3801 Boiler

 
  a6et Minister for Railways

There are no conspiracies. All I see all around me are good people busting their guts and trying their hardest to do something before everybody dies.

Please help us.

Please.

Congratulations @zordmaker on one of the best posts I have ever read on Railpage! I am a member of a couple of heritage rail organisations too, however I'm on the wrong side of 65 and am kept busy with other priorities. As I've said many times before, I hope my small financial contributions to such organisations help. For those who are young enough and have circumstances that allow it, yes, please help.
Graham4405
Totally agree with you Graham.   Nothing in what Zordmaker says surprises me at all especially with the age of those involved in these projects.

What sort of annoys me is that when both 3801 and 30 were worked on to get them back into service, many years back now, a fair number of apprentices at both the state dockyard and the HVTC worked on these two engines, and each said how great it was, while its too late now to do much, surely its time that Heritage NSW along with the government could not be looking into having new apprentices trained in order to try to ensure that we have a viable heritage fleet into the future.

The way things are now, with so much pressure on those who are involved dwindling in numbers, and age is certainly catching up with so many who still have the skills, the future looks bleak.  Perhaps also, and this is the most unlikely thing that could happen is to try and get a multi party agreement as to the need to keep a heritage fleet for the future, also to be not just one engine to run the program.

Sponsored advertisement

  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
The main reason for "cover up" is usually because projects are often on the receiving end of unstated benefits that "TPTB" don't want other Government divisions or even ministers to find out about. Without these "benefits", the project would just stop.

The 3801 project is a good one to quote in this regard because quite a lot of $ is not coming out of that $5m handed to THNSW every year by the NSW Govt. There are separate money streams for the 3801 project currently coming out of (gawd knows what column) in TfNSW's books. There's also favouritism being shown to it by some other entities. Entities who might not really want to have that fact known widely otherwise "trouble makers" will no doubt make a fuss about it, cry "unfair!!" and have it stopped. So those lovely three letters "CIC" come out. ("Commercial in confidence").

"Officially", The NSW Govt spends $5m per year on transport heritage. However "unofficially", this figure is much larger. Favours may also not be financial. They can often be simply allowing use of land, personnel, all sorts of things. This sort of thing has always been at the centre of rail heritage in NSW. Without it, we wouldn't have any preserved trains at all or (more importantly) anywhere to put them.
zordmaker
I'm in furious agreement with you on this point. Rail heritage groups have a very hard time getting anything out of Governments without a significant amount of help 'from the inside'. Often-times this leads to what other people involved in rail heritage would call an unfair distribution of resources. The sad fact of the matter is that there's no proper remedy for this and perhaps never will. We live in an unfair world and if you don't play the game, you get nothing.

As an example: around a decade ago a railway preservation group approached some of their contacts in a Government organisation about getting an at-the-time unused asset donated to them. Said group invested a lot of time and manpower in this endeavour. Another rail heritage group heard about this and cried foul: "this should be an open process, other groups may want this asset too!". Higher-ups in the Government organisation took notice. So what did they do? They sold the asset. No preservation group got it. But hey, at least the process was fair - no particular group was favoured by it!

In many ways it's the Original Sin of railway historical preservation - think of how Heavy Harry and X36 in Victoria were saved from the scrapper's torch at Newport by being continuously 'moved down' the scrapping list by helpful VR employees until they could be officially preserved.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Absolutely agree, fantastic post Zordmaker.

It is the little things that people don't see, the used sleepers falling off the back of a truck instead of being sold to the local Garden Centre for a pittance, the Hi-Rail offloaded for $1 instead of being auctioned, the Big Railway safe worker who's job just happens to take them to the town where a Heritage service is running to so he can set the road instead of paying a crew thousands to drive out to Whoop Whoop to do the job that volunteers are not allowed to do.

That is why sometimes it is best to shut up and just let things take their course instead of upsetting the apple cart and losing everything.

BG
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Absolutely agree, fantastic post Zordmaker.

It is the little things that people don't see, the used sleepers falling off the back of a truck instead of being sold to the local Garden Centre for a pittance, the Hi-Rail offloaded for $1 instead of being auctioned, the Big Railway safe worker who's job just happens to take them to the town where a Heritage service is running to so he can set the road instead of paying a crew thousands to drive out to Whoop Whoop to do the job that volunteers are not allowed to do.

That is why sometimes it is best to shut up and just let things take their course instead of upsetting the apple cart and losing everything.

BG
BrentonGolding
All government railways are now very strict on corrupt practices. Shutting up about corrupt practices can land you in a lot of hot water with losing your job being the most likely but disposing of a Hi Railer for a $1 probably landing you in gaol. Not a great idea not upsetting the apple cart.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Absolutely agree, fantastic post Zordmaker.

It is the little things that people don't see, the used sleepers falling off the back of a truck instead of being sold to the local Garden Centre for a pittance, the Hi-Rail offloaded for $1 instead of being auctioned, the Big Railway safe worker who's job just happens to take them to the town where a Heritage service is running to so he can set the road instead of paying a crew thousands to drive out to Whoop Whoop to do the job that volunteers are not allowed to do.

That is why sometimes it is best to shut up and just let things take their course instead of upsetting the apple cart and losing everything.

BG
All government railways are now very strict on corrupt practices. Shutting up about corrupt practices can land you in a lot of hot water with losing your job being the most likely but disposing of a Hi Railer for a $1 probably landing you in gaol. Not a great idea not upsetting the apple cart.
nswtrains
I think you miss the point in what is said.  The aspect that happens is that organisations are donated an item but they are charged a very token amount for it. This covers the paperwork and a lot of other things as well, its marked as sold, being surplus to use.

You would be surprised at how much was donated in that manner with full approval from the powers to be.  There is and has been a lot of these things go on for many years with approval from high officials.
  zordmaker Train Controller

Location: NSW
Absolutely agree, fantastic post Zordmaker.

It is the little things that people don't see, the used sleepers falling off the back of a truck instead of being sold to the local Garden Centre for a pittance, the Hi-Rail offloaded for $1 instead of being auctioned, the Big Railway safe worker who's job just happens to take them to the town where a Heritage service is running to so he can set the road instead of paying a crew thousands to drive out to Whoop Whoop to do the job that volunteers are not allowed to do.

That is why sometimes it is best to shut up and just let things take their course instead of upsetting the apple cart and losing everything.

BG
All government railways are now very strict on corrupt practices. Shutting up about corrupt practices can land you in a lot of hot water with losing your job being the most likely but disposing of a Hi Railer for a $1 probably landing you in gaol. Not a great idea not upsetting the apple cart.
I think you miss the point in what is said.  The aspect that happens is that organisations are donated an item but they are charged a very token amount for it. This covers the paperwork and a lot of other things as well, its marked as sold, being surplus to use.

You would be surprised at how much was donated in that manner with full approval from the powers to be.  There is and has been a lot of these things go on for many years with approval from high officials.
a6et
There's nothing corrupt going on - there never is. These people aren't stupid. They just look for opportunity and use it where they can, just like some examples above. However when you're treading on lily leaves in a pond of political opinion, it's necessary to make as few waves as possible or the whole lot sinks. Eventually you get to shore and when that happens you can then tell everyone the good news, pat everyone on the back and let the top brass take the credit for things they never knew were happening.

Just about everything we have in the shed at Redfern, exists today because some middle manager somewhere was convinced to hide it from the top brass or a scrapper in the '90s. Today? Senior managers stand in front of media and take credit for supporting things like the F1 Project while we stand there watching and bite our tongues, knowing full well how hard these same people made our life years beforehand when they embarked on relentless attempts to eradicate us and our stupid idea of having heritage trains that actually go somewhere with passengers.

Meanwhile our friends continue to die one by one, such that there's now at least two pages in "Roundhouse" dedicated to obituaries every quarter. Tragically in 2016 HET's long standing Secretary died only two weeks before the F1 project came to fruition and the train carried its first passengers in 13 years.

Sydney Trains is the accredited operator of F1 - a fact that THNSW try and keep quiet lest other groups cry foul at how we're supposedly getting "preferential treatment". What the other groups don't understand however is the wildly difficult and unfavorable situation that creates, because ST crewing aren't allowed to allocate us crew all the while a public service stands without one that needs it.

There are only three accredited heritage operators left in NSW. NSWRM, LVR and RMS. They can plan trips months ahead using their own crews and volunteers, save any of them dying or being admitted to an aged care facility. Us? The THNSW team responsible for running F1 don't even find out if we have crew until a week beforehand and even then its open to change. One trip was run last December where we had no crew allocated until 10:30pm the night before.

The lily pond pictures that the publicity guys try and paint of THNSW look fantastic and every success is celebrated. However underneath the pond it's a dire state of affairs indeed with mud, sharks and piranhas at every turn. The expensive work done by Peter Lowry back in 2015 was panned by many RTM members as a waste of resources and yet now, we at least have a unified group willing to support all transport heritage in NSW and not just their own agenda, as can be seen by their support in handling the demise of ARHS ACT and also cross promoting trips run by LVR - things that would have been considered impossible beforehand.

3801 Ltd were masters of their own demise during this process, staunchly refusing to cooperate at every turn and instead choosing to fight through every court and minister they could get their hands on, fully expecting that life would just continue unchanged. It didn't, and now they've paid the price. And before you criticise, I am a full member of 3801 Ltd, I have been well across all of the issues involved and have also worked with them both paid and volunteer and have fond respect for many of the people.

It's easy to make armchair assessments of whats happened to 3801 over the past 30 years. Had Peter been the chair back in 2006, I have no doubt things would have turned out differently.

But in the end we're all faced with the same challenge. We're working to rebuild something in a world where the tools and skills no longer exist. We need to be prepared to admit that sometimes we will just make mistakes and fail. Sometimes several times and sometimes spectacularly.

The real challenge is what happens then. Do we give up? Or do we get back up, dust ourselves off and try again?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
All government railways are now very strict on corrupt practices. Shutting up about corrupt practices can land you in a lot of hot water with losing your job being the most likely but disposing of a Hi Railer for a $1 probably landing you in gaol. Not a great idea not upsetting the apple cart.
nswtrains
Who said anything about corrupt practices? They are simply cases of various organisations and departments making decisions about asset disposal.

The examples of Hi-Rails that I know about were from a private operator and the $1 sale is for tax reasons. The company could have chosen to auction the units but chose to "donate" them to heritage groups instead.

The sleepers are a slightly different issue but seem to fall withing the remit of one government department helping another - the tourism benefits of some Heritage operators are well know and government wants to help, they just do it on the downlow sometimes for the reasons stated by Zordmaker.

BG
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
This place at Acacia Ridge in Brisbane just built a new boiler for Gympie's C17.
Picture on their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pg/maryvalleyrattler/posts/?ref=page_internal

Boiler builder was W.D.T. (Engineers) Pty Ltd
http://wdtengineers.com.au/
  zordmaker Train Controller

Location: NSW
This place at Acacia Ridge in Brisbane just built a new boiler for Gympie's C17.
Picture on their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pg/maryvalleyrattler/posts/?ref=page_internal

Boiler builder was W.D.T. (Engineers) Pty Ltd
http://wdtengineers.com.au/
petan
Good to see innovation is alive and well up North.

Note though that the boiler in this C17 would be about a third the size of 3801's..
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
This place at Acacia Ridge in Brisbane just built a new boiler for Gympie's C17.
Picture on their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pg/maryvalleyrattler/posts/?ref=page_internal

Boiler builder was W.D.T. (Engineers) Pty Ltd
http://wdtengineers.com.au/
Good to see innovation is alive and well up North.

Note though that the boiler in this C17 would be about a third the size of 3801's..
zordmaker
True about the size comparison but a boiler is a pressure vessel and that company does pressure vessels of different sizes as per their website. My main point, as proven by the Goulburn place doing 3801 and the Sydney commercial place that did the 32 class boiler the other year, is Australian private companies do specialist pressure vessels for industrial needs on a regular basic.  
http://wdtengineers.com.au/areas-of-expertise/pressure-vessels/
  a6et Minister for Railways

This place at Acacia Ridge in Brisbane just built a new boiler for Gympie's C17.
Picture on their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pg/maryvalleyrattler/posts/?ref=page_internal

Boiler builder was W.D.T. (Engineers) Pty Ltd
http://wdtengineers.com.au/
Good to see innovation is alive and well up North.

Note though that the boiler in this C17 would be about a third the size of 3801's..
True about the size comparison but a boiler is a pressure vessel and that company does pressure vessels of different sizes as per their website. My main point, as proven by the Goulburn place doing 3801 and the Sydney commercial place that did the 32 class boiler the other year, is Australian private companies do specialist pressure vessels for industrial needs on a regular basic.  
http://wdtengineers.com.au/areas-of-expertise/pressure-vessels/
petan
Agree Petan,  There are local companies that can build boilers as found there, also repair them. Thing is that reading a bit where the Labor mob wants to bring in local content for Rail in many areas, it could be a good move for some of these companies to tray and expand their work force qualifications into areas such as boiler making and other areas of lost trades.

If something like this is not done, then I doubt that we will see steam operating on main lines into the future. Less skilled workers working part time is not going to keep things running.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

This place at Acacia Ridge in Brisbane just built a new boiler for Gympie's C17.
Picture on their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pg/maryvalleyrattler/posts/?ref=page_internal

Boiler builder was W.D.T. (Engineers) Pty Ltd
http://wdtengineers.com.au/
Good to see innovation is alive and well up North.

Note though that the boiler in this C17 would be about a third the size of 3801's..
True about the size comparison but a boiler is a pressure vessel and that company does pressure vessels of different sizes as per their website. My main point, as proven by the Goulburn place doing 3801 and the Sydney commercial place that did the 32 class boiler the other year, is Australian private companies do specialist pressure vessels for industrial needs on a regular basic.  
http://wdtengineers.com.au/areas-of-expertise/pressure-vessels/
Agree Petan,  There are local companies that can build boilers as found there, also repair them. Thing is that reading a bit where the Labor mob wants to bring in local content for Rail in many areas, it could be a good move for some of these companies to tray and expand their work force qualifications into areas such as boiler making and other areas of lost trades.

If something like this is not done, then I doubt that we will see steam operating on main lines into the future. Less skilled workers working part time is not going to keep things running.
a6et
The problem here is that skilled metal workers are getting to be a VERY RARE species,  a lot of vacancies are not even advertised as experience has shown the no one will apply for the job regardless of the wage.

Although in Britain some firms and colleges are still training new metal workers.

woodford
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This place at Acacia Ridge in Brisbane just built a new boiler for Gympie's C17.
Picture on their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pg/maryvalleyrattler/posts/?ref=page_internal

Boiler builder was W.D.T. (Engineers) Pty Ltd
http://wdtengineers.com.au/
Good to see innovation is alive and well up North.

Note though that the boiler in this C17 would be about a third the size of 3801's..
True about the size comparison but a boiler is a pressure vessel and that company does pressure vessels of different sizes as per their website. My main point, as proven by the Goulburn place doing 3801 and the Sydney commercial place that did the 32 class boiler the other year, is Australian private companies do specialist pressure vessels for industrial needs on a regular basic.  
http://wdtengineers.com.au/areas-of-expertise/pressure-vessels/
Agree Petan,  There are local companies that can build boilers as found there, also repair them. Thing is that reading a bit where the Labor mob wants to bring in local content for Rail in many areas, it could be a good move for some of these companies to tray and expand their work force qualifications into areas such as boiler making and other areas of lost trades.

If something like this is not done, then I doubt that we will see steam operating on main lines into the future. Less skilled workers working part time is not going to keep things running.
The problem here is that skilled metal workers are getting to be a VERY RARE species,  a lot of vacancies are not even advertised as experience has shown the no one will apply for the job regardless of the wage.

Although in Britain some firms and colleges are still training new metal workers.

woodford
woodford
We are fast becoming the most useless country on earth incapable of doing or making anything.
  M636C Minister for Railways

We are fast becoming the most useless country on earth incapable of doing or making anything.


In this particular case, it is much worse than that.

We can't even order a boiler from an overseas company that can make boilers and get the specification right.


It isn't the practical skills alone that we have lost but also the theoretical skill of telling someone what we want in sufficient detail.


This isn't confined to railway preservation or even railway engineering but engineering in general.


In general, management in Australia does not come from people with an engineering background.

When a senior manager asks for something, he most likely won't understand enough about it to know if it is practical or even possible. So he will go to a large legal firm or a large accountancy firm who will write a report about it. They will employ technical experts, but it is unlikely that they will have specific experience in the field concerned.


There are few apprenticeships to learn a trade, and few jobs to practice that trade.


I am reminded of the old joke: "what is the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman?" The answer was "the used car salesman knows when he is lying".


With the high usage of software in automobiles, the used car salesman may no longer know whether he is lying.


But the ignorance gets worse at higher levels of management.


Peter
  a6et Minister for Railways

We are fast becoming the most useless country on earth incapable of doing or making anything.

In this particular case, it is much worse than that.
We can't even order a boiler from an overseas company that can make boilers and get the specification right.

It isn't the practical skills alone that we have lost but also the theoretical skill of telling someone what we want in sufficient detail.

This isn't confined to railway preservation or even railway engineering but engineering in general.

In general, management in Australia does not come from people with an engineering background.
When a senior manager asks for something, he most likely won't understand enough about it to know if it is practical or even possible. So he will go to a large legal firm or a large accountancy firm who will write a report about it. They will employ technical experts, but it is unlikely that they will have specific experience in the field concerned.

There are few apprenticeships to learn a trade, and few jobs to practice that trade.

I am reminded of the old joke: "what is the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman?" The answer was "the used car salesman knows when he is lying".

With the high usage of software in automobiles, the used car salesman may no longer know whether he is lying.

But the ignorance gets worse at higher levels of management.

Peter
M636C
Peter     ___ How dare you------- Speak with such honesty and truth?

Sorrow is that those who are left and have an idea on these matters are basically considered over the hill and with only old school skills that do not apply in this modern age.

Its bad enough now, but what's it going to be like in another 5 years or more?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
M636C and a6et.
So very true from one 'over the hill' who can at least specify what is needed and old fashioned enough to see what is delivered.
There is more to a project than simply maximising the cost and minimising the product.
We seem to spend $$$ squillions and still not get long term value for money on so many projects.
  a6et Minister for Railways

M636C and a6et.
So very true from one 'over the hill' who can at least specify what is needed and old fashioned enough to see what is delivered.
There is more to a project than simply maximising the cost and minimising the product.
We seem to spend $$$ squillions and still not get long term value for money on so many projects.
YM-Mundrabilla
YM, trouble is that people who worked on them in regular service, nowadays are seen as beyond the heap. Many may not have the physical attributes to do work, but they do have the knowledge that can be passed on, providing they are listened to.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Even the heap of 'silly old bastards' who have been there and done that is subsiding into the grave .............

We are in an era where history and experience count for nothing as those in power now know everything that happened last week in dollar terms and nothing prior to last week counts for anything.

We are in the age of the double Micky Mouse know it all degree in so many (BUT NOT ALL) ways. There are still some very significant exceptions, however.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Even the heap of 'silly old bastards' who have been there and done that is subsiding into the grave .............

We are in an era where history and experience count for nothing as those in power now know everything that happened last week in dollar terms and nothing prior to last week counts for anything.

We are in the age of the double Micky Mouse know it all degree in so many (BUT NOT ALL) ways. There are still some very significant exceptions, however.
YM-Mundrabilla
There are still some very significant exceptions, however. Oh! if only!
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Even though there are training organisations on every corner these days nobody seems to want to do any real training these days. It's all theoretical never practical. Employers won't spend money to train staff because they know only too well that expenditure in training will lead to staff taking their skills elsewhere, perhaps to a competitor, most likely for higher wages.

Consider: My father entered the workforce around 1940 and retired around 1987. He sold shoes most of that time. Prior to being employed in a shoe shop to sell shoes he went to college to learn about feet in order to be able to fit shoes correctly. I wonder how many shoe salespeople today have learned their "trade" in college? Indeed how many know how to fit shoes correctly?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
Even though there are training organisations on every corner these days nobody seems to want to do any real training these days. It's all theoretical never practical. Employers won't spend money to train staff because they know only too well that expenditure in training will lead to staff taking their skills elsewhere, perhaps to a competitor, most likely for higher wages.
Graham4405
It's an own-goal for employers too: when they don't invest in training or professional development, their employees don't feel any reciprocal loyalty to them. But they have a circuit-breaker to this vicious cycle: bring in Johnny Foreigner! Just get RPLs from an RTO for your 457s and you too can lower your wage bill while ignoring the ACTU!
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a company within Australia, that could have done 3801's boiler from the getgo, are you seriously trying to tell me that there is nowhere in Australia that could have done the rebuild? I know it's all "old news" now, but I still find it hard to believe that it was shipped to Germany for the job!
Kind Regards
  M636C Minister for Railways

I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a company within Australia, that could have done 3801's boiler from the getgo, are you seriously trying to tell me that there is nowhere in Australia that could have done the rebuild? I know it's all "old news" now, but I still find it hard to believe that it was shipped to Germany for the job!
Kind Regards
lsrailfan
But if the boiler had been built in Australia, would it have been built to the correct dimensions?

If the same people that supervised and authorised the German boiler were in charge, why would the result be different?

The Germans didn't "get it wrong".
They prepared a design which was accepted as correct, and then built the boiler to that design.

It wasn't their fault that it didn't fit the locomotive.
It was the fault of whoever approved the design to which it was built.

As far as I know, none of the many other boilers built in that factory have ever not fitted the frame for which they were designed, including the hundreds built for the German State Railways.

It was not a mistake getting the Germans to build a boiler.
It was a serious mistake not ensuring that the drawings to which the boiler was built were correct.

And that wasn't the fault of anyone in Germany.

However, sending the boiler back to Germany in the vain hope that the Germans would fix our mistakes for free was futile.

Peter
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a company within Australia, that could have done 3801's boiler from the getgo, are you seriously trying to tell me that there is nowhere in Australia that could have done the rebuild? I know it's all "old news" now, but I still find it hard to believe that it was shipped to Germany for the job!
Kind Regards
But if the boiler had been built in Australia, would it have been built to the correct dimensions?

If the same people that supervised and authorised the German boiler were in charge, why would the result be different?

The Germans didn't "get it wrong".
They prepared a design which was accepted as correct, and then built the boiler to that design.

It wasn't their fault that it didn't fit the locomotive.
It was the fault of whoever approved the design to which it was built.

As far as I know, none of the many other boilers built in that factory have ever not fitted the frame for which they were designed, including the hundreds built for the German State Railways.

It was not a mistake getting the Germans to build a boiler.
It was a serious mistake not ensuring that the drawings to which the boiler was built were correct.

And that wasn't the fault of anyone in Germany.

However, sending the boiler back to Germany in the vain hope that the Germans would fix our mistakes for free was futile.

Peter
M636C
But if the plans sent to the Germans were the same as the original plans why would it have been a problems for the Germans to convert imperial to metric measurements. I don't see its too big a problem for the master race to solve.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
I find it very hard to believe that there isn't a company within Australia, that could have done 3801's boiler from the getgo, are you seriously trying to tell me that there is nowhere in Australia that could have done the rebuild? I know it's all "old news" now, but I still find it hard to believe that it was shipped to Germany for the job!
Kind Regards
lsrailfan
There is at least 3 Boilers that have been Built from Scratch In Australia in the last few years.

2 For Puffing Billy Railway, 1 for NG129  Built by ER Curtain http://www.erc.com.au/index.html and 1 for Carbon built at WE Smith who are no longer in business.

There is also some joint in Brisbane who have just built a C17 Boiler.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.