Melbourne Metro Rail Project Revived

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 16 Feb 2015 17:54
  True Believers Chief Commissioner


For your information vinelander

1. Sydney north west metro has 15.5 km's of new twin tunnel and about 10km's of skyrail. $7.8 billion
2. CBD and south west metro is another 30km's with 15.5 km's in tunnels from Chatswood to Sydenham including tunnelling under Sydney harbour. $11 billion
3. Sydney metro west will be about a 25km tunnel from the Sydney CBD to Westmead station. approx $10-15 billion

Melbourne Metro is 9km's.
Cross River Rail is 10.2km's.
Perth Airport line is 8.5 km's.But it's not a real railway, it's a (nearly) everyone stand Metro style toy train from the outer suburbs with commensurate long journey times to the city. Think the people will be happy?
The trains are not London tube small and are most certainly not toy trains. The Sydney metro will be a lot faster then the Sydney train system as well and so those people that are standing won't be doing so for that long.

In any case the new Melbourne metro tunnel will be great for Melbourne regardless if it takes one year longer then Sydney's new metro system. It will for instance take pressure off the trams during the grand prix.
simstrain
Melbourne metro is running 7-car trains with potential to run 10-car trains into the future. Sydney Metro can only run 6-cars trains long.

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  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Sydney Metro can only run 6-cars trains long.
"James974"
Please excuse the ignorance of a Mexican, but could you explain exactly what "Sydney Metro" refers to in this context.
I visit Sydney four or five times a year, and frequently catch 8-car trains to a variety of places. I'm guessing that you're talking about one specific area that can only handle 6 cars, so would appreciate some info.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Sydney Metro can only run 6-cars trains long.
Please excuse the ignorance of a Mexican, but could you explain exactly what "Sydney Metro" refers to in this context.
I visit Sydney four or five times a year, and frequently catch 8-car trains to a variety of places. I'm guessing that you're talking about one specific area that can only handle 6 cars, so would appreciate some info.
Valvegear
Sydney Metro is thus:



As always, google is your friend and this is the first result.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Sydney metro is capable of handling 8 car trains but will start off with 6 car trains as there isn't the demand for 8 car trains when running on the higher frequencies.  

Also car number isn't a overall good indicator of length or capacity as car lengths between different places vary substantially.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
This is interesting:    https://independentaustralia.net/business/business-display/the-sydney-metro-northwest-tunnels--death-traps-in-the-making,11463
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
I think I stuffed that up,well actually I did stuff it up.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


For your information vinelander

1. Sydney north west metro has 15.5 km's of new twin tunnel and about 10km's of skyrail. $7.8 billion
2. CBD and south west metro is another 30km's with 15.5 km's in tunnels from Chatswood to Sydenham including tunnelling under Sydney harbour. $11 billion
3. Sydney metro west will be about a 25km tunnel from the Sydney CBD to Westmead station. approx $10-15 billion

Melbourne Metro is 9km's.
Cross River Rail is 10.2km's.
Perth Airport line is 8.5 km's.But it's not a real railway, it's a (nearly) everyone stand Metro style toy train from the outer suburbs with commensurate long journey times to the city. Think the people will be happy?
The trains are not London tube small and are most certainly not toy trains. The Sydney metro will be a lot faster then the Sydney train system as well and so those people that are standing won't be doing so for that long.

In any case the new Melbourne metro tunnel will be great for Melbourne regardless if it takes one year longer then Sydney's new metro system. It will for instance take pressure off the trams during the grand prix.Melbourne metro is running 7-car trains with potential to run 10-car trains into the future. Sydney Metro can only run 6-cars trains long.
James974

6 car trains is only the initial operating length. Sydney will eventually run 8 car trains and at up to 30 trains an hour. Remember this is not just 30 trains an hour for a certain part of the line but the entire line.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

This is interesting, and, I think, A Good Thing.

Metro Tunnel HQ Opens In The Heart Of The City

We might scoff at the idea as propaganda or spin, but talking to people who catch the train daily but take little to no interest in the railway itself, it's clear many do not have any understand of just what this project is. Better to have a big education strategy now than outrage manufactured by the Herald Sun and No Skyrail crowd in ~6 years when the last of them realise they won't be able to catch a direct train to Flinders St any longer. Even on a less cynical level, the average train user or resident is more likely to drop in with a question than trawl through thousands of pages of documentation on the website.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

6 car trains is only the initial operating length. Sydney will eventually run 8 car trains and at up to 30 trains an hour. Remember this is not just 30 trains an hour for a certain part of the line but the entire line.

Can you show me the source of the information, I love to have a read of it.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

This is interesting, and, I think, A Good Thing.

Metro Tunnel HQ Opens In The Heart Of The City

We might scoff at the idea as propaganda or spin, but talking to people who catch the train daily but take little to no interest in the railway itself, it's clear many do not have any understand of just what this project is. Better to have a big education strategy now than outrage manufactured by the Herald Sun and No Skyrail crowd in ~6 years when the last of them realise they won't be able to catch a direct train to Flinders St any longer. Even on a less cynical level, the average train user or resident is more likely to drop in with a question than trawl through thousands of pages of documentation on the website.
potatoinmymouth
Except the train will stop at Flinders St, aka "Town Hall".
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

TfV has published a new glossy brochure outlining operations at the completion of the Metro Tunnel and some other bits and bobs. What I find particularly interesting is that this is almost exactly what the good folk at PTV could only dream of a few years ago. It's nice to see some progress at long last.

Items of operational interest:
  • Glen Waverley line running centre tracks through Burnley and East Richmond and apparently into 12/13 at Flinders St - could just be the map because this seems very odd
  • Balancing Sandy services with Werribee/Williamstown should be fun
  • V/Line services accessing SCS 15/16 is going to be a nightmare
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

.............when the last of them realise they won't be able to catch a direct train to Flinders St any longer..........
potatoinmymouth

Parliament, Flagstaff & Southern Cross for Dandenong liners and Sunburyites. Town Hall and State Library are the equivalents of Flinders Street and Melbourne Central respectively, although in some cases extra walking will be involved, eg if you work at Southbank and currently use the Elizabeth Street end of Flinders Street.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

.............when the last of them realise they won't be able to catch a direct train to Flinders St any longer..........

Parliament, Flagstaff & Southern Cross for Dandenong liners and Sunburyites. Town Hall and State Library are the equivalents of Flinders Street and Melbourne Central respectively, although in some cases extra walking will be involved, eg if you work at Southbank and currently use the Elizabeth Street end of Flinders Street.
kitchgp
I'm fully aware of how the rail system will work, but I was specifically referring to the segments of the community who oppose change at all costs. I can practically guarantee if you open the Herald Sun's letters page in 2025 someone will be complaining they can't catch a train to Flinders St "as I and my family have done for the last 120 years"...
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger

Items of operational interest:
  • Glen Waverley line running centre tracks through Burnley and East Richmond and apparently into 12/13 at Flinders St - could just be the map because this seems very odd
  • Balancing Sandy services with Werribee/Williamstown should be fun
  • V/Line services accessing SCS 15/16 is going to be a nightmare
potatoinmymouth
The map is a travel map, not a detailed explanation of how the lines at Flinders St are arranged - Upfield and Craigieburn services don't use platform 1 at the moment for example.

I'm imagining that there will be some Newport trains that terminate/originate at Flinders St in the peak. There will be quite a few platforms freed up once the Dandenong trains are taken out, and Frankstons all go through the loop.

V/Line trains will (or maybe should) have their own tracks between the tunnel portals at South Yarra and Flinders St. While another flyover will probably be needed between Richmond and Flinders St in the future, even with peak frequency there should be enough room to switch them over. Or maybe there will be a combination of Sandringham services that terminate at Flinders and Newport that terminate at Southern Cross to leave room.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

……………………………………………………………..

Items of operational interest:
  • Glen Waverley line running centre tracks through Burnley and East Richmond and apparently into 12/13 at Flinders St - could just be the map because this seems very odd
  • ………………………………………..
potatoinmymouth

Weekday AM direct Flinders Street and PM via the City Loop appears to remain as it is currently run. Down Glen Waverley trains can use the Burnley flyover from either the Local or Through lines. Up Glen Waverley trains have to effectively cross the Local line at grade (joining the Local line at Burnley then crossing to the Through line at East Richmond) to access the City Loop track.

Dual-tracking the Burnley flyover would obviate this limitation. Such a project might join the flying pigs if it was decided to skyrail the Madden Grove level crossing. However entry to the Burnley stabling sidings would probably need to be moved to the other end, with reversing at Darling or creating reversing facilities at Heyington.

Burnley Group interchanges between direct Flinders Street and City Loop trains at Richmond are the ideal for an interchange. City-bound trains use the island Platform 7 & 8, so passengers only have to cross the platform. Outbound trains use the island Platform 9 & 10. Caulfield Group & Sandringham passengers have to use one of the subways.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I had a look in the business case for information about the Werribee/Williamstown-Sandringham arrangements.

PTV's service plan suggests that the 20 trains from the west in peak hour be balanced by 9 to Sandringham, 3 to Middle Brighton and 4 to South Yarra - leaving a deficit of 4 at Flinders St. Across two peak hours the deficit rises to 9.

This is a timetabling nightmare in the making. Service patterns will be inconsistent, platforms at FSS will change daily - not a good passenger experience, and certainly not the "through line" that the map implies.

One certainly wonders if platform 11 may need to be reinstated to deal with the situation. Platform 13 will be useless anyway so why not?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

I had a look in the business case for information about the Werribee/Williamstown-Sandringham arrangements.

PTV's service plan suggests that the 20 trains from the west in peak hour be balanced by 9 to Sandringham, 3 to Middle Brighton and 4 to South Yarra - leaving a deficit of 4 at Flinders St. Across two peak hours the deficit rises to 9.

This is a timetabling nightmare in the making. Service patterns will be inconsistent, platforms at FSS will change daily - not a good passenger experience, and certainly not the "through line" that the map implies.

One certainly wonders if platform 11 may need to be reinstated to deal with the situation. Platform 13 will be useless anyway so why not?
potatoinmymouth
PTV plan service levels are a joke and shouldn't be taken as fact nor intention. Running 3tph west of Footscray to Sunbury in 2026 is not going to happen.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Hi all,

I'm a bit out on discussion this thread so forgive me if I mention anything that's been discussed in recent pages.

On a more practical level early construction work will be starting around South Yarra this coming weekend. Trains will be replaced by buses between Elsternwick - South Yarra so they can access the line and commence construction on a support building above the tunnel entrance. There will be a bustitution on the next weekend after as well. Similarly there will be a shutdown of the Sunbury line between Sunshine - North Melbourne so they can complete removing high-voltage towers beside South Kensington station - it's been fascinating watching the realignment of high-voltage lines through this area in recent weeks.

Map & some detail of the construction plans for South Yarra: https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/construction/south-yarra/eastern-tunnel-entrance-construction

On page 10 of this Eastern Portal Development Plan document is the site layout and early plans for the portal building: https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/233404/Eastern-Portal-Development-Plan-DRAFT.pdf

There is a similar document for the Western portal at South Kensington.

Re the timetabling and running issues, I have heard or read somewhere that due to the removal of Pakenham/Cranbourne trains from Platforms 5 & 6 at South Yarra, this will open up those platforms for other lines.  V/Line trains will still be able to access those tracks, but I think there is a turn back to be built at South Yarra and some trains from Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown would be able to terminate at South Yarra. This would allow for through routing of more trains through Flinders St.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Weekday AM direct Flinders Street and PM via the City Loop appears to remain as it is currently run. Down Glen Waverley trains can use the Burnley flyover from either the Local or Through lines. Up Glen Waverley trains have to effectively cross the Local line at grade (joining the Local line at Burnley then crossing to the Through line at East Richmond) to access the City Loop track.

Dual-tracking the Burnley flyover would obviate this limitation. Such a project might join the flying pigs if it was decided to skyrail the Madden Grove level crossing. However entry to the Burnley stabling sidings would probably need to be moved to the other end, with reversing at Darling or creating reversing facilities at Heyington.

Burnley Group interchanges between direct Flinders Street and City Loop trains at Richmond are the ideal for an interchange. City-bound trains use the island Platform 7 & 8, so passengers only have to cross the platform. Outbound trains use the island Platform 9 & 10. Caulfield Group & Sandringham passengers have to use one of the subways.
"kitchgp"

Don't worry, pigs will be flying when they decide to touch the Burnley group for anything that isn't signalling/electrical or one-in-five sleeper replacement and anything else that always brings a week or two of bustitution for no net improvement. The pit at Burnley platform 4 sums up the entire group - decrepit, broken, and patched up just enough to keep running without requiring Ventura's finest every second day.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
A lot of preliminary works around South Yarra over the last weekend finishing last night.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner


For your information vinelander

1. Sydney north west metro has 15.5 km's of new twin tunnel and about 10km's of skyrail. $7.8 billion
2. CBD and south west metro is another 30km's with 15.5 km's in tunnels from Chatswood to Sydenham including tunnelling under Sydney harbour. $11 billion
3. Sydney metro west will be about a 25km tunnel from the Sydney CBD to Westmead station. approx $10-15 billion

Melbourne Metro is 9km's.
Cross River Rail is 10.2km's.
Perth Airport line is 8.5 km's.But it's not a real railway, it's a (nearly) everyone stand Metro style toy train from the outer suburbs with commensurate long journey times to the city. Think the people will be happy?
The trains are not London tube small and are most certainly not toy trains. The Sydney metro will be a lot faster then the Sydney train system as well and so those people that are standing won't be doing so for that long.

In any case the new Melbourne metro tunnel will be great for Melbourne regardless if it takes one year longer then Sydney's new metro system. It will for instance take pressure off the trams during the grand prix.Melbourne metro is running 7-car trains with potential to run 10-car trains into the future. Sydney Metro can only run 6-cars trains long.
James974
Melbourne's rail project is not a proper metro. It is simply a bypass to create extra capacity through the CBD and link the two busiest corridors, Sunbury and Cranbourne/Pakenham. And at passed its central core trains will have to share with freight and V/Line.

Michael
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner


For your information vinelander

1. Sydney north west metro has 15.5 km's of new twin tunnel and about 10km's of skyrail. $7.8 billion
2. CBD and south west metro is another 30km's with 15.5 km's in tunnels from Chatswood to Sydenham including tunnelling under Sydney harbour. $11 billion
3. Sydney metro west will be about a 25km tunnel from the Sydney CBD to Westmead station. approx $10-15 billion

Melbourne Metro is 9km's.
Cross River Rail is 10.2km's.
Perth Airport line is 8.5 km's.But it's not a real railway, it's a (nearly) everyone stand Metro style toy train from the outer suburbs with commensurate long journey times to the city. Think the people will be happy?
The trains are not London tube small and are most certainly not toy trains. The Sydney metro will be a lot faster then the Sydney train system as well and so those people that are standing won't be doing so for that long.

In any case the new Melbourne metro tunnel will be great for Melbourne regardless if it takes one year longer then Sydney's new metro system. It will for instance take pressure off the trams during the grand prix.Melbourne metro is running 7-car trains with potential to run 10-car trains into the future. Sydney Metro can only run 6-cars trains long.Melbourne's rail project is not a proper metro. It is simply a bypass to create extra capacity through the CBD and link the two busiest corridors, Sunbury and Cranbourne/Pakenham. And at passed its central core trains will have to share with freight and V/Line.

Michael
mejhammers1
This is absolutely true, though it is worth noting that the project creates an end-to-end line, sometimes described as a feature of a metro system because of its impact on service patterns.

In all other respects, though, it is an augmentation of the conventional railway. (Although the business case did analyse a similar project to create a standalone metro system.)
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

John Holland et al selected as preferred bidders for the Rail Infrastructure Alliance package (tunnel portals etc). One thing this does demonstrate is that the whole "multiple work packages" business is a bit of a furphy - JH won the Early Works, so they were obviously at a cost advantage for the Tunnel and Stations because they already had plant and contractors in situ, and now they win the RIA for the same reasons, and because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish that one company can connect a tunnel to a train line for less than two companies doing the same job!

The press release also makes mention of vague "works on train lines out in the suburbs" which presumably includes the platform extensions along the Sunbury line, the West Footscray turnback and modifications to stabling at Watergardens, Calder Park and Sunbury.

edit: Although the current website does not mention these, the following suburban works were also proposed in the business case as part of the scope of works:
  • Essendon turnback
  • Gowrie turnback
  • Carrum stabling reconfiguration
  • Cheltenham turnback (not quite sure what this is getting at - doesn't it already exist? Vicsig noted there hadn't been a scheduled Cheltenham service since 1998 but that was in 2006)
Presumably some or all of these are part of the package.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Another dumb question from me: Why can't trains already turn back at Gowrie? It doesn't seem like there is a problem. They just advance to the point the line becomes a single track, the points change, and then they return to platform 1.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Although the current website does not mention these, the following suburban works were also proposed in the business case as part of the scope of works:
  • Essendon turnback
Platform 1, it’s already there. Just needs to be reinstated. Minor works really. See what it looks like after LXRA are done with Buckley Street.
  • Gowrie turnback
Should be done as part of duplication to upfield and on to Wallan. This should be one package of works IMO.
  • Carrum stabling reconfiguration
This is already underway, LX removal and new stabling at Kannanok and eventually Baxter.
  • Cheltenham turnback (not quite sure what this is getting at - doesn't it already exist? Vicsig noted there hadn't been a scheduled Cheltenham service since 1998 but that was in 2006)
Don’t know about that one, is a little strange.

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