/Ticketing-myki

has a fare calculator which shows for that Ararat / Bendigo or Echuca > Melbourne is $29.60 off peak full fare or $42.40 peak so you could expect Horsham to be around the same.

However the reality is that few people actually pay this fare. Concession is half price (and there are plenty of those using V/Line) and those with a pass (yearly ticket) pay a fraction of the full fare at least if travelling from Bendigo or Castlemaine. Then there are family tickets etc etc.

Ticketing would pretty much have to be done by PTV due to the complexities involved so I would imagine the fare box would go to them under a proposal such as this and then they would pay the contract cost to the operator similar to how the coach network operates.

BG
  nozza99 Station Master

Location: Warrnambool, Vic
Fares in Victoria work on a per kilometer basis.

See attached...

Fare Table

Charging Units are Kilometers station to station, rounded up to the nearest 20km
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
Wimmera Rail Services plan to reinstate passenger rail between Horsham and Ararat gains widespread support

Greg and Tim Phillips say they could return train services on a daily basis between Horsham and Ararat “tomorrow” by capitalising on existing infrastructure.

So looks like the un-named fellows, now have names, anyone heard of these two characters ?

Tim said a copy of their proposal had gone on to John Hearsch Consulting, who completed work for the Western Rail Project.

https://www.mailtimes.com.au/story/5352098/wimmera-rail-services-plan-gains-widespread-support/?cs=12

Link from the Wimmera MailTimes and quotes from the same.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
I am not sure who they are, but I do believe that there is a Heather Phillips sitting on Horsham Rural City Council

https://www.hrcc.vic.gov.au/files/.../ordinary-agenda-4-sept-2017.compressed.pdf
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
This story is becoming a living and breathing BEAST that is SO fanciful that it needs to be killed off until an announcement from the Government closer to the 2018 Election or another time that the government accepts the Rail Futures proposal and we go about this new project in an orderly, methodical and properly FUNDED...did I say FUNDED way.

Mike.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

This story is becoming a living and breathing BEAST that is SO fanciful that it needs to be killed off until an announcement from the Government closer to the 2018 Election or another time that the government accepts the Rail Futures proposal and we go about this new project in an orderly, methodical and properly FUNDED...did I say FUNDED way.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Ten points for having a go though.  Given the timing of the election and where the lobbying needs to be and when, one would have to say its happening all in the right places at the right time.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
This story is becoming a living and breathing BEAST that is SO fanciful that it needs to be killed off until an announcement from the Government closer to the 2018 Election or another time that the government accepts the Rail Futures proposal and we go about this new project in an orderly, methodical and properly FUNDED...did I say FUNDED way.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Agreed, but, who says the Rail Futures report is the right one either.....
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
This story is becoming a living and breathing BEAST that is SO fanciful that it needs to be killed off until an announcement from the Government closer to the 2018 Election or another time that the government accepts the Rail Futures proposal and we go about this new project in an orderly, methodical and properly FUNDED...did I say FUNDED way.
The Vinelander

Reading this with interest.  West Coast Railway in my view was a successful example of how a private company can add value in the business of passenger services.  WCR attracted customers to rail when they were leaving, turned a profit and provided a level of service over and above what V/Line had historically provided.  The distances in the proposed Horsham to Ballarat service would be less than Melbourne to Warrnambool.  Costs would be lower, track maintenance is on a main line heavily used so it would be looked after and populations along the route would add up to that close to Warrnambool.

This has merit and I fail to see how this would not have legs with the rural councils behind it.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What would the myki fare for these trips be?  What revenue would this generate?  How does this compare to the cost of operating these services?

You get these kind of questions from people who never travel beyond the Myki Zone...

Myki ENDS at Wendouree...almost 200 Km short of Horsham. If Myki were to be extended to Horsham, it would need to be rolled out for the whole state.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I regularly travel beyond the Myki zone - most often in the Opal zone and then in the zone between Opal and Myki.  Dont shoot me for that!
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What would the myki fare for these trips be?  What revenue would this generate?  How does this compare to the cost of operating these services?

If each trip had a maximum of 120 passengers and was 80% full with 10 trips per day passenger journeys would exceed 192,000 passengers per year.  I have calculated this by using 96 passengers per trip over 5 days per week (no weekends included) and 10 months of the year.

If you consider a fare of say $20 per trip assuming those passengers are going to Melbourne or maybe $15 per trip assuming to Ballarat then the revenue for the year would approximate $2.9m per annum.  The shortfall would be around $500k per annum.

Remember these services would replace the current coach services identified in the report.
x31
Interesting analysis, however I suspect that the costs are going to be higher than what we are looking at in this document.

Also im not sure that 1200 people per day will be travelling to/from Melbourne/Ballarat from Horsham given the LGA has a population of less than 20k.  Thats about 1.5 trips per month for each person.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
This story is becoming a living and breathing BEAST that is SO fanciful that it needs to be killed off until an announcement from the Government closer to the 2018 Election or another time that the government accepts the Rail Futures proposal and we go about this new project in an orderly, methodical and properly FUNDED...did I say FUNDED way.

Mike.
Agreed, but, who says the Rail Futures report is the right one either.....
james.au

Rail Futures were commissioned by the government to research the viability of the proposal and write the report...so that's the best we have and what will be worked with.

No doubt, before any budget for a proposal is set aside there will be MUCH community consultation.

Mike.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
This story is becoming a living and breathing BEAST that is SO fanciful that it needs to be killed off until an announcement from the Government closer to the 2018 Election or another time that the government accepts the Rail Futures proposal and we go about this new project in an orderly, methodical and properly FUNDED...did I say FUNDED way.

Mike.
Agreed, but, who says the Rail Futures report is the right one either.....

Rail Futures were commissioned by the government to research the viability of the proposal and write the report...so that's the best we have and what will be worked with.

No doubt, before any budget for a proposal is set aside there will be MUCH community consultation.

Mike.
The Vinelander
There is no assessment of viability in the report that I can see.  Its a well written and researched piece but talks only about operations and doesnt delve into the needs analysis or financial aspects of such a project.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Fares in Victoria work on a per kilometer basis.

See attached...

Fare Table

Charging Units are Kilometers station to station, rounded up to the nearest 20km
nozza99
Nice one Nozza, that was what I was looking for but couldn't find.

So CME is 125km from SC or thereabouts but my fare is at or around the $16.60 level which seems to apply to to the 100km mark which sort of backs up your nearest 20km mark.

So in effect the 125km is rounded down to 100?

BG
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

No BG, the fare table only applies to travel in non-myki areas, outside of which the zones apply.

Here’s the full manual which explains it in great detail.

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