Future Sydney Metro Network

 
  TheParliamentarian_ Beginner

I was recently working on the routing for two new metro lines to be investigated upon the completion of the North West and the Metro West is moved into construction. I've also included the under construction North West, CBD and South West on the map. In addition to those 3, Metro West is there along with my two new lines.
BeachesLink Metro - Northern Beaches - Eastern Suburbs via CBD
North South Metro Link - Macquarie Park - Miranda via Bankstown, Hurstville and Olympic Park

https://tinyurl.com/sydneymetro

What do you think?

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  SinickleBird Junior Train Controller

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
Some good ideas in there. Definitely over-qualified to be a Parliamentarian.

Please bear in mind that you need each line to be self-contained - sharing the same track with another route defeats the purpose, which is to run high-frequency services, on a uniform stopping pattern. And don’t feel bound by existing heavy rail lines/interchanges. World’s best metros run self-contained lines with multiple interchanges. Check out the maps for Paris, Tokyo, London.

The Y-shaped pattern on SE line would be operationally difficult. So, perhaps Northern beaches to St Leonards then goes slightly further west, stop at Greenwich, Roswell (interchange with West), Glebe, Sydney U, pick up at Alexandria and follow your route to LaPerouse? Anzac Parade will be well served by Light Rail, if it ever completes. At the current rate of progress, your line might actually be operational before the light rail:lol:.

SImilar in the west - the north-south link is a good idea, but doesn’t need to share the route of the SW line through Bankstown to Lidcombe. Perhaps route it through A3 via Chullora (which is severely under-provisioned for public transport), with interchange to the west at Flemington? Or Homebush?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

you seem to have the illness that is "draw a line on the map and think it will be right". How in the heck is manly possible without doing a 3 point turn?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I was recently working on the routing for two new metro lines to be investigated upon the completion of the North West and the Metro West is moved into construction. I've also included the under construction North West, CBD and South West on the map. In addition to those 3, Metro West is there along with my two new lines.
BeachesLink Metro - Northern Beaches - Eastern Suburbs via CBD
North South Metro Link - Macquarie Park - Miranda via Bankstown, Hurstville and Olympic Park

https://tinyurl.com/sydneymetro

What do you think?
TheParliamentarian_

Agreed, some interesting ideas.

IMHO, too many stations at Parramatta.  15 stations in a loop?  It would take metro trains 20min to get around, and you could walk from one end of the loop to the other in that time.  Better if there were just 3 or 4, with 1 and only 1 interfacing with the heavy rail network.

Eastern Metro?  Removing heavy rail from the Easter Suburbs line creates capacity problems for T4.  But extending under-utilised line to Malabar makes a lot of sense to me.
  Transtopic Chief Train Controller

I was recently working on the routing for two new metro lines to be investigated upon the completion of the North West and the Metro West is moved into construction. I've also included the under construction North West, CBD and South West on the map. In addition to those 3, Metro West is there along with my two new lines.
BeachesLink Metro - Northern Beaches - Eastern Suburbs via CBD
North South Metro Link - Macquarie Park - Miranda via Bankstown, Hurstville and Olympic Park

https://tinyurl.com/sydneymetro

What do you think?
TheParliamentarian_
You overlooked Eastwood, which is the largest retail/commercial centre on the Northern Line between the Parramatta River and Hornsby and the most direct link between Parramatta and Macquarie Park..
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

I was recently working on the routing for two new metro lines to be investigated upon the completion of the North West and the Metro West is moved into construction. I've also included the under construction North West, CBD and South West on the map. In addition to those 3, Metro West is there along with my two new lines.
BeachesLink Metro - Northern Beaches - Eastern Suburbs via CBD
North South Metro Link - Macquarie Park - Miranda via Bankstown, Hurstville and Olympic Park

https://tinyurl.com/sydneymetro

What do you think?
TheParliamentarian_
It looks like about $100b of stations and perhaps a surface light rail may be better and just leave the metro very cheap and fast with few stations.
  TrainLover222 Junior Train Controller

Location: ...And then all stations to Central
I was recently working on the routing for two new metro lines to be investigated upon the completion of the North West and the Metro West is moved into construction. I've also included the under construction North West, CBD and South West on the map. In addition to those 3, Metro West is there along with my two new lines.
BeachesLink Metro - Northern Beaches - Eastern Suburbs via CBD
North South Metro Link - Macquarie Park - Miranda via Bankstown, Hurstville and Olympic Park

https://tinyurl.com/sydneymetro

What do you think?
TheParliamentarian_
It seems to cover the city very in-depth, but I personally would be concerned to see too much Metro expansion. My fear is that it would supersede the existing Sydney Trains system and replace it as Sydney's main rail network.

The idea was that Sydney Metro would take pressure of the rest of the system by running standalone from Cudgegong Road (now Tallawong) station in the North West and ultimately down through the CBD and on to Bankstown.

I also don't understand some of the alignments. For instance, on the map there's a Dobroyd Point station that appears to be in the way of suburban homes in Haberfield and just before that the line seems to cut across the City West Link. Just after that, Five Dock stations looks like it has just done the same thing to central Five Dock.

Are these extensions actually being considered?

Cheers
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

This map link is just what is inside the head of the TheParliamentarian_ and not official policy outside of the confirmed metro north west, cbd and south west metro and the metro west.

The metro west will be underground and it will head through those areas you mentioned or somewhere near them. The metro won't supplant Sydney trains as the sydney trains network extends to places that the metro is not designed to reach. What it might do is allow an increase in services to certain intercity areas in the future.
  Transtopic Chief Train Controller

I was recently working on the routing for two new metro lines to be investigated upon the completion of the North West and the Metro West is moved into construction. I've also included the under construction North West, CBD and South West on the map. In addition to those 3, Metro West is there along with my two new lines.
BeachesLink Metro - Northern Beaches - Eastern Suburbs via CBD
North South Metro Link - Macquarie Park - Miranda via Bankstown, Hurstville and Olympic Park

https://tinyurl.com/sydneymetro

What do you think?
It seems to cover the city very in-depth, but I personally would be concerned to see too much Metro expansion. My fear is that it would supersede the existing Sydney Trains system and replace it as Sydney's main rail network.

The idea was that Sydney Metro would take pressure of the rest of the system by running standalone from Cudgegong Road (now Tallawong) station in the North West and ultimately down through the CBD and on to Bankstown.
TrainLover222
I agree.  The metro expansion should be focussed on relatively short inner and middle ring city lines along corridors not currently serviced by rail.  It has no place servicing low density outer suburbs.  The only exception I would make is for a Northern Beaches Line, but I can't see it going beyond Mona Vale or Newport.  It should also run via Neutral Bay, Cremorne and Spit Junction, which is a much higher density area than say Northbridge, and is an area that should typically be serviced by a metro style operation.

I disagree with the Federal and State Governments' plans for the rail extensions servicing Western Sydney Airport.  The only metro line I would have is to extend the Metro West from Parramatta/Westmead, but as a longer term project.  The North/South Link from St Marys to the Airport should be part of the Sydney Trains network, which can provide a direct interim link to Parramatta on the existing Western Line. It should also be extended from the Airport to the South West Rail Link at the same time. Similarly, the future extension from Macarthur to the Airport and from St Marys to Schofields, where it would interchange with the Richmond Line and an extended Metro Northwest, should be part of the existing network.  It's outer suburbia, not typical metro territory.  By linking up with the SWRL, it would provide a continuous Cumberland Line loop from the Airport servicing Liverpool, Parramatta and Blacktown.  It could also provide a fast rail service from the Airport to the Sydney CBD much earlier via the East Hills Line express tracks.  It's ridiculous that extending the SWRL is considered to be a low priority and in fact won't even go as far as the Airport, but will require a change of trains to a metro at the so called Badgerys Creek Aerotropolis to reach it.  It beggars belief.

I also have my doubts whether the capacity of 30 or more tph for the outer reaches of the metro lines will ever be warranted.  Sydney is not London, Paris, Hong Kong or Singapore and never will be.  Even with the urban consolidation now taking place, it will remain a low density city overall.  It's therefore inevitable that the proposed and future metro lines will need to be branched to realise their full capacity potential through the CBD core and that includes Parramatta.

The current State Government appears to be reluctant to commit to any major investment in extending the existing Sydney Trains network, instead preferring expansion of the metro system, when in some instances it isn't logical, such as in the outer suburban areas.  The Sydney Trains network will remain the dominant system for well into the future and it's essential that substantially more investment is made to continue upgrading it.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

The current State Government appears to be reluctant to commit to any major investment in extending the existing Sydney Trains network, instead preferring expansion of the metro system, when in some instances it isn't logical, such as in the outer suburban areas.  The Sydney Trains network will remain the dominant system for well into the future and it's essential that substantially more investment is made to continue upgrading it.
Transtopic
I wouldn't say that, its more where would any extension go and what is the higher priority, extending into suburban woop woop or fixing the capacity issues in the central core so extensions that had more patronage actually make sense?

For me the only extension of the DD that is practical now is Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach/North Bondi. This doesn't add extra trains into the city or any other capital required to support it. The  ESR is under uterlised and Bondi area buses are very frequent, likewise the original branch to the south would have achieved similar without the need to rip the city roads up with a LR.

Other priorities over route extension is expansion of capacity on the surface western main west of Homebush.
  Transtopic Chief Train Controller


The current State Government appears to be reluctant to commit to any major investment in extending the existing Sydney Trains network, instead preferring expansion of the metro system, when in some instances it isn't logical, such as in the outer suburban areas.  The Sydney Trains network will remain the dominant system for well into the future and it's essential that substantially more investment is made to continue upgrading it.

- Transtopic


I wouldn't say that, its more where would any extension go and what is the higher priority, extending into suburban woop woop or fixing the capacity issues in the central core so extensions that had more patronage actually make sense?

For me the only extension of the DD that is practical now is Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach/North Bondi. This doesn't add extra trains into the city or any other capital required to support it. The  ESR is under uterlised and Bondi area buses are very frequent, likewise the original branch to the south would have achieved similar without the need to rip the city roads up with a LR.

Other priorities over route extension is expansion of capacity on the surface western main west of Homebush.
RTT_Rules
My comment with regard to "extending"  the existing network was referring specifically to the proposed North/South link through Western Sydney Airport and extension of the SWRL.  I agree that extension of the ESR is also another possibility, whether it be to Bondi Beach/North Bondi or to the south to Maroubra Junction to interchange with an extended light rail line, or both.  The heavy rail extension to Maroubra Junction serves a different corridor to the light rail, which could act as a feeder link south of Maroubra Junction.  A light rail extension south of Maroubra Junction would be much cheaper to construct, being wholly within the old tramway reservation to La Perouse, causing minimal disruption to local roads during construction.  

Beyond that, I don't see any further extension of the existing Sydney Trains network being warranted, at least well into the future, as it will already have covered most of the outer Sydney region.  Any further rail extensions are more likely to be warranted in the higher density inner and middle ring suburbs to areas not currently serviced by rail and I agree that they should be part of a segregated metro network with multiple stations.  I don't support conversion of any of the existing lines to metro.


The crux of my argument is that, aside from some limited extensions to the existing network, and this is where you and I agree, the overriding priority should be to channel more investment into upgrading the existing network with track amplifications and major junction remodelling in conjunction with the introduction of system-wide ATP/ATO, to improve the network's reliability and efficiency.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
My comment with regard to "extending"  the existing network was referring specifically to the proposed North/South link through Western Sydney Airport and extension of the SWRL.  I agree that extension of the ESR is also another possibility, whether it be to Bondi Beach/North Bondi or to the south to Maroubra Junction to interchange with an extended light rail line, or both.  The heavy rail extension to Maroubra Junction serves a different corridor to the light rail, which could act as a feeder link south of Maroubra Junction.  A light rail extension south of Maroubra Junction would be much cheaper to construct, being wholly within the old tramway reservation to La Perouse, causing minimal disruption to local roads during construction.  

Beyond that, I don't see any further extension of the existing Sydney Trains network being warranted, at least well into the future, as it will already have covered most of the outer Sydney region.  Any further rail extensions are more likely to be warranted in the higher density inner and middle ring suburbs to areas not currently serviced by rail and I agree that they should be part of a segregated metro network with multiple stations.  I don't support conversion of any of the existing lines to metro.


The crux of my argument is that, aside from some limited extensions to the existing network, and this is where you and I agree, the overriding priority should be to channel more investment into upgrading the existing network with track amplifications and major junction remodelling in conjunction with the introduction of system-wide ATP/ATO, to improve the network's reliability and efficiency.
Transtopic
The Leppington extension is not required for at least a decade, probably beyond 2030, so give them time. Bigger fish to fry closer to town.

Meanwhile the
- line to Sutherland needs capacity enhancement (Quad).
- South Coast line south of Waterfall needs duplication and realignment
- Homebush to Granville needs to two more tracks
- Epping to Hornsby 4 tracks
- By-pass Wollestoncraft/Waverton
- Re-alignment of Central Coast line north of Mt Colah to Woy Woy (at least)
- Removal of the early 20th century deviations on the South Main
- Probably further duplication of Richmond Line
- Quad south Main to Macurthur
- Sort of the Lidcombe-Liverpool-Bankstown Triangle

Mostly underground Metro growth will clearly be the new trackage in Sydney for the next century.
  Transtopic Chief Train Controller

The Leppington extension is not required for at least a decade, probably beyond 2030, so give them time. Bigger fish to fry closer to town.

Meanwhile the
- line to Sutherland needs capacity enhancement (Quad).
- South Coast line south of Waterfall needs duplication and realignment
- Homebush to Granville needs to two more tracks
- Epping to Hornsby 4 tracks
- By-pass Wollestoncraft/Waverton
- Re-alignment of Central Coast line north of Mt Colah to Woy Woy (at least)
- Removal of the early 20th century deviations on the South Main
- Probably further duplication of Richmond Line
- Quad south Main to Macurthur
- Sort of the Lidcombe-Liverpool-Bankstown Triangle

Mostly underground Metro growth will clearly be the new trackage in Sydney for the next century.
RTT_Rules
I don't agree that the Leppington extension wouldn't be required for at least a decade.  There will be a lot of development taking place in the Rossmore/Bringelly areas much sooner and even without the new airport, there will be an increasing demand for travel to the Sydney CBD.  It will also provide a fast rail link from the airport to the CBD much earlier than the proposed metro links.  It's fanciful to believe that Western Sydney Airport will predominantly only serve Western Sydney travellers in its early years of operation and hence the reasoning for the low priority given to providing a fast rail link to the Sydney CBD via an extended SWRL.

I do agree with your suggested infrastructure upgrades to the existing network, although by-passing Wollstonecraft/Waverton could be politically challenging.  The new metro line negates the need for this anyway.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The Leppington extension is not required for at least a decade, probably beyond 2030, so give them time. Bigger fish to fry closer to town.

Meanwhile the
- line to Sutherland needs capacity enhancement (Quad).
- South Coast line south of Waterfall needs duplication and realignment
- Homebush to Granville needs to two more tracks
- Epping to Hornsby 4 tracks
- By-pass Wollestoncraft/Waverton
- Re-alignment of Central Coast line north of Mt Colah to Woy Woy (at least)
- Removal of the early 20th century deviations on the South Main
- Probably further duplication of Richmond Line
- Quad south Main to Macurthur
- Sort of the Lidcombe-Liverpool-Bankstown Triangle

Mostly underground Metro growth will clearly be the new trackage in Sydney for the next century.
I don't agree that the Leppington extension wouldn't be required for at least a decade.  There will be a lot of development taking place in the Rossmore/Bringelly areas much sooner and even without the new airport, there will be an increasing demand for travel to the Sydney CBD.  It will also provide a fast rail link from the airport to the CBD much earlier than the proposed metro links.  It's fanciful to believe that Western Sydney Airport will predominantly only serve Western Sydney travellers in its early years of operation and hence the reasoning for the low priority given to providing a fast rail link to the Sydney CBD via an extended SWRL.

I do agree with your suggested infrastructure upgrades to the existing network, although by-passing Wollstonecraft/Waverton could be politically challenging.  The new metro line negates the need for this anyway.
Transtopic

Agreed re Leppington.  I think the stabling yards are an appalling design, as if intended to prevent future westward expansion.

IMHO the new western airport (if it ever happens), really should be connected to the SWRL via heavy rail - simply so there can be a direct Western Sydney - Kingsford Smith connection for air transfers.  I think this would massively increase the utility of the new airport for the airlines that use it: they would still be able to "connect" with SYD flights.

The issue with Sydney heavy rail is the same as it's been for the past 50+ years:  there are too many collection stations and not enough distribution capacity in the CBD hub.  

The expansions/amplifications I think Sydney HR needs is:
  • another HR sector into the CDB.  (The CBD metro doesn't really address this problem properly - just means you are running 400 tonne steel box out to Rouse Hill essentially to move people from 2500m Central to Wynyard.)
  • tripling/quading Chatswood - Hornsby, to redress the imbalances *caused* by the metro and the loss of the ECL from the HR network.
  • Extend the ESR to Maroubra (to address the problems caused by the Sydney Light rail project Smile)
  • Upgrade Sector 3 Parramatta - CBD to be a non-stop express route handling 24 tpa in under 15 minutes transit time. This would allow the Western Metro to focus on what metros should be uses for: high frequency, tight station spacing etc.  
  • This more than anything would help allow Eastern and Western Sydney to function as a single unit, regardless of the modes of PT within each local region.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


Meanwhile the
- line to Sutherland needs capacity enhancement (Quad).
RTT_Rules

Not really needed.  Where would all this extra capacity go in the CBD?


- South Coast line south of Waterfall needs duplication and realignment
RTT_Rules

This line is already duplicated as far as Ununderra.  South of Ununderra there are crossing loops to support a 15min frequency service, but peak service is every 30 min and base load is every 60 minutes.

On weekends (1hr frequency), quite often the route between Waterfall and Thirroul is operated single track, to allow maintenance on the unused road.


- Homebush to Granville needs to two more tracks
RTT_Rules

Again, not really needed IMHO.  In a very real sense, these tracks already exist: Cabramatta->Lidcombe via Regents Park.


- Epping to Hornsby 4 tracks
RTT_Rules

I don't entirely disagree with this, other than to suggest this would be better between Chatswood and Hornsby.  Sector 3 is currently badly imbalanced with too much on the western side, a problem the NWRL/ECL/CBD ,metro exacerbates.  IMHO it makes more sense to route more central coast traffic via the North Shore (interfacing with the metro at Chatswood rather than Central).


- By-pass Wollestoncraft/Waverton
RTT_Rules

I think everyone, bar the residents of Wollestoncraft and Waverton agree with this.  Bustitution or LRT from St Leonards to Nth Sydney/Milsons Pt.


- Re-alignment of Central Coast line north of Mt Colah to Woy Woy (at least)
RTT_Rules

Completely agree.


- Removal of the early 20th century deviations on the South Main
RTT_Rules

Can you please elaborate on this?


- Probably further duplication of Richmond Line
RTT_Rules

Probably not needed, and futile unless there are upgrades to CBD HR capacity.

ATM I see very little point in extending duplication beyond the NWRL Metro interface.


- Quad south Main to Macurthur
RTT_Rules

Again, not needed, and futile without CBD upgrades.  Quadding Revesby to Glenfield should take priority if the SWRL is going to be serving multiple lines (ie Western Airport, Bringelly & Camden/Oran Park).


- Sort of the Lidcombe-Liverpool-Bankstown Triangle
RTT_Rules

Agreed, but easier said than done.

This problem (that Liverpool has three routes to the city, all of them too slow, and all of them needing to be serviced) is exactly the sort of problem these "missing link" projects create, and it exactly the sort of problem new metros paralleling existing routes are going to create.  

My view is the best solution is a new HR route into the city that services the Inner West, Lidcombe-Bankstown and Lidcombe-Liverpool routes.  The CBD metro ought to feed the Western Metro rather than the Bankstown line.

It could be another mode, but this would mean either terminating the line at Cabramatta rather than Liverpool, or having to extend new trackage to Liverpool to support a new incompatible mode.

Mostly underground Metro growth will clearly be the new trackage in Sydney for the next century.

I this this is right, but I think it is far from the wisest course of action.  

IMHO we should be thinking 20-50-100 years ahead, to when Sydney has a population of 10,20,50 million, and we should be reserving surface rail/transport corridors to service for that purpose now.  ATM "long term" is considered after the next change of government.
  Transtopic Chief Train Controller


Agreed re Leppington.  I think the stabling yards are an appalling design, as if intended to prevent future westward expansion.

IMHO the new western airport (if it ever happens), really should be connected to the SWRL via heavy rail - simply so there can be a direct Western Sydney - Kingsford Smith connection for air transfers.  I think this would massively increase the utility of the new airport for the airlines that use it: they would still be able to "connect" with SYD flights.

The issue with Sydney heavy rail is the same as it's been for the past 50+ years:  there are too many collection stations and not enough distribution capacity in the CBD hub.  

The expansions/amplifications I think Sydney HR needs is:
  • another HR sector into the CDB.  (The CBD metro doesn't really address this problem properly - just means you are running 400 tonne steel box out to Rouse Hill essentially to move people from 2500m Central to Wynyard.)
  • tripling/quading Chatswood - Hornsby, to redress the imbalances *caused* by the metro and the loss of the ECL from the HR network.
  • Extend the ESR to Maroubra (to address the problems caused by the Sydney Light rail project Smile)
  • Upgrade Sector 3 Parramatta - CBD to be a non-stop express route handling 24 tpa in under 15 minutes transit time. This would allow the Western Metro to focus on what metros should be uses for: high frequency, tight station spacing etc.  
  • This more than anything would help allow Eastern and Western Sydney to function as a single unit, regardless of the modes of PT within each local region.
djf01
Before the metro strategy and even the Western Sydney Airport proposal, there had been a long-standing plan to extend the SWRL from Leppington to St Marys and at least Narellan to service the South-West Growth Region, which is as big if not bigger than the equivalent North West Growth Region.  That hasn't changed.  It's my understanding that the Leppington stabling yards provided for an extension of the main running tracks to the west in the future.  It's a no-brainer to extend the SWRL before any other link. Let's face it, the only reason it's been given a low priority is because it doesn't fit into their metro agenda.

Agree with you about another HR sector into the CBD, which I neglected to mention in my response to RTT.  This could be provided by an express tunnel from Granville or thereabouts to the CBD, with perhaps one intermediate station at Strathfield, continuing along the previously proposed City Relief Line to Wynyard/Barangaroo to interchange with the CBD Metro.  It would service both Western and South Line express services freeing up capacity on the Inner West Local and Suburban tracks.  It would allow for the reinstatement of Liverpool via Regents Park services on the Suburban tracks, shared with the Northern Line services from Strathfield, running through the CBD to the North Shore Line.  It would also allow for a single all stations operating pattern at greater frequency on the Inner West Local Line.

I'm not sure that tripling or quading the North Shore Line from Chatswood to Hornsby would be warranted.  The imbalance of services from the west via the CBD could be accommodated by terminating more services at North Sydney, Lindfield or Gordon.  I can't see the point of running more CCN services via the North Shore Line, when they will have an unimpeded express run on the Northern Line via Strathfield once the quad is completed from Epping to Strathfield as part of Stage 2 of the Northern Sydney Freight Line upgrade. That also includes extension of the third track from Thornleigh to Hornsby.  The eventual completion of the quad from Epping to Hornsby is probably a long way off.  At least failed Up freight trains can run downhill.  

The upgrade of Sector 3 (T1) from Parramatta to the CBD for a fast express service could be achieved relatively quickly, utilising the main tracks to Sydney Terminal as an interim measure.  Eventually, it would be supplanted by the express tunnel and City Relief Line as suggested above.  Contrary to the government's assertion, the Metro West doesn't provide any relief on the Western Line for outer suburban commuters.  It services a different corridor through the Inner West with multiple stations along its route, which as you say is what metros typically do.

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